JZG

Here is a bit of info some of you may be interested in. I would love to try one of these if only $ permitted.

From email...


"...We just delivered our 40th unit today; feedback has been positive for function and fitment, and quite negative for delivery, which is understandable, given that the 40 we've received and delivered is less than 10% of what we have on order.

The product sells itself; if BWTS can get the lead time issues behind them, all will be well, and we expect smooth sailing by end of summer."



"....Since there are very few 'identical' turbine trim crossovers in the EFR family, it's hard to do a fair comparison, but yes, the Gamma Ti wheels respond significantly quicker than any similar wheel trim in Inconel, including the popular Garrett GT Series. They respond as close to instantly as you could ever imagine.

We did a conversion from a Precision 62/65 unit to the EFR8374, and the engine picked up 55lb/ft of torque, at 400rpm lower than with the PTE unit. It also made 40+HP peak more than the PTE; we made 705RWHP on a Supra 2JZ engine, at 31psi. It would only manage to peak at around 26psi with the PTE unit, and the increase over the PTE was noted at 26psi; the PTE made 607, and the EFR made 650."




(BTW the EFR8374 has a 62mm compressor inducer also)

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

The gamma wheels seem to be proving their worth but I've met few people who like fitting the turbo's themselves, having everything lumped on there creates a need for a considerably larger envelope to fit it in. That's not a knock on the turbo itself but when I had one in my hands the first thing I thought was this things needs a good amount of space. That was only confirmed by a good friend at another shop who said he likes the idea but thinks it creates a whole new set of issues after building a few setups with them. As far as delivery goes all turbo manufacturers have delays they don't have their own foundries (precision) and/or the performance divisions are about 1-2% of their total production (Garrett/BW) so until they get the product fully integrated into the line new product will be on backorder constantly for roughly the first year after release.

~S~

RXtacy

iTrader: (7)

Do we have any empirical evidence whether the internal waste gates will flow enough to prevent creep or not?

indio84

iTrader: (7)

good question

Havoc

Personally if I went one, id just go the one without the internal WG and stick with a external gate that we all know will work with a rotor.

Jobro

iTrader: (2)

Honest to god, I am a bit skeptic of the EFR marketing.

If you want to be pessimistic about the part, from the outside it looks like I couldn't even buy one.

Is borg warner holding off selling them to sources that are not approved installer customers or even people that have a conflict of interest to report they are the best thing going?

If the only people that have them are installers who sell them and they are only installing them on client cars well Borg Warner is actually keeping the part away from purebred enthusiast without a vested interest in the product becoming the must have part?

This is a damn good way to let internet hype keep snowballing until enough bottom feeders and regurgitaors who have no hope of ever buying on just propagate the exaggerations of how good they are.

How come I can't find any information on how a EFR8374 performs on any of the following engines 1jz,2jz,rb26det,rb30det,12a,13b I could go on. I emphasise the NEED FOR PROOF.

1+ years of biased results and marketing is going to do something very good for the products image.

Please rebut with datalogs, pictures of installs and 1/4 mile and street movies

I know there is a movie on youtube of a twin turbo nissan but that is pretty far away from showing movies of the dyno screen test results like for eg turblown do on this site.

T-R-C

Has anyone seen the posted the weights of two comparable sized turbine wheels such as above?

got_hp

you sound like a conspiracy theorist or something, lol

the reason you cant find result is because these turbos haven't even gotten into customer hands yet.
the twin scroll turbos sized for the applications you mentioned are delayed. i saw a recent post saying if you order one today, you wont get it for possibly another 8-12 weeks.

the internet age makes people forget that sometimes seeing results take time.

first, the shops need to actually get the turbos.
then they need to build new manifold for turbo, since the integrated wastegate and large size probably wont work with most existing manifold designs.
then they need to finish whatever project the turbo is going on, and do their testing.
even then, not all the shops that do this actually end up posting any of their results on forums.

it might be a few more months before we see any real world optimized testing of the larger EFR turbos.

if you want the most recent info on EFR stuff, i would call up or email Geoff @ Full-Race.com . They are well known for their badass manifolds, and hes also very excited about the EFR line and has posted quite a bit of good info on them so far on supraforums.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

Asking a company that's very heavily invested in selling and marketing the turbos for relatively unbiased data is a waste of time. Full Race is part of the hype. I would wait for results from someone who can be more objective (of course no testing is 100% free of bias).

got_hp

thats a very valid concern IMO, but id be very surprised if they designed a wastegate to be inadequate for the amount of air the turbo flows that they attached it to.

the idea that internal wastegates are inadequate generally comes from OEM turbos that people turn up the boost above the level it was designed for. the internal gate flows enough for what it was designed for.

if BW designed these turbos with performance enthusiasts in mind, they would be making a huge mistake by implementing an inadequate wastegate.

we will have to wait and see once theyve been properly tested on some big hp cars.

got_hp

what i initially meant was you could call him for info on WHEN people might be getting these turbos in their hands, since he is up to date on that info, and not just internet rumors.

however, since you mentioned bias, it works both ways. companies that dont sell them have a vested interest in downplaying is disparaging them, to promote whatever they sell. ive seen people posting just as much negative hype as positive, without any shred of testing evidence.

the only way to truly find unbiased opinion would be to find a shop that sells NO product lines themselves, but tests them all in max effort applications and reports their procedures and results?
i doubt this exists.

i have no reason at all to defend or disparage the turbos for any reason... im just interested in seeing REAL results, and i just get annoyed seeing people complaining about stuff or reinforcing negative assumptions for something that real world results havent even been posted yet.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

Agreed. I myself have to try not to let my distaste for hype-based marketing cloud my judgment.

Jobro

iTrader: (2)

Well maybe they should stop the trash talk and get some accredited dyno data logs out there and some movies.

If would be a safe bet to put a EFR8374 1.05 against a T04Z 1.0 and at least show close but slightly better power/response.

I already know to a real engineer the difference will be not worth the price difference.

ElCapoRx7

I ordered my 9180 in January and was told it would be releases April 19th..... With that said I still have not received my turbo yet. No rush yet since I haven't completed my engine and still have other stuff I need to buy but once I am to the point where I can't get any further without my turbo then I will become to grow impatient

ScorpionT

iTrader: (3)

Understandable, its always good to look at things objectively.

I have already had two EFR turbos, all I did was order them early. BW isnt keeping them away from non-authorized dealers, they just havent produced many so far.

TiAl is approx half the weight of a similarly sized 713C inconel wheel.

Ive talked to Geoff on several occasions and he doesnt look at things from the fanboy approach, but from a technical approach. Full Race is a big part of the EFR line, its something they helped to make happen. They dont just promote it because its a BW product, but because it works.

Its good to look at things objectively, but remember the skepticism you had towards billet wheels, and how your understanding has changed that.

The 9180 is close in size to a T04Z, with a slightly larger turbine wheel.

Its really up to the market and whether consumers can or can not afford the price difference. If you have a backyard built turbo kit with all used parts, are you going to be able to justify $1500+ on the newest turbo? Not likely. What about someone who tracks his car every weekend and has $15000+ in the motor alone? Im sure he would have no problem spending the money.

Do you have a background in engineering? It doesnt sound like it, so how would you be able to say what an engineer would think? I DO have a background in engineering, and I can say the EFR line is quite good. However, it doesnt make sense to look at the price from an engineering standpoint. Thats like deciding what color to paint your house, strictly from a manufacturers position.

Features like dual ceramic ball bearings (durable), stainless turbine housings (lightweight, look nice), built in compressor bypass (saves money/time), internally gated twin scroll housings (convenient and space saving), and billet compressor wheels (obvious reasons) are all GREAT from this consumer's point of view.

the_glass_man

iTrader: (2)

Someday the 9180 will be mine. Until there's a little more feedback and you can actually purchase one of these I'll have to be happy with my GT35R. I am thankful that these companies are now finally taking the initiative to offer newer technology on aftermarket turbos.

Jobro

iTrader: (2)

Ow awesome, please publish some test results then!!!!

I will accept comma delimited xls showing the following parameters

time scale
Throttle Position (%)
MAP (and whatever units)
RPM
IGN timing
split timing
injection duty primary
injection duty secondary
raw pulsewidth primary (mS)
raw pulsewidth secondary (ms)
wb02 reading
fuel type
road conditions
approx ambient
altitude


prefer something with more than 10 samples per second! I already know you won't deliver so

Bitchn7

would be nice to know when the 9180 will be available. Cant wait to hear some results

ScorpionT

iTrader: (3)

I sold one already, and the other went to a friend to build a manifold/downpipe for me. I dont always use every turbo I buy, but I do like to be one of the first to get my hands on the newest ones available.

I was told sometime around the end of July to early August.

the_glass_man

iTrader: (2)

I thought this was an interesting read.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2135597

Jobro

iTrader: (2)

Cool nice results. As a graduate engineer (hons) who does data analysis on a daily basis working on commercial instrumentation.

The test results show the warner is slower building boost and makes a handful more horsepower. The measurements say the warner is nearly identical except has a few mere mm more turbine wheel.

Well..... What else would you think would happen.

20BHP is not worth 200rpm in spool. The weight saying has moot effect at least on high throttle low RPM minimal energy spool. It possibly is better when there is high energy available and you have a rapid demand for quick transient rise, but there is no data to prove this.

Also the authors deducations and justification for the product based on 'road feel' well where is the data dip ****. That reeks of I've gotta say something nice about the product.


So in summary.

Market Price point - FAIL
Size and packaging - FAIL
Compressor wheel match to high flow / low boost setups - FAIL
Product Availabilty - FAIL

The only thing this product has had a success on is bullshit positive internet hype...

JZG

How well did you look at the graphs?? This looks like a win to me in terms of spool with out sacrificing power.
Choose the external gate option and size is reduced somewhat.
Last time I checked the EFR 7670 was cheaper than a GTX3582.

It's all just speculation until there are a few rotors running them, but if nothing else it looks promising.

fd_neal

iTrader: (4)

Did you skip the section that compared the EFR7670 to the GTX3076, which are the 2 compareable turbos, the GTX outperformed it everywhere untill 6000+ rpm where the larger turbine of the GTX made a touch more power. The real question that comes up to me (that may have been answered but I didnt make it past the first page) is why at the same boost the larger GTX3582 really had zero advantages? I would have expected more power at the cost of spool.

ElCapoRx7

I got an idea! How about we just wait till these things are actually tested on a 13B and stop all this pointless bickering about what turbo looks better then what on paper or on test that such and such magazine did. As soon as I get my 9180 twinscrill in I will put my engine together and put up some results from one of these things on a 13B w/ semi p ports.

renkenkyo

iTrader: (6)

I would tend to agree with this statement, as I've seen hugely varying results of a turbo from car to car, and tune to tune.

As far as the results on the Subaru forum, the GTX30 is making more power much earlier than the EFR but has a lower peak. I'm no expert, but based on what limited knowledge I do have, the area under the curve is the "work" the turbo is doing. At least looking at the graphs, the EFR is trading a small "work" band at the 6000+ rpm range but loses much more in the earlier power range. If these guys are tuning for peak power, I can see where the EFR is more desirable, but the car have a worse power band. Of course actually driving data has been shown to vary quite a bit from dyno graphs anyway so it really isn't a good point of comparison.