Holset One Piece Sliding Nozzle VGT
01-04-09, 06:17 AM
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Holset One Piece Sliding Nozzle VGT
Has anyone looked at the Holset range of Variable Geometry Turbos to see if they would be suitable for rotary engine applications. Unlike the Garrent pivoting vane style VGT the Holset VGT have a one piece sliding vane assembly.
The Holset design is a lot less complex, with few moving parts and only one large vane assembly, I doubt that he large one piece van assembly would have the same heat issues of the much smaller piloting vanes. I aslo doubt the the simplier one piece vane assembly would jam as easily as the complex multi part pivoting vane assembly.
Anyway have a read for yourself, I'd be interest to see what other think about the design.
See pages 11-18 of PDF
VGT on Holset website
The Holset design is a lot less complex, with few moving parts and only one large vane assembly, I doubt that he large one piece van assembly would have the same heat issues of the much smaller piloting vanes. I aslo doubt the the simplier one piece vane assembly would jam as easily as the complex multi part pivoting vane assembly.
Anyway have a read for yourself, I'd be interest to see what other think about the design.
See pages 11-18 of PDF
VGT on Holset website
01-04-09, 03:02 PM
#3
Most rotating-vane type can't anyway, and the ones that do require very expensive materials. Thats why AFAIK only Porsche has used VGTs on a production gasoline engine. I haven't heard of this type before, although it makes a lot of sense since its kind-of a variable version of the twin-scroll idea thats been around for a while now.
However, you still have the actuators or electronics mounted to the turbo, and still have to lubricate those moving parts as well as keeping stuff from building up on them or keeping them from changing clearances too much with temperature. That being said, this design does seem a bit more heat-resistant.
Even if you were to put one on a 7, how would you control it? To make the best use you'd need to integrate it into the ECU so that it was controlled off airflow and target boost levels. You'd probably also need to electronically control the wastegate to get the most out of the system and avoid boost oscillations.
However, you still have the actuators or electronics mounted to the turbo, and still have to lubricate those moving parts as well as keeping stuff from building up on them or keeping them from changing clearances too much with temperature. That being said, this design does seem a bit more heat-resistant.
Even if you were to put one on a 7, how would you control it? To make the best use you'd need to integrate it into the ECU so that it was controlled off airflow and target boost levels. You'd probably also need to electronically control the wastegate to get the most out of the system and avoid boost oscillations.
05-20-09, 06:54 PM
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Most rotating-vane type can't anyway, and the ones that do require very expensive materials. Thats why AFAIK only Porsche has used VGTs on a production gasoline engine. I haven't heard of this type before, although it makes a lot of sense since its kind-of a variable version of the twin-scroll idea thats been around for a while now.
However, you still have the actuators or electronics mounted to the turbo, and still have to lubricate those moving parts as well as keeping stuff from building up on them or keeping them from changing clearances too much with temperature. That being said, this design does seem a bit more heat-resistant.
Even if you were to put one on a 7, how would you control it? To make the best use you'd need to integrate it into the ECU so that it was controlled off airflow and target boost levels. You'd probably also need to electronically control the wastegate to get the most out of the system and avoid boost oscillations.
However, you still have the actuators or electronics mounted to the turbo, and still have to lubricate those moving parts as well as keeping stuff from building up on them or keeping them from changing clearances too much with temperature. That being said, this design does seem a bit more heat-resistant.
Even if you were to put one on a 7, how would you control it? To make the best use you'd need to integrate it into the ECU so that it was controlled off airflow and target boost levels. You'd probably also need to electronically control the wastegate to get the most out of the system and avoid boost oscillations.
Actually Dodge did use a VGT turbo on a vehicle other than thier trucks. They used a VNT turbo on 89 Shelby CSX. it was also a variable vein turbo.. just a fyi. but from what i have read the VNT turbos cant take the egts that well.
05-20-09, 10:21 PM
#7
http://www.google.com/patents?id=EnyMAAAAEBAJ&dq=AIT+turbo+charger+blayl ock
This one works on gas engines... I got scoffed at here a couple years ago even mentioning it. Patent has finally been awarded as of January 2009. The feeling of driving turbo vehicles with this type of turbo vs the normal type is unreal. Instant boost.
This one works on gas engines... I got scoffed at here a couple years ago even mentioning it. Patent has finally been awarded as of January 2009. The feeling of driving turbo vehicles with this type of turbo vs the normal type is unreal. Instant boost.
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05-23-09, 08:37 PM
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Please somebody help!!!
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Someone on HMT strapped one to a Talon TSI, he attached a wastegate actuator to the lever assembly that moves the vanes.
I'd like to try it, but I'd certainly also like to watch someone else work out the kinks.
I have pinouts for the he351ve kicking around somewhere, i'll have to dig them up.
I'd like to try it, but I'd certainly also like to watch someone else work out the kinks.
I have pinouts for the he351ve kicking around somewhere, i'll have to dig them up.
05-23-09, 11:26 PM
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Post them up - i have some from alldata somewhere but they are always hard to find. Holset uses proprietary J1939 CAN commands to actuate the turbo, well thats at least what delphi's engineers said.. they may have been bullshitting as they didnt seem too interested in giving much infro. however there may be the possibility that the actuator will operate using a PWM signal.
05-23-09, 11:50 PM
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Please somebody help!!!
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Seems to me I have a pdf too, I'll do some more digging.
The controller is soldered in (cant be removed for more inspection)and controls a 3 phase, yes 3 phase stepper motor.
It has a 2 gears for a reduction from the motor itself.
Now two pins have a 120ohm resistor possible for the bus connection and the others are high resistance.
It has a low dropout voltage regulator for 5v.
It has a 2 gears for a reduction from the motor itself.
Now two pins have a 120ohm resistor possible for the bus connection and the others are high resistance.
It has a low dropout voltage regulator for 5v.
it communicates on the j1939 port
10-15-09, 12:50 PM
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This is the turbo I will be using on my 13B TII. We are still building up the car, and have not tuned it yet. All the plumbing is done for this turbo (it is in front of the engine and sideways). We use these turbos at work so I know a lot about them.
They seem pretty robust, but they do have some problems:
They are very sensitive to foreign object damage to the nozzle ring (stator). When the vanes get just a small ding in them they will no longer slide into the guide ring. This could be fixed by filing down the dings, but turbine efficiency would go down a bit every time you had to do this. Just don't send debris through them...
Also, sometimes the nozzle will get sooted up and result in high actuator motor effort. This could theoretically be cleaned off as well.
A fun fact is that the HE531Ve uses the exact same compressor wheel as the HX55. and I hear people have run thoes turbos on RX7 (for whatever that's worth).
They seem pretty robust, but they do have some problems:
They are very sensitive to foreign object damage to the nozzle ring (stator). When the vanes get just a small ding in them they will no longer slide into the guide ring. This could be fixed by filing down the dings, but turbine efficiency would go down a bit every time you had to do this. Just don't send debris through them...
Also, sometimes the nozzle will get sooted up and result in high actuator motor effort. This could theoretically be cleaned off as well.
A fun fact is that the HE531Ve uses the exact same compressor wheel as the HX55. and I hear people have run thoes turbos on RX7 (for whatever that's worth).
12-20-09, 01:14 PM
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I think these turbo are made to handle more heat then the older one. I have a 08 dodge with that turbo on it. When the truck goes into regen mode it make the egt climb up 1300f at cruise to clean soot out of the dpf int the exhaust. I have had mine as high 1600f without issues towing up long hills. I pick up a couple of these turbo cheap I gonna try one on my 13brew. There are also company now making standalone controllers for that turbo.
12-20-09, 06:11 PM
#13
Holset HE351VE compressor is very similar in peak flow capability to 60-1 or GT3582R compressors according to my previous research.
From that talon worklog he could not control peak boost just using the vanes, so we will require a decent external wastegate in addition.
You could do it pretty easily by operating the vanes to open at say 7-12psi and have the wastegate control peak boost around 15+.
The real problem is a HE351VE weights approximately 40lbs which is a fair bit of weight and its not compact either.
From that talon worklog he could not control peak boost just using the vanes, so we will require a decent external wastegate in addition.
You could do it pretty easily by operating the vanes to open at say 7-12psi and have the wastegate control peak boost around 15+.
The real problem is a HE351VE weights approximately 40lbs which is a fair bit of weight and its not compact either.
12-20-09, 07:09 PM
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Holset HE351VE compressor is very similar in peak flow capability to 60-1 or GT3582R compressors according to my previous research.
From that talon worklog he could not control peak boost just using the vanes, so we will require a decent external wastegate in addition.
You could do it pretty easily by operating the vanes to open at say 7-12psi and have the wastegate control peak boost around 15+.
The real problem is a HE351VE weights approximately 40lbs which is a fair bit of weight and its not compact either.
From that talon worklog he could not control peak boost just using the vanes, so we will require a decent external wastegate in addition.
You could do it pretty easily by operating the vanes to open at say 7-12psi and have the wastegate control peak boost around 15+.
The real problem is a HE351VE weights approximately 40lbs which is a fair bit of weight and its not compact either.
ha yes its pretty heavy.. my mail man wouldn't deliver it to my house because it was so heavy. the exhaust housing is so large that the only good location for the turbo is in front of the engine. this obviously requires a long runner manifold to be built also the angle of the compressor outlet is not optimal for the use of a front mount once the turbo is located in front of the engine.. these problems are not too difficult to solve if you can fabricate but you need to build a pretty serious support system for the turbo, be able to cut flanges and build a manifold.
ive yet to decide if a $75 500hp turbo is worth all the work and hassle.
05-15-10, 08:56 PM
#15
ha yes its pretty heavy.. my mail man wouldn't deliver it to my house because it was so heavy. the exhaust housing is so large that the only good location for the turbo is in front of the engine. this obviously requires a long runner manifold to be built also the angle of the compressor outlet is not optimal for the use of a front mount once the turbo is located in front of the engine.. these problems are not too difficult to solve if you can fabricate but you need to build a pretty serious support system for the turbo, be able to cut flanges and build a manifold.
ive yet to decide if a $75 500hp turbo is worth all the work and hassle.
ive yet to decide if a $75 500hp turbo is worth all the work and hassle.
I was thinking about whether it would be feasible to get a smaller more common housings machined and put them on. Like an 'S' cover and a T4 rear housing. But I think the front is held on using a large vband GT42 style.
08-18-21, 04:22 AM
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Bringing this back to life. Most of the Holset VGT threads are dated or using the VGT version of the HX35 which IMO is extremely small (and easy to over spin).
Anyone here that ran or is running a properly size Holset VGT turbo (like a HE500VG or HX55V)?
I got both turbos, I'm considering using the HX55V in my next build.
Anyone here that ran or is running a properly size Holset VGT turbo (like a HE500VG or HX55V)?
I got both turbos, I'm considering using the HX55V in my next build.
08-18-21, 06:57 AM
#17
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The compressor and turbine design, both in terms of efficiency and inertia in the new performance turbos probably eclipses any benefits of those VGT turbos. The fact that VE will change potentially quite a lot at the same intake manifold pressure with blade angle changes, when most people are using conventional speed density tunes on aftermarket ecus with only intake manifold pressure as a reference, not a mass flow sensor or intake and exhaust sensor and IMP:EMP/RPM main fuel table means it probably isn't worth the effort unless you want the technical challenge of getting the tune right. Staging intake runners for more bottom end torque is probably more worthwhile.
08-18-21, 07:37 AM
#18
I ran a HE351VE on a 13BT for a year. It's gigantic and weighs a ton. I deleted the servo controls and added a spring-return air cylinder with a solenoid that was controlled by the ECU. The air cylinder had a rod-end on it that could be adjusted to add pre-load and set the max/min state of the VGT.
Long store short, it worked okay, but not great. At the smaller-AR settings, it was too restrictive. Like enough that the engine was noticeably quieter. I eventually set it up to switch from small-AR to large-AR at a crossover point, like VVT. The turbo ended up cracking my manifold after a year and I sold it and went to a better ball-bearing turbo and never looked back.
Long store short, it worked okay, but not great. At the smaller-AR settings, it was too restrictive. Like enough that the engine was noticeably quieter. I eventually set it up to switch from small-AR to large-AR at a crossover point, like VVT. The turbo ended up cracking my manifold after a year and I sold it and went to a better ball-bearing turbo and never looked back.
08-18-21, 08:19 AM
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The compressor and turbine design, both in terms of efficiency and inertia in the new performance turbos probably eclipses any benefits of those VGT turbos. The fact that VE will change potentially quite a lot at the same intake manifold pressure with blade angle changes, when most people are using conventional speed density tunes on aftermarket ecus with only intake manifold pressure as a reference, not a mass flow sensor or intake and exhaust sensor and IMP:EMP/RPM main fuel table means it probably isn't worth the effort unless you want the technical challenge of getting the tune right. Staging intake runners for more bottom end torque is probably more worthwhile.
08-18-21, 08:28 AM
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I ran a HE351VE on a 13BT for a year. It's gigantic and weighs a ton. I deleted the servo controls and added a spring-return air cylinder with a solenoid that was controlled by the ECU. The air cylinder had a rod-end on it that could be adjusted to add pre-load and set the max/min state of the VGT.
Long store short, it worked okay, but not great. At the smaller-AR settings, it was too restrictive. Like enough that the engine was noticeably quieter. I eventually set it up to switch from small-AR to large-AR at a crossover point, like VVT. The turbo ended up cracking my manifold after a year and I sold it and went to a better ball-bearing turbo and never looked back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLV88l6FNXc
Long store short, it worked okay, but not great. At the smaller-AR settings, it was too restrictive. Like enough that the engine was noticeably quieter. I eventually set it up to switch from small-AR to large-AR at a crossover point, like VVT. The turbo ended up cracking my manifold after a year and I sold it and went to a better ball-bearing turbo and never looked back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLV88l6FNXc
I did see your build before, IMO the HE351VE is too small for the 13b. I mean, a normal HX35 (which is similar to the HE351) it's already on the small side for a 13b bridgeported, that plus having the AR in the smallest form will choke the engine.
My question goes more for a bigger unit like the HE500VG (HX55 equivalent), where it is big even when the AR is in the smallest form.
I learned from your build that temperature wasn't an issue for that turbo (even if you possibly overdriven it ). Many people were wondering if a VGT will last with the EGT of a rotary engine.
How hard was it to tune the car?
08-18-21, 11:58 AM
#21
Old [Sch|F]ool
FWIW, Dodge gave up on VNT because it doesn't make much sense on a gasoline engine.
It works okay on Diesels because their intakes are unthrottled and power is controlled strictly by fueling, so power created is almost independent of boost pressure as long as there is enough air for the fuel.
It works okay on Diesels because their intakes are unthrottled and power is controlled strictly by fueling, so power created is almost independent of boost pressure as long as there is enough air for the fuel.
08-21-21, 01:26 PM
#22
seems to me it’d be better to go with a newer high tech standard turbo and investing in an electronic wastegate gate system instead
I suppose the cost is holding it back and why they’re not so prevalent yet, but the ability to provide for various control strategies under a wide variety of conditions opens a whole new landscape for potential performance gains that was not easily achievable before, imo.
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I suppose the cost is holding it back and why they’re not so prevalent yet, but the ability to provide for various control strategies under a wide variety of conditions opens a whole new landscape for potential performance gains that was not easily achievable before, imo.
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