eplusz

Hello everybody,

I have this topic posted elsewhere but think it's best suited here, hope you can help!
I'm currently putting my setup together and needed some advise what to do with fueling and turbo.. Hope you have the time to read it through..

First up.. i'm shooting for 450-500hp on stock port and pump gas, engine has been rebuild. I only use the car on the streets but occasionally want to track it. Would like to see 1 bar at around 3500 rpm not later then 4k rpm

Setup so far:
- Stockport Engine (would like to keep it stockport)
- Adaptronic PnP select ECU (currently have PFC installed)
- AEM Smart coils w/ MSD superconductor wires
- Walbro 400LPH pump (yet to buy)
- ID injectors pri=725/1000(?) sec=2000
- Borg warner S300SX-E (which one?)
- Equal length manifold w/ twin tial mvs 38 gates (48mm diameter tubing)
- 3" Downpipe (/w resonator)
- RW Throttle body w/ greddy Elbow (ported UIM)
- Radtech V-mount IC setup
- Craig davies EWP
- Meth Injection (yet to buy)
- RX-Racing LIM (yet to buy)

I have everything on the list except the ones in red or stated otherwise, that's what my questions are about..

For the turbo:
I'm going for the new Borg warner SXE line turbo (efr would be a dream but is a tad to expensive now) bUT don't know which one would suit my needs and will get me the 450-500hp i want.. What would you advise me going for on stock ports to hit 500hp with 1 bar below 4k rpm? The picture below with the red is what i had in mind but debating whether it is good for my goals..

Click the image to open in full size.
I'm open for suggestions to other turbo's but have my eyes on the new BW SXE just not one in particular..

As for my Fuel setup:
I don't know what to go with, i have the ID 725cc and 1000cc and am planning to run either one as primaries and ID2000 secondaries, don't know if ID1000 are to big to run as primaries on stockport but don't know what to use as secondaries...I still need to decide on a FPR, so need advise on which is best to suit my goals.. Also need help figuring out what lines to run from the tank to the rails and back FEED & RETURN and either running in series or parallel.
Fuel rails is one thing i will decide on later on as i'm debating whether to buy the RX-racing LIM or not.

If there's more that i need to consider please tell

The car it's going in..

96fd3s

I think your dreaming, unless you get an EFR

I just got done with my S360 setup and boost comes on at about 2.7k rpm and full boost (12psi in my case) is at about 4.5k rpm. Not sure it would be the best turbo for 500rwhp, (ideally you would probably want a size bigger), which would mean spool is only going to get slower then what I mentioned.

You cant have everything...unless you buy an EFR..then you can, lol

You can see my dyno graphs in the "popular go to turbo's" thread. The S360 was just getting started. Torque was increasing really fast and will keep climbing quickly with more boost. Don't get too hung up on "max hp" Its just a silly number.
A car with more torque, lower in the RPM range will be gone by the time the other one starts to spool. Especially on the street.
Im very happy with how my setup turned out..not many graphs iv seen make the torque I do where I make it with only 12psi...and will only improve substantially with a few more PSI of boost

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"i'm shooting for 450-500hp"

"like to see 1 bar at around 3500 rpm not later then 4k rpm"

the S300 SXE 62 P/N 13009097056 looks like it should be one of your best choices. the compressor is the same as the EFR 8374 and it has a wicked 76 turbine wheel.

while the compressor is only 2.5% larger in area to the GT3582r it can make 77 pounds per minute which is good for 580 rotary rwhp SAE. so, yes, it will make 500.

as to spool rate, i believe at this time no one knows other than BW.

while the EFR turbine wheel is 40% lighter the head engineer at Precision Turbos told me they tried the material and found they were unable to cast it in a max flow shape so they picked flow over weight.

i am very interested in dynoing my SXE 62 to get some answers. meanwhile i am pretty sure you will be happy with the SXE.

as to primary injectors sizing:

with stock ports let's just use 550 as a max target.

550 takes 73 pounds of air. at 10.0 AFR that'd be 7.3 pounds of gasoline or 1.16 gallon per minute/4400 CC/Minute.

4400 X 1.35 (accounts for 85% duty max and lag) = 5940 Gross Injector requirements.

go w the 1000 primary injectors and a Walbro 9000262 pump (install kit required) hard wired.

since you are running gasoline your stock fuel lines should be fine at your power level and dash 6 works well at the rails. the Aeromotive 13109 generally has been found to work well.

nice looking FD, good luck.

Rotate86

96fds your spool is a Lil slower because you are on spring pressure of Wastegate . also why you see it taper down from 12psi through the rpms. remember it will be creeping open well before that 12psi, bleeding boost off. with a electronic boost controller or using ecu keeping gate closed until target should see a gain in spool rpm. how much I'm not sure but yea have a look at greenbrothers Facebook page and you will see 18-20psi by just over 4000rpm

96fd3s

Sweet, yea I do have plans to install a boost controller in the future and go for a bit more boost.
That's my first run after converting it to single, didnt want to push it too much untill iv tested it a little bit and get rid of any problems that may arise shortly after the conversion.

Really I had assumed id end up with more HP without the boost controller (16psi wastegate springs installed, pressure source taken off the compressor housing), but i guess the system has more pressure drop then I had anticipated. All good though, car still feels like a rocket ship to me and I know it can make heaps more power with more boost.

eplusz

-Very good info Howard thanks alot!!.. ? I'll order the hardwire kit for the fuel pump as i don't think i'll be needing the boost-a-pump yet. Going to stick the ID1000 in primary and keep my ID2000 secondaries, would you suggest me to run my fuel in parallel or series?

-The .91 hotside would be a good choice for my application (stock ports) right or would the 1.00 be a better option?? I have a equal length manifold with dual wastegates. I'll post some pictures up tonight

i'm also debating wether to keep my 3" downpipe or fab up a 3,5" while i'm at it.. don't know if it would make a big difference

Thanks for the replies! helps alot

eplusz

I'm ordering the innovate SCG-1 soon it is a AFR meter and boostcontroller built into 1 unit and with failsafe. I have a 52mm re-a dash column, think it's ideal as i can see AFR and boost/ wastegate duty on 1 gauge instead of heaving lots of different gauges..? You can also control boost on the guage itself

Maybe something for you??

lOOkatme

iTrader: (19)

I would keep the .91 A/R and go with 3.5" downpipe. it seems the larger downpipe helps with the spool up of the turbo a bunch, and the smaller .91 A/R doesn't hurt much at all with an efficient hotside.

I would choose the turbo Howard recommended and the hotside is large and GTG.


I run a P-trim wheel with .84 T4 divided housing on mine and it doesn't choke out up top. I probably had my car up close to 475-500WHP on a cool night at 17PSI on my GT3574R.

eplusz

This sounds very good! i was afraid choosing a larger hotside would hurt my spool thats why i think the .91 would be fine but not bigger.

As for the downpipe i asked my welder for a 3,5" DP. After my DP the rest of my exhaust is 3" would this hurt? i have a resonator after my DP i'm debating weather to replace it with a pipe that tapers down from 3,5" to 3" so i can keep my current exhaust. Reason why i want to keep it is because i'm running dual exhaust tips, which i kind of like.. (some originality and last thing i still have on the car from the previous owner)

Thanks for your input!

Rotate86

Yeap do a 3.5" down pipe then nice taper into existing system will be fine.

IRPerformance

iTrader: (41)

Honestly, stock ports are going to kill your spool and you will need a lot more boost to make those power numbers than a properly ported motor. I built a 35r car a while ago that went from about 430 to 470 wheel hp at 18 psi going from a stock motor to my aggressive street port. No other changes were made except the motor build/porting and a retune. There is ZERO downside to a proper port. Some say you lose low end. In my experiences you make it up in spool time. Less boost to make the same power = less stress on the motor.


Is there any reason you are intent on keeping stock ports? What is the overall condition of the motor as it sits? What seals were used?


ID 750/2000 would be enough. 1000/2000 if you want more headroom for future mods. Keep the rails in series. Only benefit to parallel is if you run dual feeds from the tank but the stock lines will flow 500hp+.


You will also need meth injection to reliably hit those power goals on pump gas. I recommend the AEM V2 system. Very reliable. Pm me for a price.


Ditch the RW throttle body. Do your research and you will see why.


Whos manifold are you running?

eplusz

What you say sounds logical, although I do think the turbo also has a lot to do with it and I believe the SXE is a better and more efficient turbo then the 35r which could result in better numbers. Do you have dyno prints of before and after?

There is no real reason NOT to port the motor to be honest.. I just don't want to do it because people are convinced they HAVE to port the motor for it to make power. I simply want to get the most out of the engine with its stock ports and when I decide to go crazy I'll have room for improvement..

As for my setup questions : I'll keep the 1000/2000 injectors and I'm using A RPM Fab header.
I just closed a deal on a Aquamist hfs3 system yesterday! And thinking about selling the RW throttle body and buying the CX Racing LIM.

Remember this is a grocery car used for everyday things. Weekends I'll be occasionally drag racing it just for fun and am planning to track it next year. Think I'll be driving around on 8 psi or so and want max 20 to hit target HP.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"There is ZERO downside to a proper port." absolute truth here, OTOH, if you want to keep your stock ports no animals will be harmed.

"need meth injection to reliably hit those power goals on pump gas" more truth however you can run water or meth or a combo to quell combustion chamber heat. 400/600 CC of water will do the trick.

"Ditch the RW throttle body." yes. OE runner area is 5.7 sq inches. OE throttle plates are 8.5.

while your stock ports will act as a restrictor plate you may find that your 38 mm wastegates are insufficient. 44s have 34% more area and will better prevent boost creep. no way would twin 38s work w the SXE on a ported motor... keep an eye out for creep w your 38 setup.

the CX Racing LIM would be a mismatch w stock ports. spend the $ on a set of IGN 1-A ignition coils and a really good set of plug wires/Magnecor for instance.

IRPerformance

iTrader: (41)

Howard I agree, meth or water alone would be sufficient. I prefer a mix as I've found some corrosion inside the intake track of motors just running water as it doesn't always all evaporate. The meth helps dry things up.


Any pics of the manifold? The design will be a big factor of if the wastegates will work. On my manifold design, I have zero creep with Tial 38s because of how they are positioned. My bost control duty cycle maps are usually a solid line.


Also agree you don't need the CX racing lower for those goals. I would however run a ground zero as it is proven to help balance airflow between the front and rear rotors. The stock lower is very uneven for packaging and emissions reasons. The rear rotor runs leaner and therefore hotter. That is why it is usually the first to go on a stock car.


I think he has the coils already? Definitely run them as direct fire.

eplusz

First off thanks for the input guys.. i'm breaking my head what to do over here and here in The Netherlands there are exactly 3 rotary "specialist" that know dip sh*t... so your again i really appreciate the help and input you guys give! Now to answer the questions..

-I'm seriously starting to doubt to keep the stock ports.. the thing is i want the car to be finished by the end Q1 next year (not rushing) but don't want it to take forever. With that beeing said if i want to port the engine that means sending it to England (closest by Netherlands) to port and then getting it back..

-I'm planning to run 50/50 water/meth want to use max 8psi on the street and max 20psi on high boost setting, when i want to race or so.. but letting the WI system kick in at say around 10psi so i won't be using it on the street (this is a thought)

-RW TB is sold.. The reason i want to buy the CX-Racing manifold is for the even balance/flow between the rotors.. never knew this unit was a mismatch on stock ports.. My question is: "Why is the CX Racing a mismatch and will a Xcessive unit be any better?"

-I've seen lots of people use 38mm wastegates on setups alot more extreme then mine.. seeing that i thought 38mm per runner would be enough for my stock port engine and even if i decide to streetport it later. And in my simple mine i thought: I have a single shared wastegate now 50mm, cut that in half thats 25mm roughly per port ( i know i know this is bad calculation on so many levels) but it is enough to keep boost in check on my 380hp setup now. So 38mm wastegate per runner must be big enough for my newer setup.. again i know this is very simple thinking and there is alot of calculations flow etc going on to figure out proper wastegate size and that manifold design also plays a big role.. but bare with my i'm a simple person asking for help, really don't know any other way to figure this out.

eXhaust made by my buddy over at RPM FAB he does great work!!! you guys want anything done that's the place to go!, here are the pictures:






Please let me know what you guys think about the design.. i'm a bit scared that the wastegate placement on the rear rotor is too direct in the flow of the exhaust and maybe putting pressure on the gate making it to crack open (creep). Correct me if i'm wrong on this.

-As for the coils, i already have the AEM IGN1 smart coils and MSD superconductor wires.

Thanks guys!

Rotate86

your mate has done a great job giving Wastegates priority. you should see no issues controlling boost with that manifold and twin 38s IMO.
I would class the cx racing mani in the same as the xcessive lower. both are equal flow and designed with provisions for extra Injectors. i enquired on here for Info about the semi pp one. there is a guy running 40+psi through the non pp one with a methanol drag car.is it essential for what your doing? no. but it is beautiful and Shiney and is better then oem. so if you have the money ethier options will work.

eplusz

Apart from it beeing pretty (like the RW Throttle body) i do think this serves and extra function in balancing out the flow to the rotors. That's why i would buy it.. just to know in the back of my head that that is fixed, wouldn't dare run 20Psi knowing that my rotors doesn't get even fueling/cooling.

I'll took the RW off my list and will add the CX-Racing

Glease Man

iTrader: (5)

The manifold looks good, the wastegate entries are positioned perfectly for that manifold design. Should put you bounds ahead for creep retention.

IRPerformance

iTrader: (41)

Not the best runner design but I don't see that manifold having issues controlling boost.

eplusz

What could be done better? Please tell

eplusz

Can't seem to find any "review" or bad info about the RW Throttle body btw (i did sell it however). Found a nice thread how to improve flow on the fd stock TB.

Think i'll do that when i have a moment next week or so! forgot to mention that my UIM is ported, the middle has been grinded out. (will post pics)

eplusz

Thanks! :

eplusz

So.. another quick ask for advise.. A buddy nearby is selling his entire setup and is willing to give me a great deal on a 8374 EWG EFR but the downside is that it has a 1.05 hotside.

I haven't seen any stockport engine with an EFR with that big hotside.. i want to know if i decide to go with this what my options are, i guess going with a streetport is one option but can you buy .91 housings for these turbo's by itself?

Thanks

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

1.05 is not big on an 8374. There are two videos in the link of 8374 EWG 1.05 cars;

BorgWarner EFR Rx-7 Turbo System

eplusz

thanks elliot..
but i am still on stockports.. wouldn't this cause the turbo to spool later? upwards of 4k rpm
/edit: i know aaron is using E85 and i'm going to use pump gas