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I have a KKK K27-7200 upgrade version turbo with manifold/wg/lines etc that ill be fitting when my engine is finished (Light exhaust porting etc). The car is going to be a weekend track car fully road legal for driving to/from the circuit etc.
I can find very little information on this turbo as its used mainly as an upgrade for porsches so wondered if there was any rotary experience with this.
If anyone can take from the dimensions and give me an idea of a similar spec garret etc or other brand turbo i could research a bit from there.
This link is my turbo
http://www.patrickmotorsports.com/part/turbo-k27-7200-borg-warner-kkk-930-964-965-turbo-s-turbocharger-supercharger/
I couldnt find much on it but it appears to be good for 350hp in a porsche and have a 54mm compressor inducer so i dare say it is too small and wont flow as much as the rew twins or a high flow s4/s5.
350hp flow in a piston engine is a lot less in a rotary, they really like to waste a lot of air and fuel.
That would be about a 250rwhp turbo on a rotary and not a very good one.
A stock or stock hybrid S5 TII turbo/manifold would probably be better fit for a rotary than anything you can cobble up with the K27 7200.
K27-7200 is expensive too.
So, if you are looking for a good turbo for the rotary and don't mind spending a bit look into the EFR 7670 for 300-425rwhp or EFR 8374 for ~350-500rwhp.
I passengered in the Fd with this fitted before i got it and it was much more powerful than a standard twin for sure. The guy fitted the K27 as a replacement for his GT30R while he was saving to get it rebuilt. Since he fitted the K27 he said it spooled quicker and pulled harder to redline as the gt30 ran out of poof so he left it on and sold the 30 for spares.
Size wise this seems pretty closely matched to the largest of the S200 varients and the T04e etc so was expecting similar. Also the s5 ht18 only has a 43mm compressor inducer so is quite a bit smaller?
I understand i asked the question and you guys gave the answers so fair enough but just expected something different lol.
This thread says it's not a bad match for the rotary at all. Spools like a RX6 or T04e with a bit more in it perhaps. Unless the link below is referencing a different K27 than what you have.
Would it be possible to post some pics? Take measurements of the comp inducer, turbine exducer? Or if really feeling generous take both covers off and get all four measurements? There are some gurus on here that might be able to ascertain its potential from that. It seems to be a fairly enigmatic turbo that comes in various forms.
Its not the oem early 90's 911 turbo is it??
the K27 (P/N 5327 988 7200) is a very common old school KKK/Borg turbo.
it has a 5.36 aver sq inch compressor and a 5.94 sized turbine wheel.
my notes indicate the turbo also came w a 5.06 turbine wheel. big diff so check...
max rotary rwhp SAE is 400 at 29 psi and 377 at 14.7.
comparatively, a GT35 specs at 6.38 cold and 5.17 hot.
FD stock turbos total 5.97 and 5.25 but are held back by the manifolding and heavier hotside mass.
the K27 can make 53 pounds of air which translates into 530 piston hp. during the four years i ran the Ferrari Club of America's track weekends at wide open Brainerd the only car that was able to run w me was a very nicely modded Porsche 944 w a K27. after resetting my camber i was able to make distance on him but the point is the turbo can get it done on a road course.
Howard
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 02-08-17 at 08:12 AM.
Ah, I see the link the original poster provided shows the
KKK 5327-970-7200
and the KKK 5327 988 7200
I passengered in the Fd with this fitted before i got it and it was much more powerful than a standard twin for sure. The guy fitted the K27 as a replacement for his GT30R while he was saving to get it rebuilt. Since he fitted the K27 he said it spooled quicker and pulled harder to redline as the gt30 ran out of poof so he left it on and sold the 30 for spares.
Also, GT30R.
Another turbo too small on the hotside for a roadcourse rotary.
The car is going to be a weekend track car fully road legal for driving to/from the circuit etc.
For a track turbo I would recommend EFR 8374 on low boost (10-14psi) for 350-400rwhp. The response is there!
If you really have to have hair trigger response do the EFR 7670 as I did for "racing" in parking lots.
Hopefully OP can tell us which KKK it is. If it's the Blitz KKK then it should be just fine for how he runs it. The OP has been running stock twins at 1.2 bar (17.5 PSI) on track for the last 4 years or so with water injection (multiple track days). Because of the water the twins have lasted that long at those boost levels and his EGTs are fine. If he runs a KKK or similarly smaller 400whp - type of turbo with a small hotside he will probably be alright because of the water.
They are saying its OEM for 91-94 911 Turbo - they were a 380-400hp car i believe?
I don't know how much boost they were running, but you'd be asking maybe 30% more of it to flow that much in a rotary. What A/R is the turbine housing?
They are saying its OEM for 91-94 911 Turbo - they were a 380-400hp car i believe?
I don't know how much boost they were running, but you'd be asking maybe 30% more of it to flow that much in a rotary. What A/R is the turbine housing?
it was an upgrade for the 965 911s and still used in 911s up to 2008 according to rennlist. The number is k27-3072GD 11.11 which seemingly equates to a 1.1 a/r.
Just had a check and the 1991-1994 3.6 turbo made 330 bhp at 10psi and then in latter form the boost was upped to 13psi and made 380-400bhp. I'm wanting to run around 20psi so hopefully 400 could work.
Did another quick search and from what I can gather the 970-7200 and 988-7200 are kind of the same turbo with the 988 being a later casting, kind of like the early twins for our cars had N3A1-13-700 and N3A1-13-700A revisions before the 99 specs came out.
Here is a compressor map of the K27 7200:
50-55lb/min of flow as Howard said and roughly on par with something like a GT30 or T04e?
with the caveat that the middle numbers don't match though i am pretty confident that this is your compressor map... here it is in pounds per minute courtesy of AGP Turbo.
if you are wanting to run 20 psi 2.36 pressure ratios you are looking at 51/52 pounds but are very close to stall and with stall comes greatly increased IATs.
51 pounds equates to 384 rotary rwhp. this assumes the hotside is up to the task.
i have updated my turbo comparison thread in this section to include the K27. you will note the compressor is very close to a number of Garrett and other BW turbos. the hotside is the issue of course.
the dyno sheets in post 4 are interesting.
clearly something is holding the Porsche K27 back as the 324 is well short of the compressor's potential output of 50+ pounds of air and 500 piston hp. this could be the hotside, the exhaust, the manifold, tuning etc etc....
the other sheet is especially interesting. an EFR 7670 maxxed out on a rotary. 419 rotary is 56 pounds per minute. pretty close to the right side of the map w an amazing distribution of power... lots on the low rpm side.
given that the EFR7670 and the K27 are fairly close sizewise it is noteworthy how far engineering has come in the decades since the K27 appeared.
i would be remiss if i didn't make note of the fact that a road racing turbo'd rotary really needs a lot of hotside size/efficiency. i am amazed the OP has been able to super flog the OE turbos at 17 psi on a road course.... of course the answer is water. while being a huge fan of AI even i am impressed w the impact AI has had... OE turbos at 17 psi!
Same, can't believe he has been flogging them for over 4 years on a circuit at that boost level with them only now starting to leak very slightly. Same goes for the longevity of his OE stock port motor with those twins. I believe he has been running them sequentially as well all this time. I don't think he injects that much water either as I believe he uses the front windshield washer reservoir and only had to fill it up once or twice each track day.
Hopefully he can chime in and explain it a bit more but his experience tracking the twins with water is a large reason why I have an AEM Water injection kit to install and run with my twins at about 1 bar (14 PSI) with a Greddy SMIC. Our climate is much milder and I have been tracking at 12-13 PSI on the stock intercooler in sub 60 F weather with no issues but the water injection should help out in summer just in case.
Yes, the k27-3072GD 11.11 is the old turbo like people use on C2T and they max it at 360rwhp like the dyno I posted.
Which should be ~250rwhp on a rotary.
But if we just go off that compressor map it should do ~325-350rwhp on a rotary maxed at high boost and it should be able to do that since it has a generous exhaust wheel ratio.
But you don't usually run high boost on a small turbo on the circuit as the thermal loading is too much.
Should be a good 250-300rwhp rotary turbo at moderate boost- so it has nothing over a S5 based stock hybrid.
For instance my S5 TII based BNR Stage 4 did 350rwhp at 10psi and 380rwp at 14psi.
You can't compare that turbo to the EFR 7670 output even though the exhaust wheel major diameter is the same size. The compressor has a smaller 55mm inducer and 70mm exducer. That is smaller than the next size down EFR 7163 compressor.
Only good thing about the turbo for a rotary is it has a generous exhaust size for the compressor size (and apparently you can get it cheap?)
neil_jdmr
Yes just to confirm it's a 5327-970-7200.
I'm not looking at breaking records just a quick spooling 380-400whp.
neil_jdmr
Just had a check and the 1991-1994 3.6 turbo made 330 bhp at 10psi and then in latter form the boost was upped to 13psi and made 380-400bhp. I'm wanting to run around 20psi so hopefully 400 could work.
So do you want 400bhp or 400rwhp? 400bhp is ~340rwhp.
The turbo you are looking at can do that on a rotary, but it won't be the best or cheapest way to do 340rwhp on a rotary because like you say, it will take 20psi to do it instead of 10psi.
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Wiki-
Brake horsepower (bhp)
Brake horsepower (bhp) is the power measured at the crankshaft just outside the engine, before the losses of power caused by the gearbox and drive train.
Wheel horsepower (whp)
Motor vehicle dynamometers can measure wheel horsepower, which is the effective, true horsepower delivered to the driving wheel(s), representing the actual power available to accelerate the vehicle after all losses in the drive train, and all parasitic losses such as pumps, fans, alternator, muffled exhaust, etc.
There is a complete Blitz FD KKK turbo kit on Ebay (item located in Russia) right now for $1,300 + $200-250 shipping (turbo, manifold, wastegate, downpipe and lines - bonus heat shield and intake filter).
It shows the turbo is a K27 3470MOJ1.1 which is 60mm/87mm compressor with 76mm/68mm exhaust wheel in a T3 1.10AR exhaust housing.
Wouldn't spool as hard as the little KKK, but would be a good lazy 400rwhp low boost circuit turbo.
I mainly added this info for people in this thread wondering what turbo was used in the FD Blitz turbo kit.
For 10 years I've pushed these twins on standard ports. For the first 5-6 years I used the car street driven at 13psi but always struggled with heat on a smic. I bought a blitz fmic , ally radiator , fuel pump and fpr and the aem wi. Boost is controlled by the pfc using the OEM boost solenoid and set at 1.2 bar or 17.5psi . The water/meth is set to come in from 5psi to full flow by 16psi. I have tracked this car in full trim driving to and from the circuit for over 4 years now. The seq twins are still boosting really well and tbh I'm only not racing the car this season due to the clutch starting to make some noise plus after a hot session on track my compression does get low so takes a bit extra to start it. I was getting a little bit of blowby but fitted a open vented catch can which solved that issue.
hopefully get myself back on the circuit later in the year.
02-07-17, 02:42 AM
