atkins apex seals
01-26-12, 01:44 AM
#28
Atkins apex seals have been around for a while.
Will work just fine.
Concensus is:
Atkins = softer , so not as forgiving to knock, mistunes. But if they do break, wont damage as much
Rotary Aviation= Stronger, harder, more forgiving to booboo tuning, but also harder on the housings
--
now there is also
Goopy and ALS. both great options ( have not tried these ) but are getting great reviews and prices are very fair
Will work just fine.
Concensus is:
Atkins = softer , so not as forgiving to knock, mistunes. But if they do break, wont damage as much
Rotary Aviation= Stronger, harder, more forgiving to booboo tuning, but also harder on the housings
--
now there is also
Goopy and ALS. both great options ( have not tried these ) but are getting great reviews and prices are very fair
Since atkins are softer as you say will this yield less wear and tear on the housings compared to RA's harder seals?
10-26-12, 09:43 PM
#29
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I used Atkins cryos and they lasted me 2,000 km. I do t blame the seals though as I could not prove it wasn't the tune. I bought some RA super seals to help against breakage like my cryos did.
11-12-16, 11:10 PM
#30
Junior Member
lol
there have been more blown up threads on apex seals than any other topic on this board.
i agree w rxspeed7
"It's all in the tuning."... +system setup
our motors are 1.3 LITERS displacement.
80 cubic inches!
a 400 rwhp rotary, 460 flywheel hp, is making...
5.75 horsepower per cubic inch! and we consider 400 hp middling on the output scale.
not only is this a crazy number compared to most piston engines but we do not have an every other cycle cooling event as does the 4 cycle.
imagine the combustion chamber pressure and heat compared to a piston motor and add in a slightly less robust internal architecture.
of course the apex seal is the star of the show.
in my view there are two choices re apex seals....
metal or ceramic.
ceramic don't warp. steel warps... all steel warps at high temperature.
that doesn't disqualify steel seals. you just have to manage combustion chamber heat.
if you do that most steel seals will work fine.
i ran a set of Atkins apex seals in my 507 SAE rwhp motor for four years. i took the motor apart at the end of that period soley to measure everything. at the time i did that the motor was showing the highest compression for the 4 year period.
the seals were dead straight and showed no shoulder wear.
and this was because...
"It's all in the tuning." +system setup
run too much combustion chamber heat and ANY steel apex seal will warp.
for those going steel i recommend Atkins Apex seals primarily because they have worked well for me. i do not mark up the internal components on my engines so i have no reason to go w X or Y based on profit.
i am also quite sure that many other steel seals will work well given proper "tuning".
much of the apex seal heavy breathing is about making a buck (nothing wrong with that, i am a proud capitalist).
benefit could be gained by spending more time on creating the proper apex seal internal enviornment.
focus on getting the items listed below correct and you will find whatever apex seal choice you make to be a good decision.
focal areas:
tuning (ignition and fuel)
AI
remove all crankcase oil from injection ports
significantly research Pre-Mix 2 cycle oil (just finished doing this and expect gains)
bullet proof systems
reduce exhaust backpressure
proper heat range plugs and solid ignition
dual oil coolers
ZDDP
synthetic crankcase oil
effective intercooler
intake air from outside the 165 degree engine compartment
shield turbine heat from LIM (MICA)
instrumentation digital and logged or it doesn't count, knock and fuel pressure near the top of the list
work w the above and your much-higher-state-of-tune-than-you-thought turbo'd rotary will have a happy apex seal relationship whether w brand X or Y.
howard
i agree w rxspeed7
"It's all in the tuning."... +system setup
our motors are 1.3 LITERS displacement.
80 cubic inches!
a 400 rwhp rotary, 460 flywheel hp, is making...
5.75 horsepower per cubic inch! and we consider 400 hp middling on the output scale.
not only is this a crazy number compared to most piston engines but we do not have an every other cycle cooling event as does the 4 cycle.
imagine the combustion chamber pressure and heat compared to a piston motor and add in a slightly less robust internal architecture.
of course the apex seal is the star of the show.
in my view there are two choices re apex seals....
metal or ceramic.
ceramic don't warp. steel warps... all steel warps at high temperature.
that doesn't disqualify steel seals. you just have to manage combustion chamber heat.
if you do that most steel seals will work fine.
i ran a set of Atkins apex seals in my 507 SAE rwhp motor for four years. i took the motor apart at the end of that period soley to measure everything. at the time i did that the motor was showing the highest compression for the 4 year period.
the seals were dead straight and showed no shoulder wear.
and this was because...
"It's all in the tuning." +system setup
run too much combustion chamber heat and ANY steel apex seal will warp.
for those going steel i recommend Atkins Apex seals primarily because they have worked well for me. i do not mark up the internal components on my engines so i have no reason to go w X or Y based on profit.
i am also quite sure that many other steel seals will work well given proper "tuning".
much of the apex seal heavy breathing is about making a buck (nothing wrong with that, i am a proud capitalist).
benefit could be gained by spending more time on creating the proper apex seal internal enviornment.
focus on getting the items listed below correct and you will find whatever apex seal choice you make to be a good decision.
focal areas:
tuning (ignition and fuel)
AI
remove all crankcase oil from injection ports
significantly research Pre-Mix 2 cycle oil (just finished doing this and expect gains)
bullet proof systems
reduce exhaust backpressure
proper heat range plugs and solid ignition
dual oil coolers
ZDDP
synthetic crankcase oil
effective intercooler
intake air from outside the 165 degree engine compartment
shield turbine heat from LIM (MICA)
instrumentation digital and logged or it doesn't count, knock and fuel pressure near the top of the list
work w the above and your much-higher-state-of-tune-than-you-thought turbo'd rotary will have a happy apex seal relationship whether w brand X or Y.
howard
y did i imagine the most excited over the top voice wen i read the larger early part of this?
i died laughin readin this in the middle of a movie... pissed off alot of ppl
12-06-16, 03:28 PM
#31
Full Member
Given the excellent antiknock properties of ethanol , is there even a need to run aftermarket seals anymore ? Seems like E85 and OEM seals could give us the best of both worlds .
12-29-16, 05:52 AM
#32
To be honest, I have no idea why anyone would want to run anything other than OEM on a street car unless you had such a unique and custom setup that tuning your car became so bespoke that you might want to run a softer seal during the tuning process in case you knock badly whilst refining the tune and don't want to destroy the housings. Otherwise, for the rest of us running twins or a single with a Power FC the OEM seals are perfect.
Drag cars and other really high horsepower applications I can understand a desire for a seal with different properties and these cars don't really care about longevity so there is more options you can consider in design of the seals than than the OEM ones.
Drag cars and other really high horsepower applications I can understand a desire for a seal with different properties and these cars don't really care about longevity so there is more options you can consider in design of the seals than than the OEM ones.
