E6KT2

Thank You Chuck!!! That's exactly what I wanted to hear. I read/listen a lot, but I needed my suspicions confirmed. Me thinks I may now procure some 9.4:1's!!!!

importboi22

does that make me crazy for wanting to use 9.7:1 rotors?

RageRace

if i didnt basically get the 9.4s for next to natta i would have done the 9.7s. What do those 9.7s go for anyway, price wise?

Rotary?Cool

I would go lower compression to prevent knocking with more boost. Higher compression if your gonna run race gas all the time.

I really don't know **** though, thats my guess.

RageRace

"I really don't know **** though, thats my guess."
LOL , OK what are you talking about??? The reason to use high compression rotors is that you can get more power from the same boost levels, pump/race gas, either one. Look at Vosko's #s 459hp at 15psi, that is attainable by high comp. rotors.

importboi22

i got some gsl-se rotors... 9.4:1

RageRace

yea thats what i just got, decided to put them in the FD as well as a t51kai, meth inj, and maybe a 50 shot. I was wondering how much do those GTUs 9.7:1 run in price?

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

Be careful with the GSL-SE rotors. They are shaped ever so slightly different than the post '86 rotors. Many people have used them but the difference is enough the Mazdatrix, Racing Beat and others don't recommend interchanging them. They are also heavier than your old rotors. I hope you have the proper counterweights to match as well as an aftermarket flywheel. Your engine will shake violentely if you mess this area up. The 9.7:1's would be the best choice due to the same shape and weight. They are just a little hard to come by though.

red xeven

i always thought lower compression is better for a turbo setup?? all this high comp talk has got me crosseyed @¿@

RageRace

All you have to do is replace the side seals and counter weights(i believe, dont quote me on that). Also with the 9.7 rotors your looking at race gas almost all the time. Basically i was told by several different tuners to go with the 9.4s if i want the max power on pump gas.Im always still learning though so if i have been misinformed please tell me.
-JT

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

The GSL-SE rotors are 9.4:1.They use larger side seals and 3 mm apex seals. They are also the heaviest of the 13B rotors. As I said earlier their shape is ever so slightly different from the current rotors.

The '86-'88 2nd gen n/a rotors are also 9.4:1. These use the same size side and apex seals (2mm) as all the later rotaries up until the Renesis. They are heavier than the 3rd gen rotors by 1/2 lb but are 1 lb lighter than the GSL-SE rotors. Any time you change year model rotors you should also change counterweights unless you already know what you have. Remember that the rear counterweight is built into the flywheel from the factory.

You don't neccesarily need race gas on any setup. The key is in how well it is tuned and how much boost you plan to run. Low boost would not require a high octane. High boost would. You get the picture.

RageRace

i have the new side seals and 3mm hurleys for them and kne i had to change the counter weight but didnt know that they weighed that much more! Thanks. Any idea who sells the 9.7s and what year and model that they come on.

RageRace

o yea one more Q. Is there a point in the amount of boost where a higher compression rotor(9.7s) would not be benificial or even be not as efficiant as a lower comp one(8.5/9.4)? Thanks for the help.

wakeech

no, never. a higher compression ratio is always more thermally efficient. the only problem with high compression ratios is that it "concentrates" the heat of the charge more, meaning that to run an equivalent amount of boost at a higher compression ratio with exactly the same detonation resistance in the charge, you'll have to have a cooler charge coming in... lots cooler.

as you reduce your compression ratio, you can run far more lbs of air into the chamber, which often means more heat with a compression system of the same efficiency, but your thermal efficiency drops, as does your off-boost performance.

RageRace

great thank you! Also(kind of hard to explain but ill try) If i go from the 8.5s to the 9.4s, this is just an example, lets say i pick up 20hp at 15 psi. Now say i go to the 9.7s will there be a noticable difference? how much, roughly? Thanks
JT

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

Actually I need to correct that statement. Wakeech is a damn smart guy though! (No I'm not being sarcastic!) There is a point where lower compression would be more beneficial. One thing about having lower compression rotors is that you can run more timing. This of course assumes that you are at a power level high enough where the high compression rotors are more prone to detonation. To avoid detonation you would need to start to retard the timing moe and more as the power level rises (high compression). The lower compression may not need any timing retard at this level however. It is hard to say exactly where this power level is however. the higher the octane gas used the higher the limit. You will eventually get to a point where there is so much more advance on the low compression per boost level than on the high compression that the low compression engine is making more power. It would also be doing it with much more margin for error. If I were to guess I would say that this would start taking effect around the 450+ hp mark. Again it all depends on the type of fuel being used and just how good the state of tuning really is. The higher compression engines will spool the turbo faster which is good and be more drivable when not under boost. Gas mileage would be a little better when your foots not planted either.

20B Junkie

Can someone sum up the pros and cons of each type in one post?

BTW, this is an excellent thread, very informative.

RageRace

thats what i was wondering. Basically im going to be running in the ballpark of 500hp every day with a BP, t51 and meth inj at around 17-18 psi, with the 9.4s. At the track I was looking at maybe uping the boost to around25-30psi with c16. At the tracks 2 bar setting, are you saying that i would be making more power with the low compr. rotors and c16? but with 93 oct pump gas i would be making a significant gain using the high compressions?
Thanks
JT

Rotary?Cool

HA, I guess I do know ****! Its only obvious, the most important thing is to prevent knocking. Lower compression, less tendency to knock. Notice how I said "if your gonna use race gas". I know I don't want to be race gas dependant because my car is for the street. Whats race gas $4 a gallon. If i do want max power, say for a track day, then I'll buy some race fuel, change my settings and bam, more power.


This thread asked for opinions, don't trash, especially without an explanation.

RageRace

Wasnt trying to knock ya bro, my bad. You are right that there is less knock at higher boost levels with the low comp. I am just wondering that if you can run lower and make the same power why wouldnt you want to. For example if you can make significant power at lets say 15psi(Vosko-459/ErnieT10.7@20psi, many others) why would you want to have to run another 3,4 psi to have the same power? My car is going to be daily driven/shown/and raced(mybe once a month). Everything seems like it makes sense in my head, maybe im missing something.

The overlap is what im kinda wondering about, from what ive been told from the different people that are blueprinting the car i should be seeing AROUND 500hp at 17,18psi while on 93oct(while using the meth. inj), and this can be used pretty much everyday. So if you can make a great deal of power on pump gas with the high comp/inj when you want to go to the track and be tuned for C16 you can still run less boost and be making as much power as the low compr. at higher boost. I could be wrong but the way i see it is lets say we want to make 600hp. With the high comp. you may need to run 25 psi while on low comp. your looking at 30( these arent exact but a guestimate) i could be way off and if i am please let me know. Lets get RICE RACING/VOSKO/ERNIET/RX_Rotary etc in here for their input. Damn, WTF ever happened to AnthonyRodriguez, i would like to hear what he has to say.
-JT

chuck8313BTSDS

What is our goal here, a fast daily driver or a weekend Vet/Mustage killer with going to the track once a month?. If you want a daily driver buy a tow vehicle for your weekend play vehicle. For 9 moths I was running 9.4 rotor and dynoed at 400rwhp at 6500rpm's. THis car was driven on the weekends and to the track. I used 93 pump gas for everday driving. I only bought 6 gallons and added 104 octane booster. The boost was 19-20 psi, water temp was under 160F and my air temp was under 100f. Turbo was T3 60-1. ( I think the T3 .82 a/r stage three wheel is a little to small though ) Throttle responce was instant. For street racing, all I can say it was quick. 122mph in the 1/4 mile. Now because of the pear pressure I am running 8.5 rotor with a T66. .96 a/r p-trim. Yes I am producing more power at 22-25 psi ( higher rpm range ) but the throttle responce is not a crisp as the 9.4 and smaller turbo. That lack of throttle responce will cause you to loose a street race more often then not. Who here has accully driven a 2700lb, 500 HP rotary car? I know rotarygod and I have and for the steet it is fast enough in my opinion. I always thought/believe that a 500 hp rotary motor equaled a 600 HP piston motor. ( not torque ) Please correct me on this If I am wrong, it's just my gut feeling. I know of a 360rwhp 3rd gen that runs 11.7 at 115mph. This car is fast. He has spent allot of money on the drive line, trans, diff, drive shaft and axles. this cost alone was allot he said. I could not imagine his car with 450rwhp. More upgraded drive line parts, more money.
Sorry for the long reply.
chuck

setzep

I don't make 500hp I'm guessing, but I can tell you that what I do have is plenty for the street. If you are not 100% focused on keeping the car in a straight line you will end up in the ditch. 500hp in a 2700# car is almost a death trap on the street in my opinion. But on the other hand putting a small turbine side on the rotary probably isn't the best idea either. It's hard not to make 350-400hp with just a decent turbo.
My vote, I like the off boost power I have for my car (9.0 rotors). I can climb small hills in 5th gear at 2700rpm so thats good enough for me. But my 13b turbo is in FB so it doesn't require as much low end power to get it moving as a FC or FD.

RageRace

My goal.....well....i guess it would be to have a daily driven, show quality car that, because of the power capable, makes me nervous when i get in and gives me that stupid grin after I get out and look back at the ride that made me want to **** my pants. Thats MY goal , probably not everyone elses.I have driven alot of high power cars as well as raced shifter carts so know about extreme power to weight ratios. I dont understand fully though how you compare running a relatively smaller turbo at 6psi less than a bigger turbo and comparing that there is more power made or less lag.. If you only switched the rotors out, that would be a much better comparison, if it was the only variable. I dont know about 500 being too much for the street. I mean you do have a boost controller that hopefully has high and low settings, as well as a ECU that can be mapped for other applications as well. I guess some people are just more comfortable with power than others.
Thanks
JT

setzep

It's probably a different story when it's 500hp in a FB than a FD. I'm guessing the FD can handle the power a little better. Maybe 600hp would be a better "limit" for a street FD?

RageRace

What happened to the topic of high comp rotors? LOL
Anyway is Rice,evil,AJ13b, any of the big guys able to give me a little more info. on the "overlap" of where high comp. rotors start to not be benificial.
Thanks all
JT