View Poll Results: Should I Brideport my new engine?
Keep the streetport that you already enlarged this rebuild.
21
17.36%
Bridgeport that thing, because big ports are cool.
74
61.16%
Bridgeport it so I can watch you ruin your engine.
14
11.57%
What is a Bridgeport? Stickers + Exhaust make cars faster.
12
9.92%
Voters: 121. You may not vote on this poll
Should I do a partial BP on my new engine?
08-25-01, 08:24 AM
#26
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Wow I'm impressed! No too often that you see a whole damn engine build from the time you ported to it running all in one thread!
Keep the news comming, I know I'm not the only one that checks this thread everytime I log on.
Keep the news comming, I know I'm not the only one that checks this thread everytime I log on.
Last edited by setzep; 08-25-01 at 08:26 AM.
08-25-01, 01:27 PM
#27
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TOG is used to set the amount of fuel required at full load and maximum RPM. Usually about 7mS ; this time is dependent on maximum RPM. IOT is used to produce an acceptable idle when using injectors that produce a large TOG. Most cars will start and run with a TOG of 6.5-7mS and an IOT of -.2 to .2. Do not adjust TOG to change idle fuel mixture, only adjust IOT! I will explain in more detail shortly -- I am just running out the door to go work on mine!! hehe..
Try those numbers and see what happens!
Also, if you email me the details of your setup, I can send you back a program that will get you up and running.
Try those numbers and see what happens!
Also, if you email me the details of your setup, I can send you back a program that will get you up and running.
08-25-01, 02:31 PM
#28
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Exit13B,
Thanks for the advice. I tried getting my car running today, but it won't start.
I was hoping to get it running today, but it will probably still run like crap. I'll e-mail you with the details. If you can help me out you'll be my hero. 
Jim
Thanks for the advice. I tried getting my car running today, but it won't start.
I was hoping to get it running today, but it will probably still run like crap. I'll e-mail you with the details. If you can help me out you'll be my hero. Jim
Originally posted by Exit13B
TOG is used to set the amount of fuel required at full load and maximum RPM. Usually about 7mS ; this time is dependent on maximum RPM. IOT is used to produce an acceptable idle when using injectors that produce a large TOG. Most cars will start and run with a TOG of 6.5-7mS and an IOT of -.2 to .2. Do not adjust TOG to change idle fuel mixture, only adjust IOT! I will explain in more detail shortly -- I am just running out the door to go work on mine!! hehe..
Try those numbers and see what happens!
Also, if you email me the details of your setup, I can send you back a program that will get you up and running.
TOG is used to set the amount of fuel required at full load and maximum RPM. Usually about 7mS ; this time is dependent on maximum RPM. IOT is used to produce an acceptable idle when using injectors that produce a large TOG. Most cars will start and run with a TOG of 6.5-7mS and an IOT of -.2 to .2. Do not adjust TOG to change idle fuel mixture, only adjust IOT! I will explain in more detail shortly -- I am just running out the door to go work on mine!! hehe..
Try those numbers and see what happens!
Also, if you email me the details of your setup, I can send you back a program that will get you up and running.
08-25-01, 05:15 PM
#29
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I'm following along too... Just removed the hood this afternoon.
Anybody got a dyno sheet for a BP'ed TII?
I'm wondering if a divided manifold/divided tang housing will bring up the low end torque? Thoughts anyone?
All best,
Steve C.
Anybody got a dyno sheet for a BP'ed TII?
I'm wondering if a divided manifold/divided tang housing will bring up the low end torque? Thoughts anyone?
All best,
Steve C.
08-25-01, 07:09 PM
#30
The BP turbo motor can be done to produce higher torque than the SP motor in the 4500 rpm to redline useable power band! Yes the divided manifold does help with quicker spool up also!
crispeed
87TII
9.20@150mph
crispeed
87TII
9.20@150mph
08-28-01, 03:13 PM
#33
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Blap! Blap! Blap! Blap! Blap!
Another quick update. I finally drove the car yesterday, although not completely finished. I finished removing more of the factory wiring including the ugly fuse block on the shock tower, relocated the battery, and installed the new drivers and fuel pump relays. I also finished up the NOS install, aside from a couple AN fittings I am waiting on. The AVC-R is installed, as well as the broad-band 02 sensor.
I now have to build a small op-amp circuit to scale the broadband's 5v output to a linear 1v output for input to the TEC. This will allow me to datalog true broadband, as well as use the Auto VE feature for the fuel maps. I may decide to feed this scaled output to the standard A/F guage so that it will have broadband display as well. Hopefully this will be finished today so that I can see the dyno as soon as tomorrow.
Chrispeed was sure right about one thing. This thing wants a TON of fuel once it gets on the port. I will attach a picture of my 3D VE table once I am done tuning so others can visualize it. It looks very flat in vacuum, and then hits like a mountain into the boost! Oh, vacuum? Try 4-5 mmHg at idle! Sure, it will pull more vacuum at a higher idle, but there is some serious overlap here! The Electromotive has a BLEND feature that might be very useful on the BP. It is designed to be used for piston engines with extreme cams that do not develop considerable vacuum related to load at low RPM's. Basically, the MAP sensor is useless until the engine is 'on the cam'. Blend allows the tuner to use TPS as a percentage of MAP to calculate correct load for low RPM's. Score one for the TEC 2! I'll try to post more about my attempts at this as well.
I can neither recommend for or against this setup yet since I have not gotten into boost yet, but it sounds wicked as all hell. It is my dream idle, aside from a PP. The sound of an alcohol breathing big block, sans pisstons and alky! The car seemed very driveable, aside from the non-streetable transmission, so I think others may have fun with this porting on the street. If anyone would like to see specific pictures, closeups, etc.. Let me know! I'll try to get a sound captured shortly too for everyone's aural pleasure.
Red-Rx7: The seals are installed upside down on the rear housing so that the corner piece of the apex seal cannot be swallowed by the port -- but only because the engine is a partial bridgeport. This puts the small piece on the inner (unported) housing for both rotors. The front rotor is already correct, and only the rear must be changed.
George
I now have to build a small op-amp circuit to scale the broadband's 5v output to a linear 1v output for input to the TEC. This will allow me to datalog true broadband, as well as use the Auto VE feature for the fuel maps. I may decide to feed this scaled output to the standard A/F guage so that it will have broadband display as well. Hopefully this will be finished today so that I can see the dyno as soon as tomorrow.
Chrispeed was sure right about one thing. This thing wants a TON of fuel once it gets on the port. I will attach a picture of my 3D VE table once I am done tuning so others can visualize it. It looks very flat in vacuum, and then hits like a mountain into the boost! Oh, vacuum? Try 4-5 mmHg at idle! Sure, it will pull more vacuum at a higher idle, but there is some serious overlap here! The Electromotive has a BLEND feature that might be very useful on the BP. It is designed to be used for piston engines with extreme cams that do not develop considerable vacuum related to load at low RPM's. Basically, the MAP sensor is useless until the engine is 'on the cam'. Blend allows the tuner to use TPS as a percentage of MAP to calculate correct load for low RPM's. Score one for the TEC 2! I'll try to post more about my attempts at this as well.
I can neither recommend for or against this setup yet since I have not gotten into boost yet, but it sounds wicked as all hell. It is my dream idle, aside from a PP. The sound of an alcohol breathing big block, sans pisstons and alky! The car seemed very driveable, aside from the non-streetable transmission, so I think others may have fun with this porting on the street. If anyone would like to see specific pictures, closeups, etc.. Let me know! I'll try to get a sound captured shortly too for everyone's aural pleasure.
Red-Rx7: The seals are installed upside down on the rear housing so that the corner piece of the apex seal cannot be swallowed by the port -- but only because the engine is a partial bridgeport. This puts the small piece on the inner (unported) housing for both rotors. The front rotor is already correct, and only the rear must be changed.
George
08-28-01, 04:29 PM
#34
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Why did you go with a partial bridgeport? It seems like shooting yourself in the foot. You get all of the overlap and drawbacks of a full bridge but only half of the flow?
Am I missing something here? How is a partial bp more streetable than a full bp?
Granted it sounds like fun and I think high overlap turbo rotaries have been taboo with the major tuners. Of cource they have to apeal to the masses and most people do not consider a bp to be acceptible for street use. But you can't argue with the power
Can someone please post a turbo bp dyno sheet?
-Dom
Am I missing something here? How is a partial bp more streetable than a full bp?
Granted it sounds like fun and I think high overlap turbo rotaries have been taboo with the major tuners. Of cource they have to apeal to the masses and most people do not consider a bp to be acceptible for street use. But you can't argue with the power
Can someone please post a turbo bp dyno sheet?
-Dom
08-28-01, 06:26 PM
#35
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Speaking of overlap, did you do any exhaust porting, particularly any "raising" of the top of the port?
I'd *love* to see some detailed intake porting pics. I can post 'em if space is needed.
A friend that has done some porting says AIR grinders are the only way to go - says the housings are too hard for electric grinders. Opinions...?
About the divided manifold/divided tangential turbine. My theory is that the stronger exhaust pulses would spin the compressor early in the revs (provided its not a T99, and provided the A/R is .96 or maybe 1.15) creating early boost, overcoming the low intake velocity, and hopefully make more bottom end torque...
Steve C.
Rambling.
I'd *love* to see some detailed intake porting pics. I can post 'em if space is needed.
A friend that has done some porting says AIR grinders are the only way to go - says the housings are too hard for electric grinders. Opinions...?
About the divided manifold/divided tangential turbine. My theory is that the stronger exhaust pulses would spin the compressor early in the revs (provided its not a T99, and provided the A/R is .96 or maybe 1.15) creating early boost, overcoming the low intake velocity, and hopefully make more bottom end torque...
Steve C.
Rambling.
Last edited by qwck10th; 08-28-01 at 06:28 PM.
08-30-01, 08:31 AM
#38
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Red-Rx7: The seals are installed upside down on the rear housing so that the corner piece of the apex seal cannot be swallowed by the port -- but only because the engine is a partial bridgeport. This puts the small piece on the inner (unported) housing for both rotors. The front rotor is already correct, and only the rear must be changed.
what do you do when you have a full bridgeport,theres no point in turning the corner seal baclwards!the bridge would be on all end plates,therefor the seal would have to go past it.
Thats why they leave a bit of a strip so the seal cannot drop in.
Im not knew to this but am i missing something????...i did bridgeports myself.
08-30-01, 10:26 AM
#39
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Originally posted by crispeed
Hey George!
Who makes that radiator and for how much?
That **** is FAT!!
crispeed
87TII
9.20@150mph
Hey George!
Who makes that radiator and for how much?
That **** is FAT!!
crispeed
87TII
9.20@150mph
08-30-01, 03:35 PM
#40
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Originally posted by MAZMAN
what do you mean the corner seal would be swallowed by the port???
what do you do when you have a full bridgeport,theres no point in turning the corner seal baclwards!the bridge would be on all end plates,therefor the seal would have to go past it.
Thats why they leave a bit of a strip so the seal cannot drop in.
Im not knew to this but am i missing something????...i did bridgeports myself.
what do you mean the corner seal would be swallowed by the port???
what do you do when you have a full bridgeport,theres no point in turning the corner seal baclwards!the bridge would be on all end plates,therefor the seal would have to go past it.
Thats why they leave a bit of a strip so the seal cannot drop in.
Im not knew to this but am i missing something????...i did bridgeports myself.
Still no one has answered my question about why you would go with a partial bp, Cris? George? Cris are you running a full bridge in your motor? What seals are you running?
Also if you were to do a partial bp, why the end housings and not the center housing? That way you hose one piece if you don't like it.
-Dom
08-30-01, 08:12 PM
#41
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Originally posted by risc
Not the corner seal, the corner piece of the apex seal. With a partial bridge you can use 2 piece seals. Not that there is a good reason to beause the sealing advantage of the 2 piece is lost well before you get into the power of a bp and are more prone to breakage.
-Dom
Not the corner seal, the corner piece of the apex seal. With a partial bridge you can use 2 piece seals. Not that there is a good reason to beause the sealing advantage of the 2 piece is lost well before you get into the power of a bp and are more prone to breakage.
-Dom
BP's and PP's are torque monsters, compared to conventional side port engines...
What the problem is that when people do a BP and more especially a PP is that they neglect air speed, if you run a BP with true primary runner function only to keep the air speed up, it absolutley "*****" on a side ported engine from ANY revs above and including 2000 rpm...infact the VE% even at these low revs is around 20 to 30% higher than in a side port.
Air Speed is one of the most important looked over and confused issue with regards to any engine including rotaries, Nothing beats the operating principal of the Peripheral port or Bridge port in making POWER in high load situations at any rpm provided the air speed is kept up to accepted levels. NSU proved this 40 years ago, as have many other more current companies involved in RE research.
The only thing BP's and PP's are not good at is low load operation where you are cruising: ie not trying to make good power, they have always required more fuel ie higher BSFC and generaly richer a/f ratio to operate effectivley in this capacity ESCPECIALY COMPARED TO CONVENTIONAL SIDE PORTS (regardless of technology) THIS IS THE REASON WHY THEY ARE NOT USED IN PRODUCTION BY MAZDA.
Oh and I can show you a graph of a self adjusting apex seal running from 1000rpm in a peripheral port engine compared to a one piece seal in a side port and the PP has much greater chamber pressure across every rpm band due to the better apex seal.
08-30-01, 09:16 PM
#43
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I typed a novel in response to all the questions.
I got real angy when my page refreshed for no reason.
I typed a message, kind of like this one, saying that I typed a novel, and it was lost, and that I would re-type it next week.
I proceeded to re-type the novel, even longer and better than the first time against my initial statement.
This novel was then lost. I am even more angry now.
I'll update everyone when I get back from vacation this weekend.
Arghh!!!
Oh, the engine is fine...
I got real angy when my page refreshed for no reason.
I typed a message, kind of like this one, saying that I typed a novel, and it was lost, and that I would re-type it next week.
I proceeded to re-type the novel, even longer and better than the first time against my initial statement.
This novel was then lost. I am even more angry now.
I'll update everyone when I get back from vacation this weekend.
Arghh!!!
Oh, the engine is fine...
08-30-01, 09:26 PM
#44
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I am seriously interested in this conversion!!!!
Any pics that you can post of the porting, timing of the ports and all that good stuff would be invaluable!!!
I would love to hear the thing idle and get your impressions of power and drivability... BRING IT ON!!!!
Any pics that you can post of the porting, timing of the ports and all that good stuff would be invaluable!!!
I would love to hear the thing idle and get your impressions of power and drivability... BRING IT ON!!!!
08-31-01, 05:53 AM
#45
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LOL
I typed a novel in response to all the questions.
I got real angy when my page refreshed for no reason.
I typed a message, kind of like this one, saying that I typed a novel, and it was lost, and that I would re-type it next week.
I proceeded to re-type the novel, even longer and better than the first time against my initial statement.
This novel was then lost. I am even more angry now.
I'll update everyone when I get back from vacation this weekend.
Arghh!!!
Oh, the engine is fine...
I got real angy when my page refreshed for no reason.
I typed a message, kind of like this one, saying that I typed a novel, and it was lost, and that I would re-type it next week.
I proceeded to re-type the novel, even longer and better than the first time against my initial statement.
This novel was then lost. I am even more angry now.
I'll update everyone when I get back from vacation this weekend.
Arghh!!!
Oh, the engine is fine...
-Brian
08-31-01, 10:49 AM
#46
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
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Some bones before I leave..
Sure, I am less than an hour from leaving with a huge to-do list, but here are some pictures for the ambitous to follow, and start destroying their engines over the weekend. I am too lazy to upload the pictures to my server, so I will have to post multiple responses. The first picture, below, shows how I used Dykem to mark the port area without a template. I used an old rotor, and slightly sharpened a corner seal to get nice tracking marks on the dykem. The outermost mark is the limit for the BP -- well, for me anyways. It is possible to lower the floor slightly further without eating the side seal (or apex seal), but I wanted the largest bridge area that was possible. The arrow I scratched in shows the width of the port I was to create. I did not go into the water seal at all; I left a very small lip to help retain the o-ring. The housing was drilled on a press multiple times to remove as much material as possible before using a small stone to finish shaping the port. I followed the same rules as with a street port: go as fas as possible without compromising housing thickness into the water jacket, and contour to suit.
08-31-01, 10:54 AM
#47
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Oh, and before anyone asks... the goop in the 0-ring groove is hylomar. Remember, the engine was all back together except for the rear housing! So, I had to pull everything back apart when the voting went for BP. Yes, I cleaned it all out again before re, re-assembling. (follow?).
Ok, this picture is the template I made of the port after I was finished. This used to be my streetport template, but alas no more... (although it could still be used for this purpose). To make the template, I drilled a few pilot holes, and then used the dremel with a very soft stone. I let the stone follow the contour of the port in the housing, which transferred it onto the template. This actually takes more patience than cutting the port itself!
Don't ask about the name. I have a habit of naming everything "mega" this or that... you would not want to see the names on most of my laser lighting equipment... trust me, its all mega something or other...
Ok, this picture is the template I made of the port after I was finished. This used to be my streetport template, but alas no more... (although it could still be used for this purpose). To make the template, I drilled a few pilot holes, and then used the dremel with a very soft stone. I let the stone follow the contour of the port in the housing, which transferred it onto the template. This actually takes more patience than cutting the port itself!
Don't ask about the name. I have a habit of naming everything "mega" this or that... you would not want to see the names on most of my laser lighting equipment... trust me, its all mega something or other...
08-31-01, 10:59 AM
#48
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Yet another comment on the top dykem marked picture: the light line parallel to the o-ring groove that is in the middle of the arrow shows where the housing covers about half of the port.
Below, you can see how the rotor housing was cut to allow flow from this part of the port. I saw that most builders really cut the h*ll out of the housing, but I did not get as carried away. My though was to maximize apex seal contact area, and minimize weakening the engine -- my results follow below.
Ok, that's all for now! I'm going to go relax, and then hopefully come back and get some of the video captured, converted and uploaded. Oh, maybe I'll re-type that novel, too!
Below, you can see how the rotor housing was cut to allow flow from this part of the port. I saw that most builders really cut the h*ll out of the housing, but I did not get as carried away. My though was to maximize apex seal contact area, and minimize weakening the engine -- my results follow below.
Ok, that's all for now! I'm going to go relax, and then hopefully come back and get some of the video captured, converted and uploaded. Oh, maybe I'll re-type that novel, too!
08-31-01, 09:33 PM
#49
Weird Cat Man
Great Stuff, Keep it Coming
This thread rocks! I'm doing a streetport on my car right now... I haven't started cutting on my 93 housings yet... I'm practicing on some old 87 TII bits I have in the garage.
My main concerns are how far to scoop out the port. Cutting the face is easy... but what shape do I go for as I'm cutting down into the housing? Smooth with the flow I suppose. I'm going to intentionally drill through to the water jacket on my scrap TII end plate and see how much material is there.. it seems to be about the same thickness as on the 93 part....
Please post some sound clips of your engine! I want to hear that thing! I can put them on my website if you guys need some space.
Brian
87 TII
93 R1
My main concerns are how far to scoop out the port. Cutting the face is easy... but what shape do I go for as I'm cutting down into the housing? Smooth with the flow I suppose. I'm going to intentionally drill through to the water jacket on my scrap TII end plate and see how much material is there.. it seems to be about the same thickness as on the 93 part....
Please post some sound clips of your engine! I want to hear that thing! I can put them on my website if you guys need some space.
Brian
87 TII
93 R1
09-06-01, 01:46 PM
#50
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Off to the dyno..
Well, I have a dyno reserved for the entire evening, and everything else seems to be ready! If the rotary gods are favorable upon my creation, I might even have some numbers to report back. I am only doing some baseline tuning beyond what I have done on the street so far, with boost levels up to 15PSI. I plan to get more miles on the engine, and a feel for how the engine responds at the track before I return to the dyno and tune at higher boost levels -- plus, the engine will be more thoroughly broken in.
I put almost 80 miles on the engine in heavy suburban traffic -- which consumed an entire tank of gas!! My only complaint is the blisters I am getting on my fingers from this sequential shifter. Ouch! I am very happy with the streetability of the engine, sans 4 puck clutch disc and straight cut sequential transmission. So far I have been logging data with the TEC, and then stopping every mile or so and re-adjusting the maps. I finished my broadband 02 interface to the TEC last night, so this helped the tuning effort tremendously. I have tuned most of the maps up to 5PSI, but it has started getting difficult due to high speeds and limited space to tune. Sooo... its time for the dyno. I am very nervous since this is where the last engine perished due to the EVC failure.
I have just a couple hours to finish making my transmission cover, and go for my appointment. I am taking a few friends along (rx-7s of course) that will run their cars while mine is cooling in between sessions; heck, I might even take my 3rd gen just for fun... I will be armed with the video camera, so hopefully I can dump some of this down to the website shortly. Wish me luck!
George
I put almost 80 miles on the engine in heavy suburban traffic -- which consumed an entire tank of gas!! My only complaint is the blisters I am getting on my fingers from this sequential shifter. Ouch! I am very happy with the streetability of the engine, sans 4 puck clutch disc and straight cut sequential transmission. So far I have been logging data with the TEC, and then stopping every mile or so and re-adjusting the maps. I finished my broadband 02 interface to the TEC last night, so this helped the tuning effort tremendously. I have tuned most of the maps up to 5PSI, but it has started getting difficult due to high speeds and limited space to tune. Sooo... its time for the dyno. I am very nervous since this is where the last engine perished due to the EVC failure.
I have just a couple hours to finish making my transmission cover, and go for my appointment. I am taking a few friends along (rx-7s of course) that will run their cars while mine is cooling in between sessions; heck, I might even take my 3rd gen just for fun... I will be armed with the video camera, so hopefully I can dump some of this down to the website shortly. Wish me luck!
George
