twinsinside

iTrader: (34)

Well, judging by toyz+ photos we need to have Mazda issue a recall on the center light, since it seems to have equal light output to the GB tail brake lights

Anaway, lookin forward to your next version, I'm sure they'll end up burning holes in people's pupils. Maybe hook up some sparkler sticks to them as well or something.

BizarroTerl

Are you looking at the 3rd picture down marked "Brake lights as you can see by the center light"?
Isn't the 99 spec lights on the left and the GB lights on the right? It appears to me that the GB brake lights are not near as bright as the 99 spec. The center brake light is somewhere between.

twinsinside

iTrader: (34)

What I'm saying is that in all the photos, the center brake light is much closer in intensity to the LED lights than the OEM ones. Why is that?

I wouldn't expect such a disparity on lighting between the stock center brake light and the OEM left/right brake lights, which seems to be obviously brighter in the photos.

Aeka GSR

iTrader: (4)

Light tends to "clean up" when you put it through the slit that is the 3rd brake light. Kinda like how you can look at the sun through a pinhole.

BizarroTerl

I took a look back through this thread and as far as the center brake light it's inconclusive. Discounting pictures/videos that don't give a realistic view -
Davids OP - 2 videos 1 with 3rd light as nearly as bright as the OEM/99 spec lights and significantly better the the Theorie light. The other that shows the 3rd as brighter then the Theorie lights.

SBGarage's post (13) pic of Tom's and a 99 spec - The GB rx7 shows comparable intensity across all three, as does the 99 spec. The center on the 99 spec 3rd appears brighter than the GB.

Toyzzz post (21) The center is brighter than the GB lights and dimmer than the 99 spec.

This seems to indicate that the 3rd brake light intensity varies, which is understandable in a vehicle that's over a decade old.

The age well as the wiring condition and voltage at the bulb all affect brightness. This can be said for every OEM & 99 spec picture/video in this thread. Fixing any of these though, only makes the bulb brighter.

As for the LED tails, one of the reasons they're so popular is that they don't suffer from aging to the extent that incandescents do. Because these are in almost every case virtually new there isn't a reason to suspect any aging effects on them.

Last, every picture/video in this thread showing OEM vs LED is compromised. They're a interpretation made by the camera. Incandescents generate light in all bandwidths, while LEDs emit at a limited frequency (or set in the case of "white"). How do we know if the camera is showing what we would see or just the portion its design allows? We don't. All we can do is take the word of the person that took the picture/video, and that is compromised by what they want to see.

theorie

iTrader: (31)

Again, I don't know what else to say.

BizarroTerl

Are there any pictures of the superbrite LEDs and the OEMs side by side or both on the same rx7?

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

As far as I can tell there are two takeaways from this thread.

1) The original run of Theorie's LED tail lights should probably be brighter for daytime effectiveness.
2) Theorie is working on a solution, and nearly has a prototype set ready.

Boom. Done.
Was there something else to be discussed?

t-von

iTrader: (8)

I agree! Case closed till the new prototypes come out.

IWINULUZ

iTrader: (10)

well since everything i wrote got deleted,

mod edit: Forum rules are clear that no linking to outside vendors of RX-7 or rotary parts are allowed unless they are paying Forum Vendors here, PERIOD.

Rob XX 7

iTrader: (8)

I had a similar issue with my own self modified lights, I know its a 2nd gen but maybe there is a better bulb option out there for you

https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generation-non-technical-pictures-198/lighting-upgrade-has-begun-5w-elef-led-959833/

btw- I put superbright LEDs in my daily driver and my pickup and after less then 6 months they are starting to flicker and fail, so if you are going for the LED upgrades go for better bulbs then their basic ones.

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

I am now done with my redesign of the Theorie led taillight units. Let me know if anyone is interested in the results.

2GSLSE

iTrader: (6)

Lets see em!!!

RotorMotor

iTrader: (5)

I'm sure you're going to post the results either way... nice teaser campaign. How does this relate to Theories lights though? You're saying, "these are dimmer than stock and here are numbers to prove it, and equal to stock is the yard stick to measure by" "oh wait a sec, here's how bright *I* just made em"

I think if you made them as bright or brighter than stock then you succeed. So a simple "yeah i made them as bright as stock" or not probably would suffice. We're doing our own testing as I type this with our prototypes in front of us. But a solution isn't a solution if they aren't practical to implement on a large scale, prove successful in various test conditions, and are tested for durability over time. As you yourself only noticed a "problem" with them a year later, we're working to make sure we won't have a repeat of this back and fourth NEXT year. Not only do we have to worry about light output, that has to be balanced with thermal management (or suffer LED failures in the future). They also can't be TOO bright (look into the DOT codes) or you'll blind someone, they'll run into the back of your car, and then you could get sued for wrongful death

theorie

iTrader: (31)

Well since we're on topic, might as well share a few heads-up comparison shots.

Took these photos in harsh, direct afternoon sunlight with the cars facing away from the sun (so the sun is shining directly on the back of the cars). The lights appear even brighter in any other condition, so this type of natural lighting is the benchmark.

Photos are unedited, directly out of the camera.

On the left is JhnRx7's car with '99-spec tails, on the right is my car with Version 1 on Driver's side and the new Version 2 on the Passenger's side:

I would definitely say they look brighter in person too. The camera seems to under-meter the exposure time because it was so damn bright outside. I drove from Philly to DE with JhnRx7 behind me the whole time and he said the new prototype was clearly visible the entire drive, both parking/driving lights and brake lights.

Parking/driving lights (new prototype on Passenger's Side):


Parking/driving lights (new prototype on Passenger's Side), in this pic JhnRx7's car is in the shade, and my car is in direct sunlight:


Brake lights (new prototype on Passenger's Side):


Also, on the new prototype, the outer brake center area has a slight dim spot because I broke one of the resistors when doing voltage testing, oops! Good thing its just a prototype.

Anyway, as you can see the new version is clearly visible even in extreme lighting conditions. I've also figured out a way to increase brightness a bit more when the brakes are applied. Had to come up with a new wiring layout for the pigtail connector and still testing out the function but so far, so good.

hades

iTrader: (4)

the new version looks great. If they have good bulb life then I think there will be a lot of happy people - i.e. new customers.

$lacker

iTrader: (9)

Version 2 looks fantastic... looking forward to it

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

As I posted, I have now completed the redesign and testing of the Theorie LED taillight conversion. The lights are now built to my standards and the results are as follows. Versus the Theorie LEDs, they are:

17X brighter than the parking lights
58X brighter than the brake lights, and
16X brighter than the turn signals

Remember, to make them equal to the OEM units, the new design needed to be at least 5X brighter than the SBG parking lights and about 25X brighter than the brake lights. The new design is also brighter than the OEM 99 spec units (and the stock units as well). The units are now safe, are made with superior LEDs and materials, and include proper heat sink and thermal management. The lights can also be dimmed if proven to be too bright.

Links to videos of the new design LEDs:

Comparison videos of the New Design versus the Theorie LED conversions:

Parking Lights

Video in dark of New Design parking lights (left) and Theorie parking lights (right)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tjy6b79_Nk8

Brake Lights

Video in dark of New Design brake lights (left) and Theorie lights (right)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q958SDZVryQ

Outdoor Video

Video of New Design (left) versus Theorie LEDs (right) during the day in partial sunlight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amhHOSoYsIA

Outdoor Video

Video of New Design (left) versus OEM lights (right) during the day in partial sunlight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDDvyD4M3_Y


Pics of the New Design versus the Theorie LED lights:

Parking Lights in Sunlight







Brake Lights in Sunlight

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

New Design versus OEM lights:

Parking Lights



Brake Lights

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

I look forward to your testing results. About two months ago you indicated you had just received testing equipment and were going to test the Version 1 units. How did that turn out? If you'd like, I am available to test the Version 2 units so you could get an "apples to apples" test so to speak.

I also applaud your statement about testing the lights in various conditions and for durability. This was not done with Version 1 and the results were not favorable.

Let me know if I can help.

whiteweazel21

iTrader: (2)

Tom & David, both a really nice job as far as getting the lights brighter. Tom's photo's look underexposed on my screen so it is difficult to compare the lights, but it seems David's lights are brighter. At what point does bright become too bright? Tom said in an earlier post somewhere that his lights were already so bright they almost cause visual impairment (or was it retina burn?) We don't want accidents or issues from the lights being too bright either.

Personally I am biased towards Tom's perspective, but for all its worth, David really did prove himself by not being just talk and actually going ahead and making his own fix. The question is, will any of David's work help the community in getting a better, finished product available to club members? Also, how cost effective is David's method, and how will they hold up over time?

I know there is bad blood between you two guys, and I can understand why, but while these lights are in the testing phase for GB#2, I hope you guys can discuss your procedures, sources, and setup, whether these ideas are implemented in the second run of the product or not.

My 2¢

HalfSpec

iTrader: (14)

I'm interested in internal light temperature. Is anyone paying attention to that with these 'brighter' versions. I admit I've lost track of what LEDs both sides are using, but I know that LEDs that put out negligible amounts of heat is a thing of the past. Superbright LEDs put out significant heat and draw a decent amount of current. Star LEDs for example are used in flashlights and are very bright but they have to be properly heatsinked and even when they are the flashlights get worryingly hot. I understand that these lights use an acrylic ring to diffuse the lights and it's in very close proximity to the LEDs. Is there any worry about melting the rings with the brighter LEDs. How about the PCBs? If these are surface mount, it's possible that the heat can warp the PCB enough that it stresses the solder points to the point of breaking. Has anyone stuck a thermocouple in the light housing to see what the temps read in comparison to stock lights? How about a torture test for people that get stuck in traffic for hours at a time?

Lane

theorie

iTrader: (31)

This has always been one of my concerns, and one of the reasons why I didn't want to use anything "overpowered" in these tail lights. When I designed the lights I found myself working within very restricting light housings. I needed be able to make sure everything fit withing the tiny housings because I still wanted them to be weatherproof. Unfortunately, this means there is little to no room for thermal management, so the LEDs used can't get too hot because there would be no way to cool them.

The LEDs my Version 1 lights, and also the new ones used in the Version 2 lights, were selected because of a number of reasons - not just their brightness. I tried to find a good balance between brightness / cost / electrical draw / and heat generation. For the first GB, the conversion price point was set to $400 and we used the brightest LEDs that kept us in this price range and also kept in mind the other factors (e.g. heat).

For the Version 2 lights, we're obviously using brighter (and more) LEDs so heat is going to be a larger concern. Part of our ongoing testing includes making sure the lights aren't going to get hot and melt anything. This is why testing doesn't happen overnight...we're trying to take our time and get it right.

Unfortunately we won't be able to go to the level of LEDs that require thermal cooling because it would raise the price of materials and labor too high to make this practical. That is why we are still testing and making sure we have the right LEDs for the job.

turboIIrotary

iTrader: (9)

I'm pretty sure my post will get lost in everyones useless post so I will say it again is there any type of voltage regulation in Theories/SBG/David light setups? This is critical for leds unless you want them to burn out. Also I think everyone skims through the post to find a flaw just so they can make an argument and cause more bickering. According to David he has the ability to adjust the brightness so all the arguments involving his tails being too bright are worthless.

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

Yes, what I have redesigned uses proper voltage control. You are correct you'll blow the brake and turn signal LEDs for sure if you don't use them. You are also correct I have used DIMMABLE units so the issue of these being too bright can be controlled and the lights can be dimmed to any level desired.

And yes, they are also properly heat sinked and thermal managed as well. And contrary to what has been posted by others, there is plenty of room in the housings to accomplish all of the above.