Trots*88TII-AE*

iTrader: (11)

I was wondering if anyone has any experience with pump or race gas + methanol, specifically if it reacts strangely in combustion any way vs. straight methanol. I've read some SAE papers from Arghx on here that deal with methanol pre-ignition vs temperature, as well as sensitivity to plug electrode type, but can't find any clear answer on Methanol + gasoline.

Reason I ask, is my fuel setup on my drag FC is being arranged as a dual-fuel, I'm keeping the stock tank filled with gas (pump or race, unsure yet) feeding the primaries, and a dedicated fuel cell that I'm gonna fill with alcohol that will be staged in boost thru 8 x 1600's.

The reason I want to keep gas in it is for easier starting and street driving, cold weather starting (fall can approach 30*F), and to be able to drive to the nearest 1/4 mile track to me (currently ~450 KM's) Ethanol would be a better option (my mix at full load dutycyle would be close to E85), but availability around me is next to zero. I don't have enough injector to switch over to meth alone in boost, but that is another option. Tuning the would be another concern, and I don't feel like losing another engine to research, but I can't remember seeing anyone do this openly around here, if they are it is very hush-hush.

Thoughts?

Bacon

iTrader: (12)

Interesting hypothesis. I honestly can’t say I’ve ever seen/heard someone doing it, typically when you start using methanol, its dedicated to the track. But I like the theory behind where you’re heading.
However if you run 8x1600 you have more than enough meth. I mean I made 733 on a fat tune @ 32psi with 8x1600. . Also 2 entire fuel systems, separate, a lot of extra work…..

For the purpose I find it interesting, but I think you may be better suited making a way to have a tune just for the primaries on pump/race to get yourself to the track, then change maps to methanol map, and either swap the injector clips to 2 on the methanol system, or build some sort of the 3 way valve to the primaries to switch from gas to meth at the track, and then back again for the ride home…

sdelong2

iTrader: (5)

Sub'ed. Mike@UPR introduced this idea to me last month and I think we're going to roll with it. Car wont be up for a few months but once it is Ill include some results!

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

Check out yellowbullet.com There are a few guys over there with dual fuel setups. It's nothing radical in terms of the idea, just pretty intensive from a parts stand point.

sdelong2

iTrader: (5)

Most of my searches ended up yielding results to yellowbullet! Great resource for knowledge.

C. Ludwig, do you know if the Haltech flex fuel sensor will measure methanol? Figured I'd ask to be sure. Then I could possibly avoid running a completely separate fuel system to run the Meth...

DeaconBlue

iTrader: (31)

Pretty plain English description of what needs to be done and how systems work involving Flex Fuel and E85.

http://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/view...text=auto_pres

The sensor works by measure the fuel's; conductivity, temperature and dielectric strength. I highly doubt that Methanol content will have the same exact effect as Ethanol, so I doubt that these sensor will work correctly without some type of transfer function programming and there is no guarantee that that will work either.

There is also some real ugliness involved with the use of Methanol due to the fact that you can't leave it in the fuel system for long after stuck down. Most race engines get flushed with gasoline on shut down to keep it from fouling the system.

Your best bet maybe going with a more tried and true method such as Methanol or water/Methanol injection.

sleeper7

Also been thinking of running Meth with two 1000cc injectors mounted before the throttle body. Main fuel is E70. I have enough room in the engine bay for a one gallon fuel cell, pump, fpr and filters for the meth. Mounting the tank in the engine bay would make for a easy install. And have the two 1000cc injectors piggy back off the secondary injectors. The two 1000 are easy to remove and clean on the bench when needed.

IF done like this, you guys think between the E70 and meth, I could remove the intercooler? Currently running the main secondary injectors to 80/85%

thx

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

That's an interesting thought. As DeaconBlue pointed out, the sensor works off the dielectric characteristic of the fuel. Methanol and ethanol do have different dielectric values (33.1 and 24.3 respectively). But the sensor is still going to work in the same manner. It will output a different signal based on the resistance of the fuel. Since the mapping in the Haltech is fully scalable to whatever you want, I see no reason why it wouldn't work. I'll send out some emails and see what Haltech says.

Also, as DeaconBlue pointed out, methanol is pretty nasty stuff. You wouldn't want to let it sit and you'll need a fuel system built to handle it. But the flex fuel setup would make it a snap to flush it.

Trots*88TII-AE*

iTrader: (11)

I already have all the parts to put this together, and I'm not worried about the extra work. I'm taking my time this time on this build. I'm not really keen on the idea of mixing methanol with gasoline, because a large reason for me doing this is to keep it streetable with fuel consumption down if I need to take the highway to the track, plus I'm running an older Microtech which wouldn't allow tuning by flex fuel sensor input. I'm not really keen on the idea of a meth/water injection type setup either, because I am going to be using a fair amount of methanol, and would like some accurate metering.

I realize this isn't ground-breaking Chris, I'm just looking for some input from anyone else who may have any experience with methanol and gas together on rotaries, and if there are any issues I should be aware of. If I had an E85 station within 100 miles from me, that would be the way I would go without hesitation. The closest one to me is nearly 200 miles away, and apparently they won't sell to anyone whose VIN doesn't match a Flex-Fuel produced vehicle .

At the end of the day, whether I'm cruising or hitting the track, I want the setup to stay the same, no switching fuels/maps, or manually changing tanks, just stage the meth in boost. The engine is a 13B semi-pp with a 75mm turbo, and I'm looking to push 25-30 psi boost, putting it at or over 700 whp I would guess. I have an A2W cooler, but if the methanol pans out I'll probably get rid of it altogether.

Bacon, when I ran the calcs for injector flow I came up with not enough flow from the 8x1600's alone. Plus, I'll be running 3x Bosch 044's for fuel, not a mechanical pump, so I'm trying to keep the base pressure down, not sure what your setup was for the 8x 1600's. But, that doesn't mean it's not an option to switch off the primaries under boost with a pressure switch and NC relay or something, I just figured the extra 2x ID1000s of gas would help support an extra ~200 hp if needed, without dilluting the meth too much to be a problem. Again, these are the things I'm looking for feedback on, and appreciate everyone's input so far.

Keep the conversation going!

Bacon

iTrader: (12)

I love methanol. Yes the calculator will tell you that you don't have enough fuel, but you do. I was running .65-.68 lambda, 1025 egt post turbo, bw s475 @32 psi boost.. 40 psi base fuel press

All the headaches of methanol I've never experienced, I did however make sure every piece of alm in the fuel system was "hard" anodized, buy meth with lube and add a little castor 927, I never drained, flushed, or did anything to the fuel system all season. 65 passes, car sat at the longest 2 weeks during season...

Now I know alot of the real fast rotaries on alachol will pull and clean/lube the injectors if the cars gonna sit for more than 2 weeks,




Back to your setup, thought the 044 not rated for meth, feel like iirc some faliure stories doing so... You could buy a mech pump for what you could sell the 3x 044's for.... Feel like you should be able to order 85/98 from someone by the barrel.....
Or if you have 10 injectors just run race fuel, u got more than enough, just get yourself a good tune..

Steven Koenders

I've been doing this for 2 years now with my drag car. We have decided to not continue doing this for this coming season do to some problems that we could not overcome. I'll try and explain what we ran into
First I am going to tell you a couple of things that we have figured out and have been told by other people. Please bear with me; I hope it all makes sense in the end. When gas is in a rich stat of tune it can flood the spark plugs rendering them incapable of firing. Methanol will not do this as easily. In a rich stat of tune with methanol the excess methanol is used to cool the intake charge and combustion chamber and will just go out the exhaust, but be careful that the methanol doesn’t hydraulic your engine and cause major damage.
We were using 2x850cc primary (gas), 2x320cc primary (methanol), and 4x2000cc secondary (methanol). The problem we were having is with egt temperatures at the higher rpms (6500+). Idle was great, transition was great, but as the rpms went up so does the egt’s. Now the only way that we could get the temps down was to add more fuel, which worked up until we got to gas rich tuning stat. We now to be true, because of two reasons. One was that the exhaust would start to smoke black (methanol will not do that) and we could actually kill the engine between 7000-9000 rpm.
There was a couple of different options that we looked at doing to solve the problem. 1. Switch from pump gas to C-16. 2. Use smaller primary gas injectors and larger primary methanol injectors. 3. Go 100% methanol.
This year we are going to try the 3rd option as methanol is fairly cheap for us to run here. I pay under $400 for a drum of methanol where I was paying over $1300 for C-16.
Just so you know we made 502rwhp @ 18psi of boost on that set-up. The quickest pass I made was 10.23 @ 134mph.
Sorry to babble on, but that has been some of my experience on that set up. If you would like to talk to me about it email me at koendersracing@sasktel.net and I will give you my phone number.
Steve

Trots*88TII-AE*

iTrader: (11)

Thanks for the info! If you don't mind sharing, what was your timing like around peak torque, and what kind of ignition system/plugs were you using?

Steven Koenders

I had 18 degrees of timing. I use R6725 10.5 NGK plugs. I am running a Microtech LT-10s computer and 4 stock second gen coils.