My findings with RX Parts Seals
03-13-16, 10:46 AM
#1
My findings with RX Parts Seals
Since there are all these apex seal debates floating around, I thought I'd post some hard facts.
Measuring a seal with a harbor freight caliper or bending it with pliers tells me nothing. Just because a seal works great in a racing or aviation application doesn't mean it is ideal for a street car. Something that works on a daily driver might not work in a race car.
These started as brand new Mazda OEM rotor housings. The motor was a full IRP bridge port tuned to 580 wheel hp @ 20 psi on C16. It had about 2000 street miles and a season of drag passes with several 10 second time slips. This car was only using the factory oil metering pump. NO PREMIX whatsoever. Oil used in the motor was Rotella T 15w40. Aside from very minor normal wear and heat marks, there are absolutely no gouges, scratches, or chrome flaking on the housings. There is very little lift over the spark plugs and no cracking. The housings were only quickly cleaned of oil with parts cleaner. No abrasives were used.
For the record I feel every rotary should be premixed, even if running the oil metering pump, but I wanted to see how the housings would hold up without it. The motor is going back together with all the original hard parts and will be ready for another season of racing. This is why I exclusively recommend RX Parts apex seals over any other brand for any rotary making any power. Mazda oem seals work great for stock or near-stock applications, but simply cannot withstand detonation. Other seals may be super durable but will trash the rotor housings in a season. We run these in everything from modified street cars to full blown track cars.
With nearly 20 years experience with rotaries and hundreds of motor builds under my belt, I've tried just about everything out there. I'm not singling out any particular brand, but I found something that works and has given consistent results for over 5 years now. I am in no way sponsored or endorsed by RX Parts. I buy the seals from them just like anyone else and receive a small discount if I purchase in bulk. I can make significantly more profit by selling other seals, but found these to work better and wanted to pass that onto the community.
Measuring a seal with a harbor freight caliper or bending it with pliers tells me nothing. Just because a seal works great in a racing or aviation application doesn't mean it is ideal for a street car. Something that works on a daily driver might not work in a race car.
These started as brand new Mazda OEM rotor housings. The motor was a full IRP bridge port tuned to 580 wheel hp @ 20 psi on C16. It had about 2000 street miles and a season of drag passes with several 10 second time slips. This car was only using the factory oil metering pump. NO PREMIX whatsoever. Oil used in the motor was Rotella T 15w40. Aside from very minor normal wear and heat marks, there are absolutely no gouges, scratches, or chrome flaking on the housings. There is very little lift over the spark plugs and no cracking. The housings were only quickly cleaned of oil with parts cleaner. No abrasives were used.
For the record I feel every rotary should be premixed, even if running the oil metering pump, but I wanted to see how the housings would hold up without it. The motor is going back together with all the original hard parts and will be ready for another season of racing. This is why I exclusively recommend RX Parts apex seals over any other brand for any rotary making any power. Mazda oem seals work great for stock or near-stock applications, but simply cannot withstand detonation. Other seals may be super durable but will trash the rotor housings in a season. We run these in everything from modified street cars to full blown track cars.
With nearly 20 years experience with rotaries and hundreds of motor builds under my belt, I've tried just about everything out there. I'm not singling out any particular brand, but I found something that works and has given consistent results for over 5 years now. I am in no way sponsored or endorsed by RX Parts. I buy the seals from them just like anyone else and receive a small discount if I purchase in bulk. I can make significantly more profit by selling other seals, but found these to work better and wanted to pass that onto the community.
The following 3 users liked this post by IRPerformance:
03-15-16, 09:20 AM
#2
RX-7 Bad Ass
iTrader: (55)
Very nice! I think the new materials that apex seals are made of have come a LONG way of fixing the Achilles heel of the RX-7.
Nice that you could post up some conclusive results!
Dale
Nice that you could post up some conclusive results!
Dale
03-15-16, 11:38 AM
#3
Since there are all these apex seal debates floating around, I thought I'd post some hard facts.
Measuring a seal with a harbor freight caliper or bending it with pliers tells me nothing. Just because a seal works great in a racing or aviation application doesn't mean it is ideal for a street car. Something that works on a daily driver might not work in a race car.
These started as brand new Mazda OEM rotor housings. The motor was a full IRP bridge port tuned to 580 wheel hp @ 20 psi on C16. It had about 2000 street miles and a season of drag passes with several 10 second time slips. This car was only using the factory oil metering pump. NO PREMIX whatsoever. Oil used in the motor was Rotella T 15w40. Aside from very minor normal wear and heat marks, there are absolutely no gouges, scratches, or chrome flaking on the housings. There is very little lift over the spark plugs and no cracking. The housings were only quickly cleaned of oil with parts cleaner. No abrasives were used.
For the record I feel every rotary should be premixed, even if running the oil metering pump, but I wanted to see how the housings would hold up without it. The motor is going back together with all the original hard parts and will be ready for another season of racing. This is why I exclusively recommend RX Parts apex seals over any other brand for any rotary making any power. Mazda oem seals work great for stock or near-stock applications, but simply cannot withstand detonation. Other seals may be super durable but will trash the rotor housings in a season. We run these in everything from modified street cars to full blown track cars.
With nearly 20 years experience with rotaries and hundreds of motor builds under my belt, I've tried just about everything out there. I'm not singling out any particular brand, but I found something that works and has given consistent results for over 5 years now. I am in no way sponsored or endorsed by RX Parts. I buy the seals from them just like anyone else and receive a small discount if I purchase in bulk. I can make significantly more profit by selling other seals, but found these to work better and wanted to pass that onto the community.
Measuring a seal with a harbor freight caliper or bending it with pliers tells me nothing. Just because a seal works great in a racing or aviation application doesn't mean it is ideal for a street car. Something that works on a daily driver might not work in a race car.
These started as brand new Mazda OEM rotor housings. The motor was a full IRP bridge port tuned to 580 wheel hp @ 20 psi on C16. It had about 2000 street miles and a season of drag passes with several 10 second time slips. This car was only using the factory oil metering pump. NO PREMIX whatsoever. Oil used in the motor was Rotella T 15w40. Aside from very minor normal wear and heat marks, there are absolutely no gouges, scratches, or chrome flaking on the housings. There is very little lift over the spark plugs and no cracking. The housings were only quickly cleaned of oil with parts cleaner. No abrasives were used.
For the record I feel every rotary should be premixed, even if running the oil metering pump, but I wanted to see how the housings would hold up without it. The motor is going back together with all the original hard parts and will be ready for another season of racing. This is why I exclusively recommend RX Parts apex seals over any other brand for any rotary making any power. Mazda oem seals work great for stock or near-stock applications, but simply cannot withstand detonation. Other seals may be super durable but will trash the rotor housings in a season. We run these in everything from modified street cars to full blown track cars.
With nearly 20 years experience with rotaries and hundreds of motor builds under my belt, I've tried just about everything out there. I'm not singling out any particular brand, but I found something that works and has given consistent results for over 5 years now. I am in no way sponsored or endorsed by RX Parts. I buy the seals from them just like anyone else and receive a small discount if I purchase in bulk. I can make significantly more profit by selling other seals, but found these to work better and wanted to pass that onto the community.
There are so many seals out there nowadays, that making an informed decision is kind of hard. Seems like its a use OEM and pray that they don't brake and take at least 1/4 of your entire engine away, or use something that wont brake, but pay in clawed housings.
I had a terrible experience with the RA classic seals 15 years ago, and swear not to use them again. Life changes forced me to have my engine rebuild at speed1, and they used RA black seals, everything was said and done by the time I found out. I DD my FC, anywhere from 100 to 300 miles a week. Its been over 3 years and... I don't want to jinx myself
03-16-16, 08:42 AM
#5
Yup that was me. I'm not going to get into singling out other brands of seals, but I will say that I've used just about everything out there, and the RX Parts seals gave me the best and consistent results every time. Do your research and you will find plenty of info on others. Also don't be fooled by other so called shops that push a particular brand with no real world data.
I will say that RA Super Seals work well for racing applications where the car does not see many miles and longivity is not a concern. But remember that they were designed for an aviation application where time before overhaul is typically much sooner that in an automotive application, and the main concern was that the engine stay running long enough to land the plane even after a loss of compression. I love that people rant that they use them because they are cheap, but a pair of rotor housings costs significantly more than a set of seals. If you have a drag car that sees no street use, I would be ok with using them.
I will say that RA Super Seals work well for racing applications where the car does not see many miles and longivity is not a concern. But remember that they were designed for an aviation application where time before overhaul is typically much sooner that in an automotive application, and the main concern was that the engine stay running long enough to land the plane even after a loss of compression. I love that people rant that they use them because they are cheap, but a pair of rotor housings costs significantly more than a set of seals. If you have a drag car that sees no street use, I would be ok with using them.
Last edited by IRPerformance; 03-16-16 at 08:48 AM.
03-16-16, 09:22 AM
#6
How many miles are we talking about with the Super seals? I might put a max of 2-3k miles a year on my FD. If I had to do a motor every 5 or 6 years based on my mileage I would probably be ok with it. I don't trailer my car to events so it would be great to be able to drive the car back if I had an issue that would otherwise mean a long ride on a flatbed.
Thanks for posting your experience btw.
Thanks for posting your experience btw.
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03-16-16, 12:20 PM
#8
Yup that was me. I'm not going to get into singling out other brands of seals, but I will say that I've used just about everything out there, and the RX Parts seals gave me the best and consistent results every time. Do your research and you will find plenty of info on others. Also don't be fooled by other so called shops that push a particular brand with no real world data.
I will say that RA Super Seals work well for racing applications where the car does not see many miles and longivity is not a concern. But remember that they were designed for an aviation application where time before overhaul is typically much sooner that in an automotive application, and the main concern was that the engine stay running long enough to land the plane even after a loss of compression. I love that people rant that they use them because they are cheap, but a pair of rotor housings costs significantly more than a set of seals. If you have a drag car that sees no street use, I would be ok with using them.
I will say that RA Super Seals work well for racing applications where the car does not see many miles and longivity is not a concern. But remember that they were designed for an aviation application where time before overhaul is typically much sooner that in an automotive application, and the main concern was that the engine stay running long enough to land the plane even after a loss of compression. I love that people rant that they use them because they are cheap, but a pair of rotor housings costs significantly more than a set of seals. If you have a drag car that sees no street use, I would be ok with using them.
I too have noticed of shops out there having vast experience with seals that have not been out yet
How many miles are we talking about with the Super seals? I might put a max of 2-3k miles a year on my FD. If I had to do a motor every 5 or 6 years based on my mileage I would probably be ok with it. I don't trailer my car to events so it would be great to be able to drive the car back if I had an issue that would otherwise mean a long ride on a flatbed.
Thanks for posting your experience btw.
Thanks for posting your experience btw.
100 miles a week * 52 weeks a year = 5200 miles per year
5200 miles per year * 4 years = 20800 miles in 4 years
Lets say that because of winter, working on the car, and commuting on the motorcycle, I only DD the RX-7 half of the claim time, so that would be 10,400 miles in 4 years.
Lets assume I am inflating numbers, so take a 20% off due to inflation, that means that my engine has 8320 miles
My point is that you will be fine
BTW - No omp on my engine, premix 1oz per 1 gal.
03-17-16, 11:59 PM
#10
My 88 Turbo has 100k original,recent compression tested at 105 on both rotors,what are your thoughts on premixing,i.e. When I start making a little more boost,obviously I know the compression doesn't mean the internals are in perfect shape. But it does run great for what it has.
03-18-16, 08:34 AM
#11
My 88 Turbo has 100k original,recent compression tested at 105 on both rotors,what are your thoughts on premixing,i.e. When I start making a little more boost,obviously I know the compression doesn't mean the internals are in perfect shape. But it does run great for what it has.
I recommend EVERY rotary run premix, even if it has a functioning oil metering pump. Mazda had to restrict the amount of oil injected for emissions and it just isn't enough to protect the apex seals and rotor housings. Also, the injection point is in the center of the housings so the oil has trouble working its way to the edges. This, coupled with the original 3 piece apex seal design that puts a lot of pressure on the corner of the housings is why the edges tend to flake. If you look at the RX8 Renesis, Mazda added 2 oil injectors per rotor housing (and later 3 in the series 2 engines) to try to alleviate the problem, but they even further restricted the amount injected and made the car run too hot, again all to get through emissions and squeeze that last .005 mpg they could get out of the motor. Premixing properly can effectively double your engine life!
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TitoBT87 (08-20-20)
01-03-17, 01:11 AM
#14
[QUOTE=IRPerformance;12038584]Mazda oem seals work great for stock or near-stock applications, but simply cannot withstand detonation. Other seals may be super durable but will trash the rotor housings in a season. We run these in everything from modified street cars to full blown track cars.
QUOTE]
Got a few questions:
a) Is there a limit on how much boost you can run on the oem and/or the RXparts apex seals? Or any boost pressure is fine as long as there is no detonation? (assuming that all mods necessary to run more than 1.3bar of boost pressure exist)
b) Is there an estimation on how many miles one may expect from those seals before losing compression below acceptable levels? (assuming all due care is taken for lubrication etc)
c) Is there any info around on improvements on the Rx-Vision's apex seals.
QUOTE]
Got a few questions:
a) Is there a limit on how much boost you can run on the oem and/or the RXparts apex seals? Or any boost pressure is fine as long as there is no detonation? (assuming that all mods necessary to run more than 1.3bar of boost pressure exist)
b) Is there an estimation on how many miles one may expect from those seals before losing compression below acceptable levels? (assuming all due care is taken for lubrication etc)
c) Is there any info around on improvements on the Rx-Vision's apex seals.
01-04-17, 09:58 AM
#15
[QUOTE=Carpe_Diem_7;12137906]
a)Boost isn't really the limiting factor. The issue is that the more power you make, the more boost you run, the more heat you generate, the threshold for detonation becomes larger. One good knock will break a stock apex seal and cause internal damage 9 times out of 10. You can have a perfect tune and get away with it, but all it takes is 1 bad tank of gas to hurt the motor.
b)We have some highly modified cars running around with 20,000 miles or more on the motor with Rx Parts seals. Many of these are at the 500 wheel hp level or higher.
c)I have no info on those seals. I run and recommend what I have found works through my personal experience on my own cars.
Mazda oem seals work great for stock or near-stock applications, but simply cannot withstand detonation. Other seals may be super durable but will trash the rotor housings in a season. We run these in everything from modified street cars to full blown track cars.
QUOTE]
Got a few questions:
a) Is there a limit on how much boost you can run on the oem and/or the RXparts apex seals? Or any boost pressure is fine as long as there is no detonation? (assuming that all mods necessary to run more than 1.3bar of boost pressure exist)
b) Is there an estimation on how many miles one may expect from those seals before losing compression below acceptable levels? (assuming all due care is taken for lubrication etc)
c) Is there any info around on improvements on the Rx-Vision's apex seals.
QUOTE]
Got a few questions:
a) Is there a limit on how much boost you can run on the oem and/or the RXparts apex seals? Or any boost pressure is fine as long as there is no detonation? (assuming that all mods necessary to run more than 1.3bar of boost pressure exist)
b) Is there an estimation on how many miles one may expect from those seals before losing compression below acceptable levels? (assuming all due care is taken for lubrication etc)
c) Is there any info around on improvements on the Rx-Vision's apex seals.
b)We have some highly modified cars running around with 20,000 miles or more on the motor with Rx Parts seals. Many of these are at the 500 wheel hp level or higher.
c)I have no info on those seals. I run and recommend what I have found works through my personal experience on my own cars.
01-05-17, 10:08 AM
#16
[QUOTE=IRPerformance;12138353]
a)Boost isn't really the limiting factor. The issue is that the more power you make, the more boost you run, the more heat you generate, the threshold for detonation becomes larger. One good knock will break a stock apex seal and cause internal damage 9 times out of 10. You can have a perfect tune and get away with it, but all it takes is 1 bad tank of gas to hurt the motor.
b)We have some highly modified cars running around with 20,000 miles or more on the motor with Rx Parts seals. Many of these are at the 500 wheel hp level or higher.
c)I have no info on those seals. I run and recommend what I have found works through my personal experience on my own cars.
Thank you Ihor. Sounds great.
a)Boost isn't really the limiting factor. The issue is that the more power you make, the more boost you run, the more heat you generate, the threshold for detonation becomes larger. One good knock will break a stock apex seal and cause internal damage 9 times out of 10. You can have a perfect tune and get away with it, but all it takes is 1 bad tank of gas to hurt the motor.
b)We have some highly modified cars running around with 20,000 miles or more on the motor with Rx Parts seals. Many of these are at the 500 wheel hp level or higher.
c)I have no info on those seals. I run and recommend what I have found works through my personal experience on my own cars.