patman

iTrader: (3)

Ok, my project for the weekend was to convert the stock MOP to meter 2-stroke oil, since it has better lubricity and so that I can run 5 w50 synthetic in the crankcase. I figured I would take some pics and do a writeup in case any of you suckers are interested. So, here goes:

Parts/Tools list:

Parts:

6 qt of 5 w 50 --- -----------------$30
oil filter ----------- ----------------$9
3 qt 2 stroke oil-- ----------------$10
3 ft 7/32 vac hose-- -------------$5
1/4"?? brake bleeder screw----$3
junkyard washer tank with
level sensor (mazda truck)-----$5


Tools:
10mm wrench, socket
12mm wrench, socket
drill bit set
dremel
screw drivers

Next reply i'll start the write up with pics.

heres a couple:
1) engine bay b4 i started, blue circle is where the oil tank will go.
2) MOP stock mounted
3) ahhh, lubrication

patman

iTrader: (3)

Ok, first thing to do is remove the MOP (pic 1) , take off the lines, the 2 bolts that hold it on, and the cotter pin on the bottom of the actuator rod (pic 2)

Our goal is two things:
1) reroute the high pressure oil passage from the engine to the MOP, and vent it through the stock vent hole (pic 3), red arrows.

2) add a new hose nipple for our 2- stroke oil to enter the pump's inlet chamber (shown in (pic 4).)

patman

iTrader: (3)

I FORGOT SOME STUFF in top post, cant edit it now.
1) PREMIX an approprate amount of oil into your gas for this tank (50 or 100 to 1)
2) no need for 12mm wrench
3) sorry about the dirty *** engine bay, it was cold as **** and i didnt feel like getting wet washing it.

-----------------


To accomplish goal #1, we will drill a hole between the two passages, and make a metal gasket to seal off the MOP from the engine. camera ate the pic of the drilled hole, but what you want to do is remove a bit of metal so that the holes are connected behind the mounting surface of the pump. make sure to clean up all metal shavings.

i made the metal gasket out of a random piece of scrap i found, using a dremel and my dad's super sharp scissors (he'd be pissed if he knew)
(pic 1) is finished gasket

Next, we will add a hose nipple to the inlet chamber of the MOP. drill a small hole and tap the brake fitting into it. if youre careful it should tap itself in nicely. next take the fitting out, cut the end off right after the threads with the dremel, put some RTV on it, and screw it back in tightly, but not far enough to stick out past the end of the chamber.
(pic 2) is tapped hole
(pic 3) is installed hose nipple

clean the MOP really well, put the gasket on with liberal amounts of RTV, and reinstall it on the engine, leaving off the front two metering lines.
(pic 4) is MOP with gasket installed.

patman

iTrader: (3)

(pic 1) is MOP reinstalled

Now the tank:

remove the pump motor from the washer fluid tank.
make a metal block off plate with the dremel, i used one i already had laying around from my ASV block off.

pull the rubber seal off the pump motor and poke it back in the hole, then install the block off plate using a crapload of RTV, and forcing a couple screws into the plastic holes that the pump mounted in. I ended up drilling them out and using 10mm bolts with a nut on the other side.
(pic 2) is the block off plate installed on the tank

find a good spot for the tank in your engine bay somewhere, i wont go into detail on this because you might want to put it somewhere other than i did.
(pic 3) is the tank bracket mounted in my engine bay.
(pic 4) is the mounted tank

patman

iTrader: (3)

connect the tank to the MOP with the vac hose. fill it with just a little bit of 2-stroke oil.

CHANGE YOUR OIL NOW, drain the old, flush it with a quart of clean, lighweight oil or mmo, put the plug back in, put in the new 5 -50 and the new filter.

Test the system:

leave the bottom (MOP) end of the vac hose unhooked until it drips oil. hook it back up.
put a container under the MOP.
did you remember to premix?
start the car, let it warm for a second, and then run it at 2k rpm for 5 minutes, with the MOP actuator rod pulled all the way up. you should get a steady drip of oil from the MOP into the container, and when done, the bottom should be covered.

shut off the car and hook the other 2 metering lines up.
don't panic if you dont get any oil at first, it took mine a little bit to start pumping.

(pic 1) is my container, note the line of oil dribbling down.

Now your safety level switch, which is why we chose the Mazda tank.
hook a switched 12v wire (ignition on) to one of the wires from the level sensor. from the other, run a wire into the car, to a light of your choice, and ground the ohter side of the light. to test your sensor, drain the tank and turn the key on. the light should be on. fill the tank up and it should go off.

(pic 2) and (pic 3) are my warning light installed (green sucks, i'll get red later)

patman

iTrader: (3)

Youre good to go! I suggest premixing the next couple tanks, and keeping an eye on the oil level in your 2-stroke tank. make sure it drops a little. it should use oil at a ratio of 1 gallon oil per 100 gallons of gas used. assuming it seems to be working, you cna quit premixing after a couple tanks.

Any questions i'll be glad to answer them, and i'll get back with more results soon.

Pat

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

A couple of questions. I went outside and looked at an omp and a couple of different front covers. Why do you need to drill the 2 passages together on the front cover? My spare 12A front cover doesn't have an extra hole here. Since the pump is what is actually pulling the oil, I don't see why the tubes need to be connected. They both go to the same basic place. The rotary aviation adapter that installs in place of the omp doesn't need front cover mods. Just a question since this confuses me.

The oil pickup location on the pump is also confusing. How does it take the oil anywhere? That location looks like it is completely blocked off. I can't see how oil gets through it and into the pump. Then again, I can't see how the standard omp does it either.

Just a couple of questions because I like the idea.

patman

iTrader: (3)

OK,
1) you don't actually need to connect the two lines, but it is better this way, as it limits the pressure on the gasket between the cover and MOP. the oil passage right next to the shaft sees engine pressure (~80 psi with 5/50), and my gasket is relatively thin so that the shaft fits together better. if they are drilled together, all this pressure is vented directly into the front cover. you need oil here, because it lubricates the shaft from the eccentric shaft to the MOP.

2) yeah, i was stumped for a while. the actual pickup for the pump is hidden away in the corner. you can see t very well if you take the end plate off and remove the cam that is attatched to the metering actuator.

my pics of the MOP didnt turn out so well, but heres the best i can do:
pink is above the area where the inlet is. its just a little tiny hole.

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

It must be a real tiny hole because I can hold the thing in my hand and not see it. I cant' see anywhere else it would get oil from though.

This seems easy enough. I'm sure someone creative enough could do this mod on all of the other OMP's as well. The later ecu's won't through a check code if the device still physically works. I like it.

patman

iTrader: (3)

process should be exactly the same for later MOPs, custom parts will just be shaped a little bit different. glad ya like it.

rotariesrule

pat, you are wrong about the vacuum you just have to look at the 1985 mazda factory workshop manual on page 2 - 8. it says if you disconnect the oil metering lines from the carb and put a measuring cup under the lines to catch the oil. the lines should pump out 1.8~2.2cc in six minutes at 2000 rpm. this means it is pumping oil up against gravity without any vacuum. the stepper motor on the newer cars is merely controlling the control pin in the pump thus controlling the amount of oil flow.

omg, patman, that seems like a complete waste of time to do. mazda's original omp does a fine job using the regular motor oil. your mod adds weight to the car and creates one more thing you have to fill up. also, if there is too much oil on the rotor housing or a cylinder wall in a piston engine, the seal either a piston ring or apex seal will not seal as well. that is why recip pistons have whats called an oil scraper ring, it removes excess oil from the cylinder wall as the piston travels down.

patman

iTrader: (3)

#1) they do pump out oil. that's what I said. but they do not pump it with any appreciable pressure. the engine's vacuum supplies the pressure for the oil to be 'injected'. if you will rememeber correctly, my words were something to the effect of " provides a positive pumping pressure" sorry you didnt get that, but what i meant is that they push the oil without letting any flow backwards..therefore filling the tubes. then the engine sucks the oil in at velocity high enough to atomize it (or at least partially)

#2) if you think it is a waste of time, you have a lot to learn. the merits can be argued, but saying 'complete waste of time' is ignorant. here's why:

1) 2-cycle oil lubricates much, much better than motor oil. therefore less wear on the apex seals/rotorhousings.
2) 2-cycle oil does not take part in the combustion process to nearly the extent that engine oil does, therefore much less carbon.
3) engine oil is dirty and nasty, especailly towards the end of an oil change cycle, the 2-cycle from a tank is always fresh and clean.
4) many synthetic engine oils leave nasty deposits when burned. since i am no longer burning crankcase oil, i can use synthetic, which has many,many advantages over conventional oil.
5)since everything is external, i can always be sure the MOP is working.
6) motor oil lowers the octane rating of gas when mixed. 2-cycle oil does too, but not nearly as much.

#3) there is not going to be any more oil on the housing than there was before, i am using the same system, just different oil. also, too much oil on the housings is not a problem for rotaries like it is for piston engines. the oil scraper ring catches oil that is sloshed up from the crankcase. in rotaries no such thing can ever happen, as the apex seal is completely seperate.

#4) total weight is very little...maybe 5 lbs... tank only weighs a pound or so... oil is the main weight.

pat

TonyTurboII

So this is better than premixing how?

SnowmanSteiner

Less possibilitiy of clogging the fuel filter, you get a metered amount constantly where with premixing you could shoot a couple gallons through that haven't seen any oil. Just one way to ensure that you are getting proper lubrication at all times. Just check the tank every time you fill up, kinda like oil plugs etc.

- Steiner

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

The problem with premixing is that you are mixing it for a worst case scenario. You are not always giving the engine the amount of lubrication it needs. Most of the time you are giving it more. This is a waste. Yes you can get too much. The OMP meters it based on rpm or load. This still works the same way as stock. The change being that it is drawing 2 cycle oil from a reservoir rather than engine oil. No loss of engine oil over time and no dirty hot conventional oil to enter your engine and turn to carbon. Premixing is a bad idea for the street in my opinion. (had to throw the word "opinion" in there for the babies who bitch about details!) If you forget to premix, you are screwed. Don't premix in addition to keeping the OMP. This is also bad. Don't overdo it.

Rotary aviation makes an adapter that does the exact same thing as this but it is $80. This can be done for a few. It is how the car should have come from the factory.

patman

iTrader: (3)

rotary aviation is $88 (plus shipping?), and also it moves the MOP out an inch. that's why i chose to do this instead.

pat

a7r

RPM and load? You mean just like how ECUs control the amount of pre-mixed fuel is injected?

You're screwed if your OMP suddenly breaks; like mine did 3 weeks ago. Thankfully, it broke in the safe direction (i.e. dumping too much oil).

Either way, thanks for the write-up patman.

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

Nope nothing like it. It's an oil to fuel ratio change that the ecu does. Premix is fixed.

I've never seen a single mechanical pump break. The electronic ones send the car into limp mode when they go bad and you can't really drive it like that anyways.

patman

iTrader: (3)

never say never, but the only probable way for the mechanical one to break would be by getting clogged by dirty crankcase oil...which i just fixed. yay, me! lol.

another thing.... an adapter could be easily made to fit a mechanical MOP to the later model cars. also, i havent tried yet, but i bet you could trick the stock ecu into thinking the MOP was there fairly easily. when i get an FD i will be doing both these things. if someone is interested, i would be willing to do it to their FD for a very minimal price so that i can get a design made up and then sell the kit....

pat

Marcel Burkett

Anyone using an earlier model OMP on an FD , and anyone have a link to the RA adapters.

patman

iTrader: (3)

i dont know directly of anyone using one, but i am pretty sure there are. here is the link to the RA site:
http://rotaryaviation.com/oil_inject...p_adaptors.htm

also note that they are not made or sold by RA, only hosted on their site, which only increases my great amount of respect for them.

pat

Glazedham42

iTrader: (4)

Pat, just a quick question about your setup. What pushes the 2-stroke in your reservoir down to the metering pump? Are you just feeding the MOP with a piece of gravity fed rubber hose? This is the way I am taking it. So theoretically if you pulled the inlet hose off of your MOP, all the 2 stroke would run out of the reservoir onto the ground? I'm not saying this will ever happen, I'm just trying to get an idea of how your little invention works. Sort of like a siphon, right?? I like your setup. I'm going to see if I can come up with something similar for my 85 GS. I don't like the stock setup, and I don't fully trust premixing. Too easy for the gas and oil to separate in the tank. Thanks for this great writeup. I'd like to see more like this one...

Jamie

patman

iTrader: (3)

yes, the tank is fed by gravity. yes, if you pulled it off, it would leak all over the place. no, its not like a syphon... i made sure that it was all downhill so i cant get any air pockets. even so the pressure from the weight of the oil in the tank would still push it through.

also, i believe the MOP creates a tiny amount of suction...i have not veriified this, but due to the positive pressure design, it would make sense.

as far as popping off.... they fit pretty tight, so i'm not worried about it, but i did mean to zip tie the hoses on there anyway, i just forgot... i have since done it.

one more thing...while i think premixing sucks, you need not worry about the gas and oil seperating over any reasonable amount of time...they form a very stable mixture.

Glazedham42

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for the clarification Pat. Once I get my car back together I'm definitely going to look into a setup like this. Premixing is nice, but I would much rather have a reservoir of two-cycle like you've done.

Did you get that reservoir tank off of a B2000 Pickup?

Jamie

SPOautos

I dont know why you guys think Premixing sucks. I have some housings and irons that I ran premix only for about 10-11K miles and the housings looked awesome when I pulled it apart. In addition I was able to clean the very little amount of carbon off the rotors in about 10 minutes. This was on a 400+ rwhp FD that had the hell driven out of it daily.

I premix with Valvoline racing 2 stroke synthetic OR Amsoil racing 2 stoke synthetic. I use 16oz per tank which is almost one oz per gallon.

That aside, I like the idea of having a seperate pump, ect for the 2 stoke. I might try this myself. One problem is I have the elec pump and I'm not even sure where its at, its been off the car for about 2 years now.

Stephen