Dick Elliott

JUST remember that a bolt in cage (autopower/kirk) is bolted to 22 gage cold roll steel with a 6" square pad. Thats what should be outlawed. Not ERW!!! There no way the ERW cage could be weaker than the floor board of a uni-body car. The cage would push through the floor board LONG before the tubing failed. You know it and I know it.

cagedruss

Yeah, I totally agree with that Dick. I saw a driver die at Phoenix a few years back when his BMW slapped the front stretch wall on the drivers side. Had a bolt in cage and the upper halo allowed his head to reach the wall during impact. Even though the accident was a little freakish, I believe if the cage was properly designed and fitted, driver would have survived.

I personally believe with past experience using ERW, I would never use it unless I stepped up the the next wall thickness. I have done quite a few cars in the past that has ERW for the cage and I am certain the cages will do their job. But, I am a lot more comfortable knowing that all my cages now use a superior tube for construction.

Average cost increase for safety of material is an extra $1.75 per linear ft. That is pretty cheap insurance! We are never going to be able to change it back to the old rules of tubing, nor would I try. I even understand the princible of allowing bolt in cages, but, I do not agree with it. Most kits do not offer enough protection for the speeds of cars they are in.

I took out a very nice fabricated bolt in cage that was in a SPM Porsche and fabb'ed him a new cage. He spent nearly $900 plus shipping for his kit and was only a 6pt with no cross bracing to speak of, and his car was capable of exceeding 160 at will.

Who knows for sure, most of the time racing a crap shoot anyway. You could be cruising around your track with similar cars and cage designs, and then out of no where a 3500lbs 150 mph missle slams in to you and use your car as a bump stop. Big car wins, little car loses.

Either way, show us more pictures of cages you guys have or built. Love seeing them!

Dick Elliott

I agree with you 100%!!!! My only reason for answering this posting, was to show that DOM is really ERW to start with, and that SCCA hasn't got a clue how to enforce this rule. Best one the IT.Com web could come up with was to put a bore scope in through the 1/8" inspection hole. LOL. Thanks for your postings. You know your @#$%. DICK (71 and not counting) (better to be a has been, than a never was)

cagedruss

NHRA Division Techs use a hand held sonic tester. They measure a tube from 2 axis'. The meter tells what the wall diameter of each side of the material is, very accurate. That is one reason when somebody buys a drag cage kit, it comes in 1 3/4"x.134". Since ERW has crappy mill specs, I have seen a tube that was .125" rated to have 1 side as little as .113" and the other side .128". Once the tech finds any part of the cage or a tube to fall under the min. 118", the whole cage is illegal. They also do not measure the bends, knowing that the tube stretches during the bending process.

I have used and still use DOM 1 5/8"x.125" for all my Drag cages, supplier gives me a Mill spec sheet showing the lot has a variance of .002-.004". Subtract that from the .125" and I am still above the min. of .118". NHRA also figured out to make the minimum a little under than normal tube size to allow for the variance.

SCCA could adopt the tech procedure, maybe someday they will. That would also find the people that build the main hoop to spec and the rest could be .083" or .065". It is a decent weight savings but could also be a threat to the driver during impact.

I would rather see the sonic test being used than having a bunch of little holes drilled throughout the entire cage or main hoop that allows moisture to enter. It is a simple procedure to test and would pay off in the long run.

Thanks Dick for your involvement!

Dick Elliott

Thank you very much. I was a drag racer long before I started going in circles. NHRA never fails to amaze me. They have their @#$% together. I raced Pro-Stock in the old AHRA. Man what a difference between then and now. Much fun back then. Thanks again, DICK.

jimeby

iTrader: (1)

I finally remembered to take my camera to the local race shop. This is a new Port City "offset" late model chassis. The car was up on a lift so I got a pic of the bottom side too. I searched their web site but didn't find any info on the material they use. BTW... check out the direction of the cross bar in the main hoop.

jimeby

iTrader: (1)

The last shot is an older perimeter late model chassis.

AnthonyNYC

iTrader: (3)

Here are the pics of an 8 point rollcage in an FD.

If you would like to see all the pics click this link...

http://www.rx7s.com/tandrracing/team...Cage/index.htm

Thanks

Anthony

cagedruss

Wanted to show some pics of a car I got to fix last year. Finally found the disc with the pics on them. This car ran in the Bremerton area. It is a Vega wagon drag car. My neighbor purchased the pile of crap with out looking at it well. This can be a good lesson for all, when looking at a race car to purchase, take a friend to look at the car before you buy!

I had to build the car from the ground up.

driftseshrx7

hey im looking for a list of whe can find places that make cages for second gens. mostly ones i can order online 6pt or 4 pt ect.. thanks

jantore

Here are some pics of my 10 point roll cage in a 3rd gen. It's built after the FIA spesifications. There is also a x in the roof too. will take some pics of that too for ya if u want.

cagedruss

Can't wait to see the finished product, keep posting new pics!!!

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Is that true? Swingouts are no longer legal? And since I'm a newb, for clarification purposes, swingouts are the sidebars held in by pins that swing outward, allowing you normal access in and out of the car, right?

Dan, I've seen two cars in person who have 100% full interior, all creature comforts, but have 8 point cages. The first was Anderson's white FD from upper NJ. He's got swingouts. He was at Rotorfest last year. Can't remember if you came?? I didn't get a good look at the layout of the rest of the bars though. The other is Ed Taylor's 3-rotor. It has one of the nicest cages I've ever seen. Ever. Really. The rear car runs along the bins plastic, straight up to the rear strut tower. But it's flush against the plastic (a bit of the plastic had to be cut away so the bar actually sits maybe a 1/4 of the way into the plastic). But it's such a tight nice fit it looks incredible. Then, instead of just going into the strut tower, it turns and runs the length of the strut tower. And IIRC, it runs the length of the strut tower TWICE, once in front, and once in the rear. Long story short, the work on it is amazing. And the swingout side bar comes cleanely very far forward to the ground. I don't recall a bar going right under the roof, and into the dash/pillars...only full car I've seen that in was the Supra that was at PFS. Might be Ray's. I gotta go back to PFS in a week or so, so if Ed's car is still there, I'll see if I can snap some pics of it. Ray told me the guys who did the work are in Baltimore, so you might wanna look 'em up. I also hear Mitch Piper does amazing work too (he's in VA)

cagedruss

I just finished a Supra with a Moly cage with swingouts. I had it chassis certified in Div 6 NHRA. Senior tech said nothing about it at all.

Car is capable of high 8's. See attached pics. Bar follows the letter and intent of the rule. Follow through elbow and shoulder and does not hinder access to any of the door switched and latches.

Best bet is to check with your Division tech to get the straight answer!

fdracer

i don't understand people's fondness for swingouts. once you get used to it, it's actually still very easy getting in and out with the door brace there. once you get the technique right even tall drivers can slip in and out of the car easily.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

$20 says I'll have a LOT of trouble getting in and out, ESP. w/ racing seats in there. I'm bigger than most FD drivers... That, and to be frank, I'm not exactly looking forward to learning a technique. I'd like to be able to leave the swingout bar in the back or at home etc when I'm takin my car for a cruise, and simply not have to deal w/ even greater sports car gymnastics for getting in and out. Some of us (like Scrub and myself) actually want this on a fully equipped street car, not a track-only car.

cagedruss

I agree totally, but some people like to drive their cars on the street and remove the bar all together for their driving experience. It is helpful for the weight challenge drivers to gain entry and exit of a tight cockpit.

I would prefer not to install them for customers and to keep the cage structurally intact!

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

I didn't mean to insinuate that I'm gravitationally challenged lol. I'm 6 foot 220, not much fat (although been too busy to go to the gym in a while...gettin kinda squidgy LOL). I'm referring to sheer size. I have a very wide build...wide shoulders, wide hip. And a tall trunk...not just tall feet. So it makes navigating my way in and out of the car w/o a removable steering wheel (since it doesn't tilt) quite cumbersome. To say the least, I've barely been able to get most customers' cars at other shops I've been to, if at all.

I was curious about that. If the swing out bar is held in place w/ just a pin on the top and bottom, what are those pins made of? Because I'd think those would automatically be the weak points in the cage, which doesn't sit too well w/ me, being that it's the driver side we're talking about. You sit RIGHT THERE. Those pins ever fail/snap in two? Etc?

fdracer

it's not that the pin is weak, it's just that a true welded cross brace is structurally much stronger than a swingout. the door opening is the weakest part of the chassis so thats where you need the most support. that's why i just prefer a welded door bar, it provides support where you need it most and it ties the cage together nicely to stiffen the chassis. an x-brace is even better, but that's beside the point. you're right though, on a car with alot of street use, swingouts are very convenient. i don't see that 8 sec supra seeing too much street use though.

cagedruss

I checked the NHRA rule book and had the Division Tech over today, Still legal for 8:50 and slower.

Strength of the pin is not a issue for me. What is important in my mind is that a clevis joint is a pivot, not a welded joint. In some instances I could see a clevis or other types of swingout could pivot in during an accident.

Swingouts work, enjoy them.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

I guess what I want to hear from you guys is, would you track/race a car w/ a swingout (assuming you're running over 8.5)? Cuz I wanna know if the swingouts are indeed a compromise in your safety, or do you just prefer a welded door bar for peace of mind, but a swingout is def. enough/satisfactory?

designfreak

So it's been a long time coming since I first started asking you guys for cage advice....but today I finally got the call that it was done and I maneaged to get some pictures of it. Let me know what you guys think

thanks again for all your help in the past!

Lukus

Hey guys. Here are a few pics of a mates cage that he just got done at City Performance Centre (formerly Rotary Power Australia). Full tig welded, unsure of exact material though. Complies with CAMS (Confederation of Australian Motorsport) regs, so can be used in an Australian racing series. Just wondering what you think of it, and what you think could be improved? Both for safety and rigidity.

Lukus

And here are a few more. I've only put up the pic's before it was painted so you can see the quality of the welds, etc.

Looks pretty good i think! My only improvements would be getting the bars closer to the roof and pillars, attaching them to the pillars more often, another intrusion bar that runs horizontal between the a and b pillars. I don't think anymore diagonals are needed in the rear section. Would probably add a little more strength and alot more weight. Visibility with this cage is good. It's the same as the GT3's, etc that i work on at work. Good cage

cagedruss

Looks good Mate, I would like a little more door bar protection, but all in all it looks good. Builder followed sound principles of keeping all the tube intersected for good compression. Keep up posted after paint and interior.

Russ