Speed Raycer

It's time to get excited. VERY excited....

If you're an SCCA member, you'd better get writing to the CRB & BOD. They're getting ready to vote on a proposal that will "strongly suggest" a H&N restraint(Good). The problem is, the only HnR's that will be allowed (even though only suggested) will be ones that pass SFI test 38.1(BAD), which the Isaac does not because of the single point of release and the fact that it mounts to the restraints. Under the proposed rule, you can race WITHOUT an HNR, but if you choose to run with one on, it has to be an SFI approved one (which is bogus in itself).

Do you know that the SFI uses the manufacturers that it's "approving" to come up with the spec's for their own approval???? Guess which HNR the SFI spec was written around???

If the SCCA past predicts the SCCA future, ultimately, you will be ruled into buying a SFI approved unit or you won't be allowed to race, unless the members speak up NOW!


If the rule goes through, and you've made the well educated decision to purchase an Isaac, you'll be SOL and have a 1K paper weight.

There's an entire thread on this discussion over at www.improvedtouring.com (about 12 pages full)

Hurry up and fire off those letters if you wan't your safety to be your choice. crb@scca.org or bod@scca.org. Please include your membership #'s

555ideways

Just got my HANS and Recaro head restraint seat. Gave it a try at NHIS and Mt Tremblant in Canada. Can't be happier.

-Paddy

Quicker10u

HANS all the way....There is a reason that F1 mandated it, not on cost, or politics, but on effectiveness...Sure, there are trade-offs for everything, but the entire package, simplicity, and value of the HANS is hard to beat...$865 is just a bit more than the cost of a good helmet these days...How much did you spend on your suspension/porting/??

F1 has looked at every option...If they can save a half of an ounce, they would make a change...

Race Safe...

Carl Byck

YOU really need to look at the COMPLETE system, HANS is not goint to save your neck w/out the proper seat, almost no SCCA/NASA/PCA/ BMWCC cars have these seats with side protection unlike Pro Series), that must be addressed, or your spending 865.00 on a device that will only work in a frontal impact with little or no offset, let alone side impact. READ, LEARN..... A 5/16 lip is not going to fix the problem.

Speed Raycer

Interesting reading for those of us that like charts:
http://www.isaacdirect.com/html/Othe...estGraphs.html

Quicker10u

Correct..A half-assed seat will not work well with ANY head or neck restraint...If you are concerned enough about your safety, you will find a way to afford the correct, safest seat for your application to go along with the head and neck restraint of your choice. Mine happens to be th HANS for obvious reasons.

It is a whole safety system...It will not work with one piece or the other...

jolly

The latest SAE article that finally has been published (Dec '06) on head/neck restraints does not put HANS at the top. Unfortunately, it is copyrighted material and to read it you have to buy the article from SAE.

Go to the SAE website, and do a search for ISAAC or HANS. I have read all three SAE published research articles on the neck restraints, and the latest is the most convincing. $12/paper- Well worth the cost in researching your neck restraint.

Without spewing opinion, and whether NASCAR or F1 approves the device, these are actual test data measuring and comparing these devices, and the best objective data currently available to select your device.

ISAAC device is by far the best of the devices in these tests. And these are the same graphs that are on the Isaac website. These are actual test data, and not bar graphs that they made up for advertising and marketing, as was suggested in some other posts. So if you don't want to buy the papers, just go to the Isaac website.

Good luck in your choice of restraint.

Quicker10u

And with that data, why have all the major sanctioning bodies not even allowed the Isaac device?...Makes you wonder, doesn't it?...There are millions of dollars floating around the professional drivers longevity and health..Sanctioning bodies, Sponsors, team owners all have a vested intrest..Don't you think they would adopt the better mousetrap?

Just my .02

Eagle7

That's pretty funny. If you research who's in bed with whom, I'm pretty sure you'd do a 180 on that perspective. The sanctioning bodies just want a standard to hide behind - doesn't matter if it's any good. The teams do what the sanctioning bodies say. Half the drivers wouldn't wear any HNR if they could get away with it. The only standards body that's written a spec had Mr. HANS write it for them, and he did a very good job of specifying his (and only his) design, not performance requirements. Some of the leading safety officers in significant sanctioning bodies are distributors of the HANS. Everywhere you look there is an agenda, and the safety of the driver isn't it.

jolly

Yes, good question, where is their data? Why won't (NASCAR or F1) they share with us, the taxpaying general public whose lives are worth every bit as much as those Pro drivers, what criteria they are basing their decisions on.

Have they conducted independant crash testing that yields usable data that shaped their decision. Why are they so hush hush on items of safety. WHY WON"T THEY TELL YOU?

Do YOU know why they specifically did or did not sanction these devices? Are you assuming when you are traveling down the straight at 135mph that NASCAR has done your homework for you and is interested in your safety. Show me some data that contradicts existing numbers.

Does HANS or Hutchens refer to ANY study that gives impact data on their device. Call up HANS and ask them for comparitive papers where the HANS device was studied, and it beat the pants off the others. Ask them for proof before you buy the product. I will bet you your .02 that they cite SAE. If they can't give you any, then walk away fast.

To this day, you will see STP oil treatment, Skoal and Viagra on those NASCAR cars. "Millions of dollars" Yep.

Hmm.... Yeah, makes me wonder.

Heres' my XXX hard version of the truth: NASCAR, sponsors, team owners, don't give a rats *** about you or the drivers. They would use just a seatbelt, or drive naked if they 1- could get away with it and 2-make the cars go faster and 3-sell more product. Teams would sacrifice virgins to win a race. A death every once and a while' not so bad. Makes everyone more aware of the sport, the danger and excitement -- and sells more tickets and sponsorships.

Quicker10u

WOW..Looks like I struck a nerve...

Misinformation is plentiful in this thread and on this topic that is pretty dangerous...I have seen data from SAE, Delphi, TRL (england) and many other sources..HANS is actually pretty open with information..But to each his own..Expressing my opinion in this forum is as productive as slamming my dick in a door..Everyone in here has an agenda, and it seems a cynical chip on their shoulder...There will always be someone to hate the industry leader..It's human nature..

Since HANS was introduced, how many head and neck injury related deaths have occured in all of the major series (non blunt force trauma related)? None..In the years leading up to the mandate...I can think of 5 off-hand...

Are there other alternatives to HANS..Yes...Have I seen data that shows that the total package (safety, convenience, cost, track record) is better than HANS...(In My opinion, which is worth as much as this post cost me) NO...And comparing the head and neck restraints situation to Sponsorships like Skoal and Viagra is just plain ignorant and irrelevent.

The most important thing is that you see the necessity for these devices and chose one of them...

I don't want to hear of any fellow 7 owners getting hurt..That is my agenda..

I have said my peace on this..

jolly

The most frustrating aspect of internet web forums is that everyone has an opinion. Unfortunately opinions are just that.

I'm just letting you know there there is data to actually look at. You can make your own decisions after reading it.

Please share the data from Delphi, and other countries. I'd like to take a look at it.

Are the statistics for death and injury before and after the HANS device the same or less? Are the numbers necessarily causal? Is it possible even to draw a correlation?

DamonB

Now you're purely being argumentative and are not offering anything constructive.

gsbaker

I believe the point Jolly is making is that, when one examines crash data, either in the lab or on the track, there is zero evidence that the HANS device is the best product out there. Quite the contrary; it does some things very well in a professional setting, but doesn't even show up in performance measures more appropriate to amateur road racing.

The better question is, how many HANS customers die of head/neck injuries? Hint: not zero. (20-30 drivers die every year, half from head and neck injuries.)

Read the SAE paper.

gsbaker

That's 20-30 total, not HANS customers.

DamonB

I don't doubt there are other mousetraps that work but you guys are going overboard. I'm sure people who wear HANS devices still die in accidents just as users of other HNR devices still die in accidents. People who don't wear seatbelts often survive accidents unharmed. Does that mean seatbelts are a farce?

Let's talk statistics. Lets compare HANS users to users of all other HNR devices. Statistically everything but HANS is irrelevant because there are so few of the others out there compared to HANS. Does that mean the others don't work? Not at all; it only means there are fewer of them.

gsbaker

It's not a matter of there being other mousetraps, it's a matter of there being better mousetraps. That's what jolly is referring to. The fact that an ISAAC system outperforms a HANS device is now well documented. It's an old story.

You make a good point about the statistics, but this pattern repeats every time there is an innovation, i.e. there is always less of the new stuff than the old stuff. When the light bulb was invented the world was full of kerosene lamps, and their owners all thought they were great--until someone flipped a switch.

Quicker10u

We will see about that..

The big boys are examining all the options, agendas aside...They will use the best mousetrap. There is no "HANS Mafia" making them use it. It is common sense.

DamonB

I'm not anti-ISAAC at all but like everything we have to be careful and know how to seperate real and meaningful data from marketing. A HNR's goal is to keep stress levels to the neck below the threshold which could result in severe injury. Any further reduction below that threshold is not a real gain. Can you design another device which holds forces to an even lower threshold? Sure. But if you've already established a force number that is "safe" going lower than that isn't a real gain, it's marketing.

The SAE numbers on ISAAC's site clearly prove several other restraints also do the job in preventing injury, but ISAAC uses them for their own purposes: Marketing ISAAC products. Look at the SAE chart on ISAAC's site:



The baseline number is with no restraint in place. The red line represents the threshold of "bad stuff happens". HANS produces numbers 72% lower than the baseline and the best scoring ISAAC product a number that is 74% lower. Clearly there is no domination of the ISAAC product compared to HANS in that test.

gsbaker

That's only one measure. For that same test, here's the side torque that occurs in a lateral impact:



And here's that same measure on the SFI test at Delphi:



HANS doesn't even show up. The scary number is shear, which more than doubles with the HANS:



HANS is better in some measures, but in summary loads there is no contest:

Quicker10u

Then the simple question..If it is so much better, why aren't ANY pros using it?

Torque doesn't cause basilar skull fractures, tension does...That's what's killing and crippling drivers..If you were an independant source, then I would take the statistics you posted into account.

The proof is in the pudding...Where are the Isaac devices in F1?...Forget about nascar (they are usually last on the tech bandwagon)..Gregg...Why nobody in WRC?...I am just trying to understand why?...Your device has been out since 2000 or so?...It's not like they don't know about it...

Perhaps I will look back at this thread in 5 years with a different perspective, but there are reasons why ALL the professionals don't even have the option to use your device..

However, as I think that there are only a few people even looking at this thread, it is not worth it to go round and round with you regarding this..

I respect your desire to protect drivers. I respect your research and development, but don't bash the competition. That is the number one way to appear petty and take yourself out of the game in my eyes.

Good luck to you in the future.

DamonB

Quicker10u mentioned it already:

Agreed. Marketing like I said earlier. I can organize a taste test to find which HNR has the nicest flavor but that has no bearing on how well it keeps your skull attached to your neck.

gsbaker

Sorry gentlemen, but BSF is generally defined as any fracture occurring at the base of the skull, frequently involving the foramen magnum and the occipital condyles. Once these structures are destroyed--from any type of load---the forces must be taken by the soft tissue, such as the brain stem and the carotid arteries.

How the combinations of various head/neck loads contribute to BSF is discussed in more detail in the SAE paper referenced above.

gsbaker

You have answered your own fair question, i.e. most sanctioning bodies had mandated a HANS (or other product) by the time we came to market (2003), so many pro drivers and teams who prefer an ISAAC system are presently not allowed to use it simply because people consider the issue closed. That will probably last until someone get hurts and sues.

As an engineer involved in medical implants and aerospace, I see this all the time. The resistance to change can present a greater challenge than designing an improved product.

Speed Raycer

I was wondering how long it would take you to get here Gregg