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I just saw a map for a single turbo FD from Synaptic 3 Performance.
Garrett TO4z
Tial bov
Synapse wastegate
blitz fmic
Koyo rad
850/1600 inj
93 octane... 10 psi boost
supra fuel pump
kd parts fuel rails, braided fuel lines, aeromotive fuel psi regulatot
Power-FC
no airpump, egr(full gotham racing block off plate kit)
Plx wideband
Hks boost controller
Hks twin power
NGK 10.5 plugs
The owners starter map which was from a GT35R engine had the injectors setup correctly.
The finished map that Synaptic 3 Performance made had the injectors set up as stock 550/850, with extreamely retarded timing and very low split under boost.
The owner was asking the PFC yahoo group about it.
A total piece of crap tuning by them.
__________________
Have owned my FD since June 1992.
I believe tuners can get away with it because most people who have their car "tuned" are not able to check over the work because they do not understand what is going on.
__________________
You need the discipline not just to come up with ideas, but also to ensure that they really do give something positive in performance terms, rather than just doing it to be different
- Adrian Newey
Last edited by dradon03; 09-21-11 at 08:42 PM.
Reason: Incorrect
I believe tuners can get away with it because most people who have their car "tuned" are not able to check over the work because they do not understand what is going on.
John
+1 correct. Datalogit + tuning group have been the best mods ever and i advise everyone else to get one and learn
That is a pretty terrible map, looks like they reloaded the default and then just messed that up. Didn't even bother to turn off the sequential twins. I am suprised the car ran with the fuel injectors set up that way.
I believe tuners can get away with it because most people who have their car "tuned" are not able to check over the work because they do not understand what is going on.
It's frustrating, isn't it? But that's how it goes in a lot of service industries. The same can be said about financial advisors for example; I happen to have experience in both industries (performance tuning and the financial industry). The difference is, for all the bad stuff in the financial industry at least you have disclosure documents and regulatory oversight.
we went to have the race car tuned, at a new shop, we came up with a list of "issues/problems", and then we went to the next step and actually had a strategy to tune it.
so we ran the list of stuff by the tuner, and he came up with the exact same tuning strategy we did, which was nice.
we did have a better strategy than "i want to run 22psi but have it be conservative" ours was more like "last time out tuner advanced the timing 5 degrees, and it didn't make any more power, but he left it, and the engine came apart, so we need to fix that"
so we told the new guy that, and he suggested we try stock first, and then +3, and see what it likes
the dyno session was funny too, the stock map made more power than our previous tuned map!
this isn't on an FD either, this is a honda.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by ioTus
I've learned from all this that even though the parts technically bolt together doesn't mean they'll work.
problem is timing and reliable ways of measuring knock in rotaries. but retarding timing yet reducing split is ignorant.
i've run into plenty of tuners for rotaries who use the basic functionality of the stock knock sensor which is far from ideal and knowledge of general timing in these engines to create a basic timing map. but what i would prefer seeing is what knock sensing devices some have used and had good success with. tuning timing based on torque curve can be quite time consuming to do it right while keeping the motor together.
i had thought about chassis ears but not sure whether they are sensitive enough. i just hate relying on an input from a 20 year old sensor and haven't seen much in regards to quick clip on external knock sensors.
any monkey can tune AFRs.
__________________
currently booked for 8+ weeks rotaryevolution.net
engine overhauls all shapes and sizes, stock to extreme shipped globally
Goopy Performance west coast distributor- $330 13B/12A apex seal sets shipped within US
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formerly Karack
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 09-22-11 at 12:15 PM.
That is a pretty terrible map, looks like they reloaded the default and then just messed that up. Didn't even bother to turn off the sequential twins. I am suprised the car ran with the fuel injectors set up that way.
Whats even more crazy is that it runs and drives ok. Made 315hp @ the rear tires at barely 10 psi.... i know because it is my map.
The way this setup seems to try to compensate for the retarted timing and low split is a LOT of fuel under boost. my PLX wideband shows "Rich" at WOT. That means an A/F r of better than 10.0!...I haven't really driven the car in 3+years and now i still cant drive it to full potential because of a dangerous map.
The bad part about it is that i cannot even begin to fine tune these settings because the structure of the whole map is wrong.
we went to have the race car tuned, at a new shop, we came up with a list of "issues/problems", and then we went to the next step and actually had a strategy to tune it.
so we ran the list of stuff by the tuner, and he came up with the exact same tuning strategy we did, which was nice.
we did have a better strategy than "i want to run 22psi but have it be conservative" ours was more like "last time out tuner advanced the timing 5 degrees, and it didn't make any more power, but he left it, and the engine came apart, so we need to fix that"
so we told the new guy that, and he suggested we try stock first, and then +3, and see what it likes
the dyno session was funny too, the stock map made more power than our previous tuned map!
this isn't on an FD either, this is a honda.
The issue is not " what it likes" with a rotary...but "what is safe"!
there is a reason Mazda has more timing split under boost...longevity
__________________ Every man shall be held accountable for every one of his actions. The question is not 'if,' but 'when.' 1995 BB PEP (35k miles), 1993 BB R1 (12k miles), 1993 VR R1 (124k miles), 1993 VR R1 (RIP), 1990 triple black vert (167k miles)
Back from DGRR---2013B Madness
So did the owner contact the company and find anything out, such as whether the default map got saved accidentally or switched? Any adult conversation happening here or just shoot first ask questions later?
It sounds like gravytrain isn't following a reasonable course of action here.
1 - pay for service
2 - discover a concern or have a question?
***3 *** contact service provider with concern!
4 Discuss like adults
5 Issue corrected to everyone's satisfaction.
6 take comfort in behaving like a grownup
7 Have *** kicking car
So did the owner contact the company and find anything out, such as whether the default map got saved accidentally or switched? Any adult conversation happening here or just shoot first ask questions later?
It sounds like gravytrain isn't following a reasonable course of action here.
1 - pay for service
2 - discover a concern or have a question?
***3 *** contact service provider with concern!
4 Discuss like adults
5 Issue corrected to everyone's satisfaction.
6 take comfort in behaving like a grownup
7 Have *** kicking car
nobody mentioned it here but this thread was prompted by a discussion on the tuning group message board a little while back. I don't want to put words in the owner's mouth, but my impression is that the owner did talk to the shop initially and questioned the timing maps. Their response was in essence "there's more than one approach, and this is is how we choose to do things and this is what the motor likes." I don't think he chose to pursue it further.
there is only an agreement right now, no solution...my car still sits in the garage. when the re-tune happens and the problem IS solved, I had ever intention of posting.
So Friday the 28th I brought my car back down to Synaptic 3 Performance...and I am definitely glad i did. The car runs great! rock solid idle, and it pulls awesome all the way through the rpm range. I really cant thank them enough for making this right with me, other than to let all of you know that the problem has been resolved.
__________________ Every man shall be held accountable for every one of his actions. The question is not 'if,' but 'when.' 1995 BB PEP (35k miles), 1993 BB R1 (12k miles), 1993 VR R1 (124k miles), 1993 VR R1 (RIP), 1990 triple black vert (167k miles)
Back from DGRR---2013B Madness
I do not know of any shop that when finding out of an issue would go to these lenths to make it right. Dana (owner) fed us lunch, had the car re- tuned at no charge and even refunded me most of the cost of the initial tune! Alex (Tuner) spent a lot of time during the dyno runs and afterwords during the road test explaining what he was doing, and discussing with me what I wanted out of the car. He took care of idle through warm up and spent a good bit of time on cruise/ and tip in to get it right. I'm VERY happy with my tune and would recommend these guys to anyone with a RX-7 (they work on and tune just about everything) that needs a tune or a shop they can trust to take care of custom and fab work like it was there own car.
Synaptic 3 Performance
16 Deer Run Rd.
Candia, NH 03034
front, rear, or all-wheel drive tuning (they tune with the same fc edit and datalogit software all of us with a Power Fc use)
custom and fabrication work- roll cages exhaust ect.
. 
Linear Mode
