stock vs LS vs 2jz weight
05-04-14, 10:02 AM
#1
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stock vs LS vs 2jz weight
This should be the definitive answer to how much swapping these cars throws off the weight/balance of the car. All 3 were weighed on the same precision scales with roughly half a tank of gas.
First off is a stock '93 R1. Well, stock on the inside at least - all the way down to the air pump.
Next up is a '94 LS powered touring. No power steering and no ABS, but otherwise a full interior including A/C. Rear mounted battery.
Last we have a '93 2jz powered touring. No A/C, but it does have full interior and a half cage in it. Rear mounted battery also.
All 3 cars are on coilover suspension, so corner balancing to get a perfect 50/50 isnt out of the question. The LS powered RX7 is making around 380whp. The 2jz is well over 700whp.
And for anyone curious here's all 3 with their drivers in them.
stock R1 -
LS powered -
2jz powered -
Hopefully this clears up the whole 'you swap out the 13b and ruin the 50/50 balance these cars have' debate. Bring on the flames.
First off is a stock '93 R1. Well, stock on the inside at least - all the way down to the air pump.
Next up is a '94 LS powered touring. No power steering and no ABS, but otherwise a full interior including A/C. Rear mounted battery.
Last we have a '93 2jz powered touring. No A/C, but it does have full interior and a half cage in it. Rear mounted battery also.
All 3 cars are on coilover suspension, so corner balancing to get a perfect 50/50 isnt out of the question. The LS powered RX7 is making around 380whp. The 2jz is well over 700whp.
And for anyone curious here's all 3 with their drivers in them.
stock R1 -
LS powered -
2jz powered -
Hopefully this clears up the whole 'you swap out the 13b and ruin the 50/50 balance these cars have' debate. Bring on the flames.
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Mjedi (10-24-20)
05-04-14, 10:21 AM
#4
I've done an LS swap and kept both AC and power steering. Couldn't tell the difference in handling but the car was much easier to drive on the street because of the torque curve. You will save weight by ditching the twins and control system, then gain some back with a bigger turbo, intercooler, etc. I never understood why people are so worried about saving 20 lbs. I can see if you are racing professionally where every bit counts. I personally like to have creature comforts when I go for a cruise or take a girl out. I'm a fan of all 3 engines but to each his own.
Last edited by IRPerformance; 05-04-14 at 10:24 AM.
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RW Atelier (11-16-21),
Venom13132 (09-21-18)
05-04-14, 03:00 PM
#5
It is kind of important where the weight is in the car for handling.
You are kidding yourself if you think there won't be any handling difference between a 16" long 425lb stock 13BREW and a 30" long 594lb 2JZ.
You are telling me you wouldn't feel a difference if someone put 175lb cement block on the intercooler support on a stock RX-7. OK great for you, but I assure you other drivers will notice.
I am not saying either of these two bad *** swaps are not without their merit. Just that you need to enjoy them for what they are and stop trying to justify how it doesn't affect the handling.
I am dreaming of a 16.5" long 425lb VW W8 in my RX-8. OMG the flat crank V-8 music.
You are kidding yourself if you think there won't be any handling difference between a 16" long 425lb stock 13BREW and a 30" long 594lb 2JZ.
You are telling me you wouldn't feel a difference if someone put 175lb cement block on the intercooler support on a stock RX-7. OK great for you, but I assure you other drivers will notice.
I am not saying either of these two bad *** swaps are not without their merit. Just that you need to enjoy them for what they are and stop trying to justify how it doesn't affect the handling.
I am dreaming of a 16.5" long 425lb VW W8 in my RX-8. OMG the flat crank V-8 music.
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RW Atelier (11-16-21)
05-04-14, 07:20 PM
#6
Also, remember the weight of the other swaps would also be higher placed than the stock rotary and raise the centre of gravity and increase the weight transfer at the front...
05-04-14, 09:34 PM
#7
yeah, even though they could easily be adjusted to balance and the weight gain is not significant, we all agree that where the weight is placed is the biggest factor in all this. where the motor sits how high or low or forward or backwards it will still be different and drive different. how different we don't know. mine is the 2jz powered one
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05-14-14, 10:10 AM
#12
It is kind of important where the weight is in the car for handling.
You are kidding yourself if you think there won't be any handling difference between a 16" long 425lb stock 13BREW and a 30" long 594lb 2JZ.
You are telling me you wouldn't feel a difference if someone put 175lb cement block on the intercooler support on a stock RX-7. OK great for you, but I assure you other drivers will notice.
I am not saying either of these two bad *** swaps are not without their merit. Just that you need to enjoy them for what they are and stop trying to justify how it doesn't affect the handling.
I am dreaming of a 16.5" long 425lb VW W8 in my RX-8. OMG the flat crank V-8 music.
You are kidding yourself if you think there won't be any handling difference between a 16" long 425lb stock 13BREW and a 30" long 594lb 2JZ.
You are telling me you wouldn't feel a difference if someone put 175lb cement block on the intercooler support on a stock RX-7. OK great for you, but I assure you other drivers will notice.
I am not saying either of these two bad *** swaps are not without their merit. Just that you need to enjoy them for what they are and stop trying to justify how it doesn't affect the handling.
I am dreaming of a 16.5" long 425lb VW W8 in my RX-8. OMG the flat crank V-8 music.
05-14-14, 12:24 PM
#13
Yes, the LSx swap will have much less affect than the 2JZ swap on chassis dynamics.
The LSx is around 28" to the crank pulley, and only weighs 70lbs more than the fully dressed 13B-REW.
As you say, once you add the beefy transmission and rear end you have added even more weight, though in the case of the transmission it is in the best possible area.
LSx swap makes a lot of sense. We are in the land of the V8 where it is cheap, plentiful parts and everyone is familiar with it.
The 2JZ swap is bad *** for its JDMness and the fact you are basically making a better Supra. Maybe the 2JZ swap is even bad *** because it makes no sense.
It will be really hard to defend its affects on chassis dynamics though.
Compared to a 2JZ a '60s small block Chevy V8 weighs less, is shorter and THE engine Americans know how to make power cheaply with.
The LSx is around 28" to the crank pulley, and only weighs 70lbs more than the fully dressed 13B-REW.
As you say, once you add the beefy transmission and rear end you have added even more weight, though in the case of the transmission it is in the best possible area.
LSx swap makes a lot of sense. We are in the land of the V8 where it is cheap, plentiful parts and everyone is familiar with it.
The 2JZ swap is bad *** for its JDMness and the fact you are basically making a better Supra. Maybe the 2JZ swap is even bad *** because it makes no sense.
It will be really hard to defend its affects on chassis dynamics though.
Compared to a 2JZ a '60s small block Chevy V8 weighs less, is shorter and THE engine Americans know how to make power cheaply with.
05-14-14, 02:02 PM
#14
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we went spec E30 racing, and it really taught us how important weight distribution really is.
at the time the minimum weight for the class was 2750lbs, with driver. the problem was that a stock E30 is 2700lbs, so once you remove all the stuff you need to remove, and add a light driver, we were at 2550lbs.
the E30 like the toyota engine is a big iron straight 6, with the trans its in the 900lbs range, so a stock E30 has something around a 60/40 weight distribution.
at 2550lbs, the car was running 1:58's at sears point. we added more than 200lbs of ballast in the trunk* to bring it up to minimum weight.
you'd expect adding 200lbs to a ~150hp car would slow it down, but we actually dropped a couple of tenths off the lap times.
imagine what would happen if instead of adding 200lbs in the trunk we removed the boat anchor BMW calls an engine and replaced it with something that was lighter?
in short the big iron straight 6 is cool, sounds great, but its not great if you need to turn....
*the stupid part is that we were only legally allowed to add 100lbs of ballast, which make us wonder how they came up with a 2750 minimum weight, when the car is 2400!
at the time the minimum weight for the class was 2750lbs, with driver. the problem was that a stock E30 is 2700lbs, so once you remove all the stuff you need to remove, and add a light driver, we were at 2550lbs.
the E30 like the toyota engine is a big iron straight 6, with the trans its in the 900lbs range, so a stock E30 has something around a 60/40 weight distribution.
at 2550lbs, the car was running 1:58's at sears point. we added more than 200lbs of ballast in the trunk* to bring it up to minimum weight.
you'd expect adding 200lbs to a ~150hp car would slow it down, but we actually dropped a couple of tenths off the lap times.
imagine what would happen if instead of adding 200lbs in the trunk we removed the boat anchor BMW calls an engine and replaced it with something that was lighter?
in short the big iron straight 6 is cool, sounds great, but its not great if you need to turn....
*the stupid part is that we were only legally allowed to add 100lbs of ballast, which make us wonder how they came up with a 2750 minimum weight, when the car is 2400!
05-14-14, 02:34 PM
#15
I just want to repeat that I think the 2JZ swap is bad *** and I love it for what it is.
My friend swapped a 2JZ into his MkIII Supra turbo and it makes that heavy car MOVE and it really sounds amazing with open wastegate and turbo sounds.
Plus, it has been WAAAAAAY more reliable than all his 7Ms were.
My friend swapped a 2JZ into his MkIII Supra turbo and it makes that heavy car MOVE and it really sounds amazing with open wastegate and turbo sounds.
Plus, it has been WAAAAAAY more reliable than all his 7Ms were.
05-18-14, 11:50 AM
#16
Yes, the LSx swap will have much less affect than the 2JZ swap on chassis dynamics.
The LSx is around 28" to the crank pulley, and only weighs 70lbs more than the fully dressed 13B-REW.
As you say, once you add the beefy transmission and rear end you have added even more weight, though in the case of the transmission it is in the best possible area.
LSx swap makes a lot of sense. We are in the land of the V8 where it is cheap, plentiful parts and everyone is familiar with it.
The 2JZ swap is bad *** for its JDMness and the fact you are basically making a better Supra. Maybe the 2JZ swap is even bad *** because it makes no sense.
It will be really hard to defend its affects on chassis dynamics though.
Compared to a 2JZ a '60s small block Chevy V8 weighs less, is shorter and THE engine Americans know how to make power cheaply with.
The LSx is around 28" to the crank pulley, and only weighs 70lbs more than the fully dressed 13B-REW.
As you say, once you add the beefy transmission and rear end you have added even more weight, though in the case of the transmission it is in the best possible area.
LSx swap makes a lot of sense. We are in the land of the V8 where it is cheap, plentiful parts and everyone is familiar with it.
The 2JZ swap is bad *** for its JDMness and the fact you are basically making a better Supra. Maybe the 2JZ swap is even bad *** because it makes no sense.
It will be really hard to defend its affects on chassis dynamics though.
Compared to a 2JZ a '60s small block Chevy V8 weighs less, is shorter and THE engine Americans know how to make power cheaply with.
I like the v8 swap for its simplicity. I have far less to worry about on the track, the car runs cooler, and maintenance is a bit cheaper. I can run the car harder on the track for longer than I ever could with the rotary.
05-18-14, 10:31 PM
#17
Interestingly enough the rear end swap to a Ford 8.8 is about weight neutral. In my FC going to the 8.8 with hybrid half shafts was within a pound of the turbo 2 diff and half shafts.
The FC has a super heavy long pinion rear end- its basically how Mazda got 50/50 weight distribution on the FC.
The graphics/illustration clearly shows this in the Yamaguchi book with all the weight over the front and rear tires.
The FD short pinion rear with its smaller dimensions and thin casting is quite a bit lighter (and weaker).
I am betting the 2ZJ FD in this thread has an upgraded rear and that is why both the rear and front gained weight and it stayed 50/50 (though it could be a big sub box I guess).
Having the weight on the ends of the car makes it handle like a Subaru, understeer on turn in, oversteer on exit and slow to rotate. The upside is things happen slower so its good for learning to drift.
The FC has a super heavy long pinion rear end- its basically how Mazda got 50/50 weight distribution on the FC.
The graphics/illustration clearly shows this in the Yamaguchi book with all the weight over the front and rear tires.
The FD short pinion rear with its smaller dimensions and thin casting is quite a bit lighter (and weaker).
I am betting the 2ZJ FD in this thread has an upgraded rear and that is why both the rear and front gained weight and it stayed 50/50 (though it could be a big sub box I guess).
Having the weight on the ends of the car makes it handle like a Subaru, understeer on turn in, oversteer on exit and slow to rotate. The upside is things happen slower so its good for learning to drift.
05-26-14, 10:49 AM
#21
Well if u really think about it the LS1 sits at 300 hp NA and that's just the beginning not even with a turbo throw some bolt on on and well u will start saying whats a JZ and still pumping cheap gas and reliable then if that's not enough u can go turbo then ur making crazy power y u wouldent go LS1 in the U.S. is crazy
05-27-14, 11:43 PM
#22
also my rear end is still stock for now.... until it breaks. i was looking at the ford 8.8 rear but mike (the white LSx fd in this comparison thread) said just to get a turbo II rear. oh and no subs either... i don't even have a radio in it unfortunately
the car is a blast to drive on the street with e85. i would have to dial the boost back on the track when i do go... or get better and wider tires. 740whp just blows the tires off
btw the scale pic above of my fd (2jz) without me in it is the wrong pic. thats scale pic is the stock r1 with the driver
this is the correct weight of the car without the driver for the 2jz fd (my fd)
06-13-14, 01:53 PM
#24
Just to keep the information flowing my LS3 FD was corner balanced and I have A/C, full interior, stock leather seats, sunroof, roll bar and heavy Work Meister S1r wheels in 18x9.5 and
18x11 on the car.
It still was 50.7% front and 49.3% rear.
Half tank of gas and 245lb driver.
3219lb
2974lb without driver and still half tank of fuel.
Balance was done with driver.
Here is the sheet
18x11 on the car.
It still was 50.7% front and 49.3% rear.
Half tank of gas and 245lb driver.
3219lb
2974lb without driver and still half tank of fuel.
Balance was done with driver.
Here is the sheet
