bumpstart

retards the timing under boost ..





noticeably the vac pots on the dizzy have grub screws on the end
.. and work in both directions , under vacuum- advancing each internal ball race holding each electronic pickup
and retarding them under boost
( i expect inside it is a double acting diaphragm and double spring setup )

all independent of the mechanical movement of the centre button post

12a turbo engine was avail on
1982–1987 Mazda Cosmo ( 2dr HB 929 ).. limited markets JDM and aus
1982–1985 Mazda Luce ( 4 dr HB 929 ) .. limited markets JDM and aus
1984–1985 Mazda RX-7 JDM only

i was always curious to see if the US GSL-SE had a similar dizzy,, as they pull 2 psi under inlet resonance effect
( though i dont recall them on the similar 13b RESI engine in the HB cosmo series )
in australia many of these vehicles ( in WA in particular ) where avail in early 90's as second hand grey imports
though most of the dizzies have come into the country on front cuts and imported s/h engines for old school conversions

they where popular for early 13bt EFI retrofits as the old screwdriver d4s and d5 microtechs where fuel only devices

many people running up to 15 psi ( with petrol ) on them
though i expect the movement is limited and there isnt much retard above 10 psi . and the base timing would have been slightly compromised to cope
at any rate.. will work just bang on for us with our higher octane and WI past 15 psi
( though we will mod mech timing to give us a lot more timing at idle suit the new fuel )

gerald m

sorry missed the pics .. It cleaned up very nice and yes retards not advance my bad.

gerald m

water stuff is on order they said they would ship asap . More than I wanted to spend but it is needed and I won't let this hold me up ..

gerald m

was going to pre set the wastegate for 6 pounds full open ,, is that conservative enough or should it be set lower to start with ??

also was going to drill and tap into the cold side where the mold filling spots are , I marked them with red dots , just thought it would be a good place to feed the water tank with air (( there is a 1/4 inch fitting in the tank so the turbo end might as well be the same size then for the water lines will be 1/4 inch fittings but smaller push in lines . waiting for turbo drain fitting at engine and 90 Deg elbow for pressure end .

I think I will get a short piece of pipe tiged onto the cold side horn to use for bov if needed , i thought the sleeve would do but it's ugly .

bumpstart

yes , set the boost low.

these pneumatic systems tend to overshoot a bit before they find control

more can be added later ( to a point ) with a pill and a tee and a tap valve to the other side of the control diaphragm

gerald m

kinda figured the other plug was for something like that . bought a digital regulator today suppose to be accurate to .25 lbs. @ 100 so it should be close enough to get a good setting at low pressure goes up in increments of .5 lbs. from 0 to 160 lbs . so it should prove to be a handy little reg. I'm interested in the spring rate to see the difference from start to full open with all three different springs and combos of them ,. this is all new to me so I figured If I played with things a bit I know what is going on inside .

I'm going to check one more time but I am sure the dizzy lines up in a different spot than the other one did .. more clearly ,, the spur lines up with the pickup in a different spot with the hold down nut , which is ok because the old one needed to be sliced at the rear so it would turn far enough to get good performance , no idea what the timing was it just needed to be there . this one is more centered with the hold down nut . don't know why unless there is a tad of difference in gearing or something . noticed it first time I stabbed it in .

gerald m

PS I talked to a old friend of mine today about propane and he told me 6 lbs. of propane to 1 gallon i presume he was meaning Canadian gals so American there should be a little over 5.4 pounds of propane to an American gallon . ,, so with what is left in the vessels when I refuel a 20 pound tank full should fuel me twice . and that is $20.00 so for 100 bucks my *** will be soar for a week . my tire will be tore all to hell , my chain stretched out of recognition .\\ talk about fun hey //.

bumpstart

i expect last time you had the other dizzy apart you had the base plate clocked to a slightly different position or you dropped it in one notch out
( they have a habit of rotating back as you drop them in and if you dont have a button to hold you can often get the wrong tooth )
and so you find the timing mark at extreme ends of the base sweep instead of the middle

all is good as long as it times up

you should be able to do it by eye without the engine running
and basically sit the motor at 5 ATDC alingn the dot and the pin and drop it in so pickup aligned for L and sweep in the middle
... then rotate engine to 10 BTDC and move base to suit
( the sweep will now be near one edge )

alternatively you can set the motor to 10 BTDC and drop it with aligned pickup in if you wish this to be the centrepoint of the dizzy sweep
( and this is important if you are fitting the dizzy to some late s4 and s5 and FD engines which can clash with the casting for the engine hook, and more so if we modify the mechanical movement )

.///

economy wise with a mixer and a feedback controller ( which you lack though is only a handful more parts )
mixed condition driving returns an accepted economy of about 1.3L LPG to 1L of petrol

though this is less true at WOT type conditions on a rotary where at 300 HP you strive for 11:1 with petrol and only 13.5:1 with LPG and the sums actually come nearly square
the same happens at idle
... where a mild rotary on LPG will be happy to idle at stoic and even leaner ( lambda =>1.0 )
and the best tuning on petrol will be struggling at anything leaner than 14:1 ( lambda =< 0.95 )

( stoic for LPG is 15.4:1 and for petrol is 14.7:1 )

it becomes very cost effective especially when you compare it to the cost and associated volumes of the other 100+ octane fuels

its one drawback is the lack of boundary cooling that happens with dry fuels
.. though this doesnt rear its head until you start to lose control of exhaust temps past 300 rwhp
we will wish to keep things under 1000 C under WOT

of which this is mostly cured by introducing the water or water methanol mixtures and by keeping the power mixture relatively lean

gerald m

Just came in the mail looks like everything I need is here .. pressure switch , solenoid ,water filter , Nozzle assembly ,good length of line , a number of different fittings 90deg. straight , the nozzle , filter and solenoid also have push in fittings supplied with the kit . by the time I get this hooked up the NGK-B9EVG #5827 plugs should be here . Just by looking at the kit it does seem to be good quality parts .

gerald m

I think everything is where it is going to be , it's kinda tucked in as much as I could . So the pressure switch (( set to activate at 7 pounds boost )) is mounted right at the mixer in a port that I drilled and taped earlier , just above throttle plate . The snorkel came from a 86 GMC Sierra with the 6.5 diesel that just happened to be around . .. and fits the cold side inlet perfect , the nozzle block fits very tight into a hole in the elbow and cannot go all the way through because there is a nice 1/8 inch lip at the bottom of the hole , the snorkel is beefy enough a small hose clamp keeps every thing secure ( can see it in one pic. ), the water solenoid I decided to mount as close as possible to the nozzle block so there would be little or no delay in water flow . the water filter is just under and a little to the rear mounted with each end wrapped with 2 grommets and held gently but firmly in place with 2 clamps .

The hoses going to the water tank are hid as best as possible so if the chain flies it might take out a line but no big deal , The air feed to the water tank will get a one way valve so it can trap some of the boost pressures and help keep the tank ready for action ,, The air side of the misting nozzle will get a flow of air continuously from a separate fitting on the side of the compressor also ready for water flow because the nozzle will not atomize with out air flow , it just shoots a tiny stream The rear fitting on the side of the turbo (( one of the pics )) goes to the nozzle and the one a little closer to the front of bike goes to the water tank

I tapped a fitting jnto the inlet flange of the cold side for the filler tube vent hose to go to , so we see how that works .

You asked me a while back for the low down on filling the fuel vessels .. Now I don't suggest anyone do this because of the danger factors that do exist and I'm not going to get into how I manage to feed liquid to the bike regulator instead of vapor like the barbecue tank delivers when used upright ,but just to get rid of all the BS stories about filling tanks with another remote tank here goes . Always wear eye and face protection and of course some kind of mitts or gloves will be for sure necessary (( but know body is going to try this anyway .. Right ?? Keep in mind that my two vessels have new OPD (( Over Fill Device )) valves installed exactly like the ones everyone has for their barbecue tanks .. now these OPD valves have a vent screw in the side for a ordinary flat blade screw driver . The filling hose I use is just like the one on the bike to connect the two tanks to the reg. but I have the T plugged so it just flows from one hose end to the other .

I have a nice black cover that I fit over the 20 lb. or any size remote barbecue tank . just to keep it nice and warm (( warmer than my vessels if possible )) So I connect the hoses one to the remote barbecue tank and the other end to one of my fuel vessels , turn the barbecue tank upside down preferably higher than the fuel vessel but not necessary if the barbecue tank is warmer . ... OK I open the vent screw that I mentioned earlier with a flat blade screw driver made from bronze . (( machinery dealer gift )) I open the fuel vessel valve slowly and then very slowly the barbecue tank valve that is upside down .. You will be able to hear the liquid propane flowing from the barbecue tank to the vessel and also the vent screw will be venting air quite loud like a air hose leaking lots of air . When the vessel gets to the 80% or so full mark the vent screw must be closed and the valve on the barbecue tank closed most of the way , I open the vent screw slowly until all that comes out is liquid propane ,close the vent screw just snug ,, shut both valves and remove hose ends from both the fuel vessel and the barbecue tank . There will be some high pressure propane trapped in the hose so be prepared for it to vent into the air the barbecue tank should be turned upright before removing the hose from either end ,.. The vessels take at the most 1 minute to fill weather the barbecue tank is full or half full .. I can also empty my fuel vessels if I want just by making the propane tank cold and the fuel vessels warm . hook the hose up the same way as filling but this time it is not necessary to turn the barbecue tank upside down open the valves and the warm vessels will push the fuel into the cold barbecue tank faster than it takes to fill . Hope this is clear enough Bumpstart ..

Now wire in the dizzy and couple wires for tack , couple fittings for turbo , couple wires on water solenoid and we should be ready .

bumpstart

figured you was turning the bottle upside down though not so sure you would need to vent


it might be best to put the pressure switch from a source engine side of throttle plate to avoid it adding water when you close throttle when under boost
( where you are now.. on closed throttle the measured pressure will spike for an instant,, and maybe longer if you lack the BOV , forcing the water to flow )

is it possible to adjust the setpoint lower? since you lack intercooling the water injection has dual purpose and it would be better to see flow as low as 4 psi to keep inlet temps in check

was going to relate how you can make an adjustable pressure switch from the level switch from a washing machine for the ultimate in make do

but thinks you have it covered

bumpstart

disregard on the pressure switch location.. a little spray wont hurt for now .. its not like you need to economize it

hurry up with the vid of it running !!

gerald m

not a big deal there is another plug I tapped in some time ago that is below the plate it is just a matter of moving the fitting . (( the switch is not mounted it just lays there with the push on hose fittings and 1 inch of hose , wanted it that way so it would be easy to remove and change pressure settings there is enough stuff mounted in that area it can't move around )) Honestly my computer is only getting 1 meg of internet and that is to low to upload a video so one of these evenings I will go to my chums place and upload there .

biggest problem right now is there is no room to get the coolant filler off and on ( kinda tight under the blue hose )) but if needed I will fill from the rad although it is a little lower , and then just finish filling with the little pump in the coolant reservoir and bleed the air out the top coolant line where the fitting goes over the alternator .

down the road I expect we will need a BOV to balance things proper but feel it should work satisfactory with out for now . Didn't have any Kreem to coat the inside of the water tank for rust prevention so just mixed up some fiberglass resin and poured that in and rolled it around for half hour till it set up ,, seemed to work , if all else fails I guess that is why the filter is there .

gerald m

Can't seem to find it now but somewhere not long ago you mentioned that my NGK B9EGV spark plugs should be gaped at 0.80 MM which is 31 thou. is that the number we are looking for the plug gap ? If so it seems like a fairly normal gap .. I use to set plugs up at 28-32 ,.. 32 new and 28 used . for the old stuff those plugs by the way were for 2 boxes of 4 plugs each were 5.40 cdn.per plug . which is much cheaper than the dude at the napa store wanted .. even with shipping they were half price .

Soon boss , soon , be patient just need a couple more days to check every thing over .It would be nice to get a fire up like we got last year .. I actually backed the waste gate off as far as it would go with the lightest spring so I'm not expecting it to be too wild on start up , and I think you are bang on when you say the gate will open a tad late drop a couple pounds or so and level out that seemed to be the way it acted with the reg also .

bumpstart

0.60 mm , which by the way is default on the BREG ...
( which i use on my road car , mindful of the need to warm them for a minute idle up )

// the egv will be 0.8 out of the box

the EGV is the better plug,, just more pricey

9 is the better option for start and go racing though 10 will be where you settle when zeroing the last of the easy HP

the 10 will be more reluctant untill given a moment to come to temps

gerald m

Finally got the bike out in the porch this morning , turned on the propane ( just a slight hiss , turned on ignition pushed the prime button on center of regulator back up firm pushed again and could hear a hiss for a couple seconds coming from the reg and it started almost immediately . one small oil leak which just turned out to be loose fitting . The bike runs smooth and very responsive , for now until I pick up my chums timing light and give it a check . The engine never ran long enough to open the thermostat but should be fine , The biggest problem was I bought all new T bolt hose clamps and most of the hoses leaked that I put them on so it was back to the old screw clamps and everything was fine , video will be up in the next day or two . Like I said a couple little problems but no big deal .

One thing I need to check is where the ignition is getting its power after the switch is turned off , the engine just keeps running like the switch is still on , used the tether switch to shut the engine down that part worked good .

bumpstart

excellent.. i am very pleased to hear startup was straight forward.. aside the usual assembly drips ... bet it surprised you at how close things are out of the box

your run on issue may be one of the relays backfeeding or latching but is usually a thermofan runing without a relay or you have the little wires in the alt swapped **** about

gerald m

Yes it started great no firing or rolling on it just started , probably about 4 turns . One blast of oil smoke ( I presume from me oiling it a drop or two through the winter . I never tried to restart after running but like I said it barely got warm .

I will need to check things out for the ignition , ( The hold down on the dist by the way is almost centered when it is running in the video so we should be good .

I think we did good .. No regrets here .. The only thing that I would like to have is some kind of accurate way to measure how much propane I have in my tanks . ( I don't like the color strips that you need to pour water on or what ever , it would be nice to know at a glance ,..

The exhaust is no where as ear splitting as before the turbo with just straight pipes . actually could do without ear plugs in a pinch .

bumpstart

waits till you have heard the wastegate lift at 6000 rpm

gerald m

Yea I suppose once it is straight through it will change ,, changed more hose clamps , leaky buggers .

fired the bike again today tried to do a little timing . checked the advance with hose removed and plugged . I do get a erratic pulse with the light but it seems like maybe 3 deg . or so is what the weights do or possibly the modules are advancing a tad , seems to me I read somewhere that they advance a bit on their own ,but don't know how much truth there is to that . I never went past 4000 much but the timing seems to return a bit to my TDC. mark . Was hoping the snap on light would make things easy to do timing but it flutters and almost makes two separate flashes on the pulley in different places . ( I can see two leading marks two trailing marks and two TDC. marks at the same time . ) and no I haven't been into the medication . It's almost like the trailing (( that are not hooked up )) are firing at the same time , Any thoughts on that

haven't got much oil going through the injectors lines yet ,I will get something hooked up on it to hold the OMP wide open and see if the hoses fill a tad faster.

Think I might have flooded it a tad , turned the propane on primed it and then didn't start it right away while checking a wire . I could smell a bit of propane for a couple minutes , then when I hit the key it rolled over a good bit before it finally caught and ran . also maybe I should have hit the prime button again before starting as the vapor might have evaporated but a minor thing .

My oil pressure is still up there good but has dropped from 90-95 hot to 80 @ 3500 . still 30-35 @ 1000 idle , it will drop down to around 700 and still hit hard but does have a tendency to drop off and stall.

I haven't even looked at the 5-6 ports to see if they actuate , very hard to get that stuff working when just sitting ,I will mark them with a tab of grease before I go for a short run and see if they respond , @ 2 pounds they should be the first thing to work .

The return hose for turbo is hot so I presume oil is making it through to drain .

The reg. get warmed up right away both hoses so there must be good flow there .

I can tell the way the little guy runs that it has much more authority than before .

I hear a rumor that there is a big old orange knuckle head Harley dresser winning a few races , apparently he has threatened to show up at Andersonville North and do some runs , I sure hope so I had one of those old tractors many years ago it would be nice to have a go at one ,

bumpstart

some timing lights will be sensitive to the bell ring from these noisy plugs and may give you a false impression when setting the trailing timing
( which you do not have )
for these you set the trailing with the leading disconnected or use a cheaper "pass through" non inductive timing light and set for the front edge of the smudge

at any rate you should see a pulse for the back side of the pulley
( it is the wastespark letting go )



if you have a snapon light.. it is likely a dialback type and these can be temperamental
.. set the dial for a zero .. or just resort to a non dial back type

your ignition modules are unknown to me.
these inductive trigger type modules usually have a "zero crossover" trigger point computation
that leads to the timing either retarding or advancing slightly with revs depending on the signal polarity

by sounds of things,, yours may retard slightly at revs . at revs losing that 3 degrees you have seen at idle



you can try reversing the signal wires to the other polarity
,, be aware the timing will shift when you do so

and you may find the drift going the other direction with revs
( if the polarity is incorrect for the module it may make for erratic timing and a weak spark down low )

after correcting the timing shift ..choose the polarity that gives you the best , steadiest idle timing and spark

//

i am expecting you will find the engine will LOVE 10 -15 BTDC idle and will like about 25 BTDC max at 4000 rpm
to do this you need to aprox halve the mech slot with the washer method

.. and potentially drop the dizzy in one notch out to find the centre of the base sweep

thus you should have 10- 15 BTDC at idle and the correct 25 up top.. and the vac pots working independently for vac/boost

// ps .. a propane flood will just crank like there is no fuel at all .. it is too hard to spark .. simply pull the wire off the lock off solenoid and crank the engine till it catches ,, and slip back on the wire

bumpstart

PS.. your propane system should not flow when left unattended

.. the mixer uses a pressure drop to "suck" the fuel in and is technically not supplied any over -pressure
( N.G systems work at a positive pressure.. LPG/propane vapour works at a very slight vacuum to the carb/mixer )

after several seconds with no spark the little cp-20 black box will shut your fuel solenoids .. nothing should bypass this


the primer and solenoid associated can form a mixture bypass around this system and allow some fuel left in the converter/ vapourizer through
( after that cp-20 time period ) if it is not wired from the same source as the solenoids
( IE..the + wired from the cp-20 output )

if you are smelling fuel then i suspect a leak
.. or you have your coldstart/ powervalve solenoid wired full time ( instead of wired from the shut off solenoids ) and the pill for it may be too big

opt for about 2.0 - 2.5 mm for the pill as this will lift you over half an AFR point ( LPG AFR ) under initial acceleration


ps// just dont jump off the bike the first time you hear the wastegate lift .. it will be very loud

gerald m

This video is long overdue from about a month back maybe a bit more . It was taken at the Dinsmore Hutterite Colony ..The guy's name that done the work is Will he runs the metal shop . and did all the work on the exhaust of the dragon , the man you hear talking is Will . He also fabricated the fuel vessel holders thr screen in front of the rad. and the cover over the turbo . I won't discuss prices but he did a very nice clean job for me Thanks Will I know you have been waiting patiently to see the video so here it is special for you and my buddy Zack ..Enjoy .

gerald m

Well Bumpstart I guessin this is the one you want to see . I can't believe after all the going on all winter, parts on and off , modifying so many pieces . New parts from all over the world including the little gem you sent me . 22 different shipments of parts since we start the 2014 build , another 3 ice cream pails full of money , and I do know you well enough by now that there is another hand full or two of parts that could be done . but not right now I need to get me some tuning and a rip or two before rally day . I hope we can keep setting the pace ..

I am impressed in the difference the bike runs for more than one reason but the biggest help I think is the propane . In all honesty I didn't notice at the time but watching the video I think it made me jump a bit when it started so quick .. this one is for you Enjoy ...

bumpstart

brilliant.. purrs like a tomcat in a creamery!

congratulations with pulling off a tricky concept first go and doing it very well

timing sounds pretty good..
suggest maybe you have an issue with the dial back timing light making things hard
and suggest you get a simpler timing light

if it still has trouble.. try it on the other lead.. as this fires same time

if you are using the leading coilpack from FC or FD it actually has the spark travelling in the opposite direction on the other side of the coil
,,( dinkum ! ) ie back towards the coil pack
and this throws many timing lights ( aside the nasty smudge type non inductive )





few people could boast on a cleaner start up after entirely swapping all the induction .


.., even with EFI..

is this the number 2 engine and is it the first start for it ?