bumpstart

struggling at this end too ,, very hot here and with my own health issues that dont like that one bit ...

not much time to reply atm, will make a closer look and comment when i find some


looks neat . concerned that the "vaccuum lockoff" is a VFF30 .. this is a considerably bulky device ( like the model E ) and is un-neccessary


the ignition safety switch instead is a simple relay/ control box with about 6 wires and is much smaller
( will get a pic when i have time ...)

thinks the pulley is 360 mm in circumference...? ( vote 1 .. metric )

tune wise you select from either FB ( rich ) or non FB ( lean ) airgas valves supplied with the mixer
you can shim the gas valve leaner
and you also have full mixture adjust valve ( wide open for us ) on the gas vapour inlet on the mixer

all of this can be further tuned rich or lean with change between red and blue springs in the convertor ( adjusts vapour pressure )

and also by the pill size in the SV ( when used as power valve )

///



with a turbo it will self adjust ( these are CD type carburettors ) and stay relatively close in tune
-- fuel vapour pressure from the convertor will ramp up and down with boost or vacuum when the convertor reference hose is used
you flip off that perforated brass mesh cover on the convertor and put in a nipple for 1/8 or 3/16 hose and route it to one of those vac nipple points provided on the mixer

- that is all you have to do to turn the impco system to blow through turbo -

idle tune wise there is an air bypass screw on the side
then will be as simple as setting up your air bypass position and the SV/power valve pill so you can get a cold start ( and a hot one ) and go for smoothest fast idle
then setting main mixture valve to abouts full wide open

myself i use the standard non FB air gas valve and convertor springs ( as yours was supplied ) and it is nearly there out of the box asided needing the SV for initial cold cranking
( which is about 8 secs crank when dead dry as i have selected the pill around 2.2 mm ( memory ) to suit my AFR when it is used as power valve )

route your SV to the points provided on the mixer ( not TB, not inlet manifold , engine side )
as the extra vacuum at those other points may encourage too much flow and flooding

bumpstart

OMP wise you can use the cable to feed a bit of bias ( so it is always partly on ) and then have the correct length throw from there to full OMP
careful that the OMP cable stroke does not limit that of other cables,, or worse present as load across throttle plates
( this issue haunts some weber carb installs and results in twisted throttle blades )

your cable and bracket are neat, but be mindful the silicon hose with clamp and pipes from the turbo will enter the 200 mixer there..

the OMP hoses themselves do get hot..normal beer tube wont last long..
there is threads here on what materials to use,, i think teflon whipper snipper fuel hose may be best candidate

bumpstart

http://www.peelinstruments.com.au/wp...7c8cb07_06.jpg

ignition type safety switch ( there is also some that use oil pressure )

gerald m

Ok I check this out and see what I come up with ,
The OMP lines aren't beer tube , I did buy some but it was not nice stuff .. this hose I am using has a small ID with a extra thick wall suppose to be good for 500 deg. and 135 lbs should be good boss.

Seems to me you mentioned you had degenerative spinal disease , Must be pure hell . I know what I go through with simple compacted nerves in the lower spine but still I have a bearable life most of the time , it only raises hell if I not careful lifting and pulling on heavy stuff . I thinking you suffer 24-7 ,

gerald m

so if I order the peel cp30 that will do the job will it ??

gerald m

Been a while since an update , mostly getting lots of little problems worked out finding places for equipment is becoming a bit of a challenge but I seem to find spots here and there for mounting different hardware .
Bumpstart hinted to me to use boost pressure to activate 5th and 6th port actuators so I have routed one line from the intake manifold to the actuators ,.. Now the ports should open when the boost pressure starts to rise to 2 pounds pressure . OMP is finished with spring loaded arm so the pump output will be around 15% at idle and reach full at WOT.

I have sorted out most of the fuel vessel problems . just waiting for connectors to vessels and regulator . Build a couple of brackets to hold the tanks in place ..

I think it is safe to say that there is no propane tanks designed for a motorcycle besides the ugly bulky tanks used on barbecues etc. so I have built my own out of necessity . Have a good one ... Gerald

bumpstart

sorry i missed your posts lately, looks like things have come a long way

.. hopes also you mitty -vac that inlet so none of that swarth ran through the engine

do the tank pickups run to bottom of tanks ( liquid draw ) ? .. they look ideally sized and should help redistribute the weight forward and keep the front down under what will be double the power


turbo wise you are limited to a turbo that is in the 300 rwhp range ( the limits of the single model E convertor for sustained running )

though it will take a little more in instantaneous bursts
(the convertor will slowly freeze then deny the engine vapour fuel )

as such most of the early and moderate to4 range will do the job
.. as you dont need huge compressor flows
or really need to concentrate on spool
( since your driveline is marginal and allows for some initial slip )

reducing engine backpressure at that 300 rwhp mark is possibly your most concerning factor

im thinking something simple with an O or P trim rear turbine ( or stage 2 or stage 3 t3 turbine )
in a1.15 open turbine housing is in the ball park for exhaust flow and also makes things simple for a wastegate that will be 48- 55 mm
matched with a compressor minor diameter in the 52- 60 mm range it will do the inlet airflow required
( to4B will be 71 mm on the compressor major diameter and to4E will be 76 mm , a to4B tends to be a little more efficient when operated around 1 bar,, and the others run better at higher boosts )

spec wise.. its one of the better diesel tractor turbos from the 70's .. on a car performance forum the turbos tend to be tailored for larger airflows and faster spool.. at greater expense
on here,, one of the lesser specced gt35's will do it with lots to spare .. and give hybrid or ball bearing core options
.. or on the other hand a t04 P trim witha 60 -1 front will also be pretty much the same thing but in plain bearings

turbo core wise,, adding the water cooling is not necessary ( given idle down periods ) ,, and adds to the complication , choosing an older " dry " core .. or simply not hooking up the cooling in a wet one.. is the way to go


location wise.. go forward and up , in a single collector if you have to.. put the turbo where it can fit, drain down to the sump, and have minimal effect on balance.. in that order

the wastegate on the other hand,, and especially on a log type single collector , should get the most favourable position for exhaust flow.. over that of the turbo

.. else you will need bigger and bigger wastegates and have poor boost control

bumpstart

PS.. have you thought of using the original NA exhaust collector and putting wastegate off the normal exit,, and adding pipe to the front to mount the turbo ( where it fits ) from??

gerald m

I take it the weather is being cruel ,, You guys have had record heat and we have had record cold . the coldest year for over 20years . how does a balmy -56 celcius sound for a winter day . , we had many days this winter with -40 to -45 c. on the other hand I think a + 40 c. day after day would be worse , we are getting into some thawing temps so spring should be here in a few weeks .


Yes for sure the mixer was plugged with a nice fine cloth then I used the suck thing on it , no problem it's clean . All is good with the fuel vessels , Bought a set of flexible plastic tubes for toilet hook up , shaved them down just a tad and threaded them in where the OPD float was . The spitter tube is still intact just shortened to make up the difference between the 20 LB. diameter and my vessels . the pressure relief valves are also still intact and will be vented down and possibly through the frame to the rear with the radiator overflow hose . One thing I not sure of ,,, the set of LPG hoses that I am using and can't find any info on are designed to hook two tanks together with a brass T fitting attaching the two together ((( there is some kind of balance system in the T fitting and what it does it floats back and forth between the two hoses and near as I can tell is designed to keep both tanks at the same level which I thought would be a good thing , the only thing I never took into account is I don't know weather the device will work the same with liquid as it does with vapor , The whole unit is designed for 350 LBS. pressure . the vessels them selves are tested to 3000 LBS with the original valves installed so the taper threads that I made (( Also tapered the hole so it should be good for far more pressure than will ever be realized . )) hope that makes sense .

Came up with 3 different ways to wire up the double circuit on the SV and LO . the easiest and me thinks the best is to Install a diode in the line between the SV and LO so the throttle switch can activate anytime the switch is on and throttle is WO but won't let the CP-20 unit interfere with the SV as the diode will not allow back feed so that should be good . Nice small fuse block (( the red lights come on if there is a blown fuse in any one of the 4 circuits )) ,.. The divided switches kinda caught my eye nothing should ever get turned on or off accidentally . The little throttle switch finally found a home tucked in behind things and activates at about 4 =5ths of full throttle , can be adjusted .

Turbos ,,, I didn't realize that the water cooled ones could be used also I did come across what I thought was pretty close to what we need but was oil and water cooled . I will start looking at some more turbo stuff and show you what I find , I agree I think a simple basic turbo will do the job well I see no reason to spend huge amounts of money on one that will see very minimal hours .

so you want the EXTERNAL waste gate to be friendly with the exhaust flow and let it escape at a reasonable angle ?? I do think that most parts will fit in close without going to far away

bumpstart

first cool week ( 30 c ) in over 100 days, so some relief.. otherwise it has been too hot to accomplish anything under a tin roof

the cp20 is essentially a timer relay.. if it sees an ignition pulse it will keep closed a power circuit to feed 12v to your safety solenoids
if it doesnt see one in a time out period ( about 5-10 secs ).. it will go open circuit.. and your safety solenoids will fail-safe shut

so it needs an input from the - side of one of the coils ..
.. it also has incoming , key switched fused 12v power
also an earth
and a switched output 12v
( that goes to the solenoids, then out of them to earth )


the SV ( starting primer valve ) may use more current than the cp20 can handle
.. so it is best to use a relay to power and control it
using a standard 4 pin automotive relay
( if possible grab one with inbuilt fuse holder,, and even better one with a fly-back resister )

wire pin 30 to the key switched 12v source that is feeding the cp20
( from fused side if you have a simple relay )

wire pin 87 to the SV + ( and out other side to earth )

wire pin 85 to the + output from the cp20
( tee it to one of the wires feeding the safety solenoid )

wire pin 86 to the primer actuation switch .. and other side of the switch.. to earth

the pill size used in the hose from the SV to the mixer body ( or between mixer and TB )
is determined normally by how fast it primes up correctly for a cold start
however .. if using the SV as an auxiliary PV ( power valve ) as well
then the pill size is dictated by the AFR under load.. and if you suffering from a lean spot on throttle flair
( mine being around 2.4 mm by memory .. and switched by vac trigger point around 2 inch Hg )


for the operation of the SV as an auxillary power valve -

wire your PV trigger switch ( be it throttle position. or vacuum or pressure switch )
from earth.. to pin 86 on the SV relay

ie

the SV/PV is driven by that relay .. the relay is semi activated by power up from the CP20 along pin 85

when operating as SV.. your finger trigger switch earths pin 86 .. and the relay closes and powers up the SV/PV

when operating as PV.. the pressure switch... or throttle switch..also earth out pin 86 ,, completing the switch circuit ,, and opens the PV


and yes,, external wastegate will be required .. ( unless you take some expensive modern internal turbo options )
and at low boost pressures,, it is best to get the wastegate big,, and in most preferential exhaust flow .. else boost will spike

gerald m

yea I can do that ,, Just happens I bought one the other day good for 20-30 amps being as I didn't know which way would be the best it has also a pin 87a but should be pretty much the same thing . it's not fuses but have a pin on my fuse box intended for that .

Me thinks you misunderstand what I mean by a pill in the fitting between my two fuel vessel hoses . the pics will explain better . you can see the two little holes in the brass fitting there is a brass disc with a soft rubber inset the disc can move from one side or the other . when the disc slides one way it goes up against a taper in the end of the hose and blocks that side off , when it slides to the other side it blocks the other side . I guessing that the disc is intended to shift back and forth to keep the both propane tanks at the same pressure and level . the brass fitting has the same thread as any OPD valve has . so basically what I need to do there is to get another hose to fit any OPD tank valve to run from the fitting to my Lock OFF valve . Just don't know weather the disc will preform the same with liquid as it would with vapor feeding through . The whole assembly is intended to attach two tanks to a RV trailer for prolonged use . The RV trailer hose would attach to the brass fitting and accepts the very same hose ends as in the pics .

bumpstart

not sure you will need any sort of device to keep the bottles equalised , besided a tee

the relay with a pin 87a is a five pin latching relay .. depending on switch condition,, either 87a or 87 will be live and will alternate when the switch changes
( alternating the output pins )

you have to be sure you are wired off the correct 87 pin , else things may work in reverse condition

gerald m

I will just remove the pill in the brass fitting and drill the two holes out just a tad so we are assured a ample flow of LPG .

here is the relay ..

gerald m

I checked the outputs of the CP-30 and is rated for 12.5 amps @12 volts , the L-O draws a max of 1.5 amps my meter says 1.2 amps when activated , being as the L-O is the only thing on that circuit (( the SV is on a totally different circuit )) I would like to try to run without the relay if I fuse the power wire feeding the CP=30 to say 7.5 amps The fuse should blow before any damage happens to it . if it smokes it well my bad. Biggest reason is one less part to contend with and I know the diodes will do their job , I have used them lots on different things , very nice to work with , vibration doesn't bother them . I also want a light in the SV circuit so I know when that puppy is activated both for priming and WOT .

gerald m

I have a short video of the cp-39 wired in and working under all combinations of cold start engine prime to extra fuel vapor at WOT . I will get it uploaded asap ..

Bumpstart The peel cp-30 works better than I thought it would , you mentioned between 10 to 15 seconds for the switch to deactivate , but to my delight it actually deactivates in 2 seconds without a ignition signal , I like that , so when the tether switch is pulled apart or the ignition switch is shut off the propane shuts off almost immediately ,, but during start up the peel will activate as soon as the dizzy sends a signal to the coil there is no delay on that side . So I'm pleased with lock-off switch I'm glad I went to the trouble to order the peel cp-30 from Australia . I sure the ones available in the US were a much longer time delay and were the same money . with the shipping cost of $20.10 AUS to Canada the part alone I think was 36.00 AUS . so no complaints there .

The primer works as it should and the diode is working perfect . at WOT everything is activated as should . I will PM you a few more turbos and you can tell me which one you like the best .and will start ordering parts for that and yes I want a v-clamp end on the hot side so it will adjust angle with ease .

for the dual flange turbo assembly I take it that it doesn't really effect much to feed them with on pipe with the divided flange welded to it


Rather than mount turbo oil line to banjo flange at engine I should be able to T into the cooler feed line as it is just 300 LBS.test oil hose . or am I dreaming ?? or would it be best to use the return side for the cooler temperature oil .

bumpstart

a divided flange ( and turbine housing ) sitting on a log manifold will still work AOK
it just wont be true "twin scroll" ..but the benefit is a simple manifold and wastegate layout
whilst allowing us easy 1.15 turbine cover options

turbo oil supply can be tapped into the banjo bolt at the bottom of the rear plate
( much safer than adding a tee to the oil cooler lines )
or tapped into the alum neck for the oil filter
( or an aftermarket adapter will sit between the oil filter and the pedastel , and provide ports for turbo and oil gauge )

teeing the oil cooler line is a bit more tricky and risky,, though the short one will provide more pressure ( pre cooler ) but will be hotter in temp

.. you already have much more pressure than the turbo is usually specced to see and as such , more is problematic

drain wise.. it uses gravity ( and usually a slight vacuum on the sump breather system )
to return to the top of the sump space


depending where this turbo fits best..and also dependent on the angles if the bike gets up on the back wheel ..
that may be the usual spot-
( tapped into timing cover under OMP .. though removing the nut, pulley and timing cover is not an easy option )

or it can go into a higher part of the sump
( tapped into sump is a relatively painless option , though care is needed to get a spot that isnt submerged )

or.. if the turbo ends up over that bell housing/ transmission cover ( which it may ) // then it may ( if high enough ) be possible to route the drain into the oil filler neck

gerald m

Forgot to mention , about stock manifolds ,, the one was a header type design that I cut apart and used the header plate to make the ones on the bike last summer , and the other manifold looks like something that came off a dam space ship and way to big , its cast iron I think . so I guess I will cut the plate of the headers I have now rather than make a new one .

About the twin scroll , Maybe I will try fit two single pipes and make it proper , I know what you mean . If I can keep the pipes down to say 1 3/4 inch max 1 1/2 would be nice , but they will be very close together , might need to bridge them to keep them apart a tad . Now this question will make you think I dumber than a dog chewed stick but with a twin pipe design do or can I run the waste gate off just one pipe ?( I see no arguments in any threads either way about that ) like say the left or clutch side ,

i check out whats up with oil filter adapters for turbo feed , if they cheap I will buy one if not I make it instead , simple to do just more time that all .

If we should have a little vacuum in bottom end It will almost need to be pre turbo or a tube pointing down stream in the exhaust pipe . . don't know how else to do it , when under boost is when it would need it most .

I think for now for drain I will route it right through the top of the oil filler cap ( my filler tube is very short maybe 3 inches shorter than stock so it is plenty low I think .)with a long enough hose to reach past the small part inside , then if I take the engine out for something i will build a nice drain . thanks have a good one ..

gerald m

bumpstart

the wastegate needs to get equal feed off both runners in a twin scroll system.. massively complicating the install and the boost control issues
lack of space for all this is the primary reason we will be forced to a log style manifold
with so much exhaust energy ( a little more even than some typical rotaries ) and spool not being the most critical component ...

then the differences in performance between twin scroll and undivided are not significant enough to chase

if a flow through ventilation system is required then we can add a vacuum at the turbo inlet,, and put a filter on the filler cap or on one of the breather nipples

bumpstart

i am a little concerned that it appears the throttle switch overides the cp30 safety switch

the safety switch should operate the LPG shut off solenoids and be controlled entirely by the presence of spark and ignition switch
( and the condition of a tether switch if fitted )

the SV ( and is also auxillery power valve ) should operate as a result of a warm up switch .. or the throttle being wide open ( in my case a pressure switch limit )

if you wire the power for the SV from the switched output from the CP30 .. then the shutdown of the cp30 failsafe will also shut down the SV/ PV

it appears that your throttle being open encouraged the cp30 to remain open

to cold start ( and keep the SV open ) then the switch needs to be shut and the motor cranked over ( or key jogged repeatedly )
( mine takes 6-8 seconds dead cold.. and 1 second warm )

confirm that your throttle switch is not causing the cp30 to remain open despite no ignition pulse

if it is,, then it is a simple rethink of the wiring down there so that the SV switches cannot influence the operation of the cp30

gerald m

Well I intentionally wired the cp-30 that way so I would have a long prime for a fast cold start . I can just put a toggle in line to turn that circuit on and off and then the cp-will be totally independent when the toggle is off.

It is important to me that it starts quickly , One of my chickens I guess but it just kills me to hear an engine turning over and not starting right away .so I will need to activate the solenoid for prime and then just shut the toggle off after start-up ,, then the sv will be independent and work at WOT .


Took the oil filter housing off #1 engine got looking at it and heck there is lots of room to drill and tap 1/8 npt. lots of room the aluminum is a little thicker there than I thought . Once I found a good oil lube schematic there are a few places where we could go . at least the oil filter is on the cool side of the oil cooler so it will feed the turbo the coolest oil possible and is also past both pressure reg and relief valve . it looks like on turbo models the oil is supplied almost at the end of the cycle before it goes to the sump , the oil would be hotter there ..

gerald m

The rich lean valve on the mixer is on the full rich position ,

I finally realize what you mean by the SV-PV pill . It came in a little bag with wire ends and stated that it should be used with smaller engines so I never installed it , he is still in the box so the SV-PV output is as large as it gets .

The SV only activates when in full throttle position , during ignition on and run modes the SV is not activated in any way so should not effect tuning . only during wot .

gerald m

Needed a break from the engine and propane mods so seeing as I couldn't find anything on line to buy decided to make one .

gerald m

The last step in the Dragons' propane -turbo build , well maybe not I do remember something about a water maybe meth injection as possibly the last step I guess we see how everything else goes first .

It looks like the turbo will snuggle in somewhere as is in pictures .maybe a couple inches higher and to the right an inch or maybe two . looks like there will still be room for the battery . It's a heavy little bugger around 18.5 lbs So I don't feel running it out the side is an option two much weight going to one side .

The waste gate and 3" exhaust pipe will go out the left (( I read quite a bit about the 50 MM waste gate pipe going back into the main exhaust for better flow , any opinions on that ?? )) and the suck will need to go forward maybe , I sure don't like the thoughts of another one of them ugly cone filters .

Looks like the oil drain will need to go down by the OMP , Kinda got my eye on that nice little flat spot just at the bottom of the OMP and a little towards center , Could drill in there and tap 1/8 inch NPT . coolant lines are done .

found another meet to run in july apparently some pretty good money to be won there .

bumpstart

its going to need a heat shield where it sits there !! the turbine will glow red hot by end of run

you clock both turbine housing and compressor housing to suit your need, keeping the core vertical to drain

PS.. wastegate can plumb back in ,, but on a bike might be easier just to give it its own pipe exit,, each pipe needs to have a cross ( made from bolts drilled through the tube ) at its exit for safety purpose

( standard fair some drag meets to prevent turbine bits hitting crowd )