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I have an 87 fc with a 92 turbo 2 swap. I bought it with blown rear apex seals. I visually inspected through the exhaust port and the rotor and the rotor housings are going to need to be replaced. Im going to have to rip the whole thing apart and was wondering will i need a flywheel puller? And what are some ways to torque the flywheel without a 350 foot pound torque wrench? Im looking into making an engine stand adapter. Anything else?
Only "special" tools you need you probably already have, save for the flywheel socket.
-big impact wrench
-54MM / 2 1/8" socket for flywheel
-feeler gauges
-dial indicator with magnetic base
-straight edge
-Vaseline
These videos will help you in the process of rebuild a 13B or 12A engine. While they deal with an older 13B from an RX-5 Cosmo, the engine internals are basically the same for any 12A or 13B. The only real difference is that on engines newer than '85, the coolant O-rings are in the irons instead of the housings as shown in this video.
The first video is engine removal. While it is an RX-5 Cosmo, an car that few will ever see let alone work on, the process will give you the general idea of an engine removal. Steps are similar for most rotary vehicles, it's the details that differ.
The next video is engine disassembly and some cleaning. This is an old carbureted 13B so the accessories bolted to the engine are different than newer engines. However the process of externally disassembling any rotary is about the same. Covered here is also flywheel removal (same for any rotary) and engine parts cleaning.
Cleaning of all engine parts continues in this video. Provided here are examples of how this is accomplished with a minimum of tools and supplies. It's a lot of labor to clean old parts until they are looking new again. At the same time, parts should be inspected.
Finally, here is the engine assembly. This video includes clearancing side seals, assembling all the seals onto the rotor, then assembling all the parts into a 13B short block.
Thanks for the detailed reply, ive seen lots of posts and answered questions by you and theyve been more than helpful. I got the engine ready to come out today and tomorrow ill be removing it to further take it apart and see what will need to be replaced. I know the rotor and housing are toast and the turbo has minor chips in the turbine fins. Im going to need replacement parts and im debating on buying used housings and getting them machined or maybe new ones. If you know of any threads with tips on sourcing used rotors or a good place to get new ones and turbo parts id appreciate it. Ive searched for about 2 days now on where to get an oem turbo replacement or at least a new chra but iv found nothing. Maybe im not searching properly as im new to using forums and i dont really wanna sound like some noob. Thanks again for the help
thanks ill look into getting all the parts once everythings apart and i inspect all the components to see what needs replacing. Its a jdm motor that only had 2000 kms since it was swapped in so the other rotor and housing should be okay.
the turbo housings are clean and practically looks new, is there somewhere i can send it to to get the crha rebuilt and a new turbine installed and balanced? Or does everyone just buy a new turbo everytime their apex seals kicks its ***
not new no, only the complete turbos are available new. though i have a number of cores i use for parts. i do rebuild them too with good matched sets of wheels.
Wow. That thing is totalled. Looks like it blew up under boost. Assuming nothing crazy has been done like jacking up the boost with an FCD on a stock fuel system, you need to figure out why. Have all the injectors flow tested and professionally cleaned. Flush the fuel system and check pump and filters. Check the injector connectors, etc.
Finding a used housing and rotor shouldn't be too hard. The classifieds section on this forum has always been good to me. FedEx is usually very economical for international shipping (the US postal system sees Canada then adds a few zeros to the price).
Here's some engine disassembly and assembly, with a little more emphasis on entertainment:
This car was owned by an old man who took the time to write down all the work he did in detail when he bought anything and installed the new motor. An 18 year old kid bought it off him amd in a couple thousand kms managed to put all the guys hard work to waste. I bought the car from him knowing it had a blown engine as ive always wanted a rotary and to do a rebuild. From what ive heard i have a few suspicions as to what happenned from what i know and have been told.
the kid wasnt at all mechanically inclined.
it has new rebuilt 550cc injectors.
a fuel pressure regulator which i dont know what its set at.
new oem fuel pump.
Most the hoses were redone.
I think it has an rtek chip but i havent really looked into it yet, notes say stage 2 ecu.
okay so this is a quote from the kids ad i bought it from and it never really made sense and concerned me a little: "has a jdm turbo 2 swap with the boost cranked to 8 psi making what feels like 275 hp"
I thought the wastegate pressure on these was 8 psi? And if he indeed turned it up on the stock system that would for sure lean out and detonate. Im thinking the boost guage might be innacurate or something. Iv removed the boost controller and have it so when everythings together it will be on wastegate, and ill adjust the fuel pressure and everything to stock levels until i know for sure nothing else is wrong.
Since this is getting off topic of specialty tools. should i make a build thread, or where should i continue this discussion? For tips and help for a person new to rotaries
however the front eccentric shaft bolt is actually the most difficult part to disassemble so i would add a map torch and possibly flywheel stopper to the list. on some engines i needed a 4 foot cheater bar, an oxy acetylene torch and all my weight to get it to submit... funny how 90ft/lbs can easily turn to 600ft/lbs after a few years.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 02-12-17 at 11:20 PM.
Sorry im new to forums and just thought it was bad to get off topic from the title, but if its okay to talk about other things im really appreciating the help
The engine has roughly 50kilometers and everythings been easy to remove so far, over the next week or so ill be pulling everything apart so well see how things go. Im hoping to do this rebuild under $1500 but im not cutting corners so if it costs more it costs more
it's more for others who come in and start dragging a thread off the tracks. nothing wrong with the original poster getting multiple questions answered in a single thread.
Not really a rotary specialty tool but a blind bearing puller is needed for the pilot bearing. The bearing and dust seal are really cheap and should be changed if you have no record of it being changed previously. Most chain parts stores will have loaners.
Thanks for the tip ill for sure change that out.
and once everythings running smoothly, my long term hp goals are around 300-350 is there anything youd suggest i do while everythings apart? And iv read around a lot but dont really know what apex seals i should use. Someone said ra steel seals are good. I plan on using it as a street car and occasionally auto x, but not a daily
I'm not a builder. Several years ago on a rebuild I did with new housings I chose to stay with OEM seals with no regrets. But RotaryEvolution is a builder, he might have a different take. Listen to him.
Your engine harness will likely be pretty stiff and in need of re-wrapping from heat. Treat it as gently as possible while taking all the fried plastic insulation off. I like the self- fusing silicone tape for initial re-wrap followed by electrical or friction tape. You may also need injector pig-tails.
An often overlooked tool in a rebuild is the camera on your cell phone during disassembly. It bailed me out a few times.
if you can manage to build the car problem free and tune it accurately, OEM are the best all around seals. going 3mm will help more for peace of mind that the seals will not be destroyed by slight to moderate detonation cycles.
but the factory OEM seals are brittle and when they do fail they tend to destroy parts with them, such as rotors, housings and turbos. as you found out.
almost all of the aftermarket seals have the ability to take the damage instead of the seals breaking, rather they will warp versus break and be ejected through the engine as the OEMs do. as a compromise they tend to wear the housings, so if it isn't a car that is driven regularly then the unbreakable seals quite possibly are a better choice.
every aftermarket seal has the ability to gouge the rotor housings, i haven't seen any that work as well as the OEM seals against that.
generally i use Goopy seals in the turbo builds, but i have had a few cases where they gouged the rotor housings but i have been impressed with their ability to tolerate lean issues and detonation for short periods of time. no seal can hold up against more than a few short bursts of detonation.
as far as why some aftermarket seals gouge the housings and others of the same brand do not is still a mystery. i have seen them all do it, even in some rare cases the factory OEM seals have done it. it could be as simple as air filtration, because upgraded turbos need to breathe and none of these pod filters filter very well. once a seal begins to gall the housings it is a snowball effect that will not stop or correct itself.
some people have managed to get 100k out of a set of aftermarket seals, others have had them start chewing up the housings in as little as a few thousand miles. no engine builder can definitely give you a good answer as to which seals will give you the best results, because there is a little bit of luck involved. i have Goopy seals in my own engine, but i also have the ability to resurface the housings if they do wind up taking damage from galling. my last engine i ran Atkins seals in it for 80k miles, it eventually gave out from low compression due to galling of the housings, but even the housings were salvagable with some work and the seals were worn very little from all those miles, aside from the roughness as they dug in.
i have good and bad stories of all of them, including 3mm ceramics which can decimate engines. ceramics are hands down the best for preventing wear, chatter, galling, gouging, etc, but they are also the most fragile of all options and costly in the event of failure, not even counting their initial cost.
i will be doing my own experimentations with some zirconium seals in the near future. the n/a RX7 and RX8's i am hoping could be made near bulletproof with them.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 02-14-17 at 04:21 PM.
Yeah ive been taking hundreds of pictures while removing the engine and labled every hose, wire, and bolt ive removed. Last thing i want to do is miss something simple and ruin it all over again 👍
thanks rotaryrevolution, it seems like maybe oem 2mm will be my choice for now. It seems like the best option as i plan on modding it very carefully to protect the new motor. And when you say OEM do you mean the mazda seals right?
I havent had time to pull the engine apart yet but as soon as i do ill post pictures of the good side rotor and housings and maybe you can tell me wether the housing will need machining. If the rear housing is even salvageable it will for sure need machining as it looks scuffed up pretty bad.
also when you say the upgraded turbo doesnt get enough airflow with pod filters, would there be a way to have two pod filters hooked up to a Y pipe? Just an idea i had haha, And if not what would be a better system for air filtration?
i will be doing my own experimentations with some zirconium seals in the near future. the n/a RX7 and RX8's i am hoping could be made near bulletproof with them.
What is zirconium made of exactly? And i hope that works out for you. Maybe ill be buying some one day
Aaron may have it covered in those vids but you want a clean WELL lit work area. And depending on you situation, a space you can close off from kids, clueless wives and curious neighbors. I found myself having to let things sit occasionally waiting for parts or life. Being able to pick up exactly where I left off w/o things being moved or jacked with was a plus.
The car already has the cats removed and has a full turbo back exhaust with a resonator and still has the air pump hooked up to it. was wondering what emmisions equiptment and engine bay cleanup i can do without affecting the tuning? Would be nice to remove the air pump. I also hear the AWS is reccomended to be removed?
02-10-17, 09:53 PM
