Microtech for fd street/track days
08-06-16, 10:37 AM
#76
Engine, Not Motor
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Yes, that's absolutely what it boils down to. There's almost no point in buying a Microtech these days when there are multiple better options for the same or less money. And all of them have software on the computer side that doesn't make you want to punch babies when you use it!
Oh, that's another thing I haven't mentioned: the stupid Microtech laptop adapter. To access the Microtech via computer you must pony up another $100 to buy a hardware dongle containing a microcontroller that translates the signal from the serial port to the equivalent of the hand controller so the Microtech can understand it. As I recall, this was done by Microtech to avoid paying licensing fees to someone else who had a patent on direct serial communication with an EMS. Oh and that dongle is where you can save your maps, up to 4 of them, if you wish.
Oh, that's another thing I haven't mentioned: the stupid Microtech laptop adapter. To access the Microtech via computer you must pony up another $100 to buy a hardware dongle containing a microcontroller that translates the signal from the serial port to the equivalent of the hand controller so the Microtech can understand it. As I recall, this was done by Microtech to avoid paying licensing fees to someone else who had a patent on direct serial communication with an EMS. Oh and that dongle is where you can save your maps, up to 4 of them, if you wish.
08-06-16, 12:21 PM
#78
Aaron thank you for your input. You seem to know a lot about Tunning. I wish I was that brave to tune a rotary car. Adaptationics seems to be a good ecu but my Mechanic tunes microtech. Just making sure I was not going to start hating my car if I switched to microtech
08-06-16, 12:57 PM
#79
Aaron thank you for your input. You seem to know a lot about Tunning. I wish I was that brave to tune a rotary car. Adaptationics seems to be a good ecu but my Mechanic tunes microtech. Just making sure I was not going to start hating my car if I switched to microtech
Also, tuning any and all ECUs are just about the same. They all have fuel maps and timing tables. They all squirt fuel into an engine and fire a spark plug. If your tuner will not touch anything outside of a microtech, it might be time to find someone who is comfortable with more ECUs and even more car lines.
If you want to see for yourself, you can download the Haltech software and the Megasquirt software for free and play with it. You can see how the tables are arranged and how to adjust them. They are all basically the same, for the most part. I also just downloaded Eugene for Adaptronic and loaded a basemap just to play with. You can get in and play around without having the ECU hooked up.
About 8 years ago, I built a car for a customer. It was a twin turbo 3000GT with an AEM standalone in it. I dropped it off at a tuner nearby to get it dialed in. The guys there specialized in Camaro and Mustang drag cars. They were happy to tune the 3kGT and said it would take a little longer than usual just so they could familiarize themselves with the software. The car ended up making 550WHP when it was done. It really is all about the tuner, less so the controller. If you have a tuner that prefers the Microtech that's fine, just be aware that at your price point, you can get so much more.
Last edited by ACR_RX-7; 08-06-16 at 01:00 PM.
08-06-16, 01:06 PM
#82
I am not much into fancy things like launch Control and changing around maps. I like adoptronics for it seems more spot on as far as fuel delevery, spark and timing which= better running car but i would have to research a good turner in this area. I can't afford for some half *** turner to blow my engine trying to tune it.
08-06-16, 01:28 PM
#83
I am not much into fancy things like launch Control and changing around maps. I like adoptronics for it seems more spot on as far as fuel delevery, spark and timing which= better running car but i would have to research a good turner in this area. I can't afford for some half *** turner to blow my engine trying to tune it.
If your current tuner only does Microtech, chances are he is not very experienced overall. It's just how it sounds. I'm not saying to find the guy who tunes everything and anything, but keep in mind that any good tuner will stay safe and not push the engine for some ungodly number. A well running and balanced car once done keeps a guy in business. If they are known for popping engines, they will also be unemployed fairly quickly.
I'm going to guess that you have a Facebook account. Look up "Tuning Fork" on there. He's the guy who guest appears in Mighty Car Mods. He has several videos about these topics, from choosing a controller, to getting your car ready, and finding a tuner. It's all generic really, but you need to make sure that before you strap down to the rollers that your car is ready to go.
Any good tuner will have a checklist or at least will inspect and chat with you before any work is done about the process and what needs to be done. Far too often you hear about guys who pay a couple hundred bucks, get on the rollers, they make a power run and KABOOM. Some tuners try to advertise that they can get more power out of a car than anyone else. This is usually a sign that they are only interested in the number on the sheet, not the welfare of your engine.
There is a guy here in Washington who claimed to get more power out of EVOs and STIs than even English Racing. He also claimed that his tunes would do better on a car even after English had just gotten done with a tune. All of those cars he tuned are now getting new engines. All. Of. Them.
To be fair, he did get more power out of them.....for a little while.
08-06-16, 01:46 PM
#84
Ya. I have a lot of those big Number tuners in my area (central,Fl). The other problem is not many of them tune rotaries. My guy has a very good rep with rotaries and tuning them but only tunes microtech. He believes they were built just for rotaries. I wish he tuned adoptronics
08-07-16, 10:27 AM
#87
Engine, Not Motor
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Typical Microtech. When they do implement a feature, it's only 85% of the way and years too late.
Aaron thank you for your input. You seem to know a lot about Tunning. I wish I was that brave to tune a rotary car. Adaptationics seems to be a good ecu but my Mechanic tunes microtech. Just making sure I was not going to start hating my car if I switched to microtech
I completely agree with the statement that if the tuner only tunes Microtech and is unwilling to even look at something else (probably because his understanding is barely above carburetor, and he likely also says stuff like "I don't do wiring!" or doesn't understand how a relay works) then find another tuner! Frankly anyone who has tuned a Microtech should be able to get used to another ECUs tuning software fairly quickly. Their eyes will go wide with how much it doesn't suck. There virtually is no difference in the basics of tuning no matter what ECU.
I'd also say I agree with the suggestion that you download the Haltech and Megasquirt software (TunerStudio) and take a look. I have Megasquirt maps on my website. Load one up in the software and poke around. You can find Haltech maps on this forum to do the same thing.
To be competitive in the market, and not saddle customers with limited functionality for the same or more cost of other products which do much more.
08-08-16, 10:15 AM
#89
Once running, they work just fine with no issues. This is a guy who wanted to install a Microtech and was asking about it's functionality.
Sure, 3+ years ago, no one would steer you away, but today there are far too many other options that are more equipped and easier to tune AND more precise for the same or lower price.
I look at it from several angles, but it's been summed up adnauseum by other members.
Pros: They work.
Reliable.
Noise free
Cons: You have to send it back to Aus for any work and upgrades
No software updates at all the last 10 years
Tuning software from the DOS era
Poor interpolation
Poor datalogging
Fewer inputs and outputs than other controllers in same price range
Lack of additional features (closed loop, traction control, etc)
No one is denying that the Microtech will work just fine and last a long long time. Probably one of the most reliable out there, but controllers today are built better, have more features, better user interface, better datalogging, superior cell resolution, and more.
It comes down to the cost to benefit ratio. The cost is on par with a Haltech Platinum, or a Adaptronic 440, but has a fraction of the features and support.
If I go to Best Buy for a new laptop, I'm going to expect Windows 10 on a Quad Core Intel, not Windows NT on a Pentium 2 unit.
Sure, 3+ years ago, no one would steer you away, but today there are far too many other options that are more equipped and easier to tune AND more precise for the same or lower price.
I look at it from several angles, but it's been summed up adnauseum by other members.
Pros: They work.
Reliable.
Noise free
Cons: You have to send it back to Aus for any work and upgrades
No software updates at all the last 10 years
Tuning software from the DOS era
Poor interpolation
Poor datalogging
Fewer inputs and outputs than other controllers in same price range
Lack of additional features (closed loop, traction control, etc)
No one is denying that the Microtech will work just fine and last a long long time. Probably one of the most reliable out there, but controllers today are built better, have more features, better user interface, better datalogging, superior cell resolution, and more.
It comes down to the cost to benefit ratio. The cost is on par with a Haltech Platinum, or a Adaptronic 440, but has a fraction of the features and support.
If I go to Best Buy for a new laptop, I'm going to expect Windows 10 on a Quad Core Intel, not Windows NT on a Pentium 2 unit.
08-10-16, 01:06 PM
#90
The new microtech have a lot more features than you think including traction control, boost control, data logging, ect.. My microtech does not have those features. Even so, my old out dated one runs better than most of the current competition.
08-10-16, 01:35 PM
#91
The onboard logging on the LT10c, which is the new unit, is an add-on upgrade and only stores 5 minutes of data. Otherwise, you must log directly to a laptop. A bit inconvenient in my opinion.
For the price, there are better options. I would like to know what you mean by
The runnability is dictated by the accuracy of the tune and the setup. If two controllers have the same map resolution, in the Microtechs case 16x16, and they both have equivalent values inputted, the engines should run exactly the same.
The interpolation of many newer controllers is better between cells, and I know that Haltechs have larger maps with better resolution. They should, in theory, run smoother with better transient response, all things being equal.
Spintriangles, who has been asking about these controllers said in his early posts that he had a PowerFC and just bought a LT10. He did not say which LT10, but his concern was mainly with daily driving, track use, and if he was going to be happy with it in the long term.
The answer is very likely yes, but when there are other newer options available, it's a good idea to consider a controller that a person can grow with and end up with more precise control.
For the price, there are better options. I would like to know what you mean by
Even so, my old out dated one runs better than most of the current competition
The runnability is dictated by the accuracy of the tune and the setup. If two controllers have the same map resolution, in the Microtechs case 16x16, and they both have equivalent values inputted, the engines should run exactly the same.
The interpolation of many newer controllers is better between cells, and I know that Haltechs have larger maps with better resolution. They should, in theory, run smoother with better transient response, all things being equal.
Spintriangles, who has been asking about these controllers said in his early posts that he had a PowerFC and just bought a LT10. He did not say which LT10, but his concern was mainly with daily driving, track use, and if he was going to be happy with it in the long term.
The answer is very likely yes, but when there are other newer options available, it's a good idea to consider a controller that a person can grow with and end up with more precise control.
08-13-16, 10:46 AM
#93
Engine, Not Motor
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Never would I say that the Microtech doesn't work. It does work, and works very well for its limited feature set. It's reliable, and can be tuned well enough to make a car drivable by 1980s standards. But here's the thing. Why pay the same price for an ECU with 20% of the features when equivalent money buys you a modern unit? What's the advantage?
A 386 SX/16 runs Microsoft Word 3.0 just fine on Windows 3.1. A Core i7 6700T runs Word 2016 on Windows 7 (Windows 10 is annoying) just fine. Which one would you pay $1000 for? Would you even look at that 386 SX/16 if it was available today? So why look at Microtech?
And to be a little nasty: A $220 Megasquirt 1 w/3.0 board (granted, you are soldering it up yourself!) runs a rotary better than the latest $1200 Microtech could ever dream of. And that's on a 12 x 12 fuel table vs. the Microtech 16 x 16!
My car, a 500HP bridgeported FC, is a dailyish driver running a LT8s. It works fine. But years ago I bumped into the limitations of the Microtech. I want to control 2 cooling fans. I want closed loop AFR control. I want an idle valve to high idle the car when cold and compensate for electrical loads. I want logging of fuel pressure, oil pressure, oil temp. I want engine protection features based on fuel pressure, AFRs tied into datalogging so a log starts anytime there is something odd as well as lighting a CEL. I want smooth interpolation. I want idle maps because idling the bridgeport on the main fuel table is a compromise. I want flex fuel capability. I want tuning software that doesn't suck donkey ***, that actually allows me to save maps! I want extensive datalogging review capabilities and the ability to auto tune the map based on real time AFR output AND offline datalog analysis. A $660 Megasquirt 3 (assembled!) provides all this and more. Well, to be fair, that MS1 provides a good subset of these abilities as well. Or for the same price as the current LT series, I could buy an MS3-Pro.
08-13-16, 01:16 PM
#94
Don't need
I don't need no stinking traction control. The Control is in my right foot. At of all the things listed looks like the only things I would miss is being able to boost different psi in different gears. Man that is kinda of cool. Also controlling fans sounds good. I have temp gauges and so on to monitor engine temps so that I not worried about. Just want to make sure I have a reliable system with a reliable tuner that will allow my car to work properly (haul ***). My tuner is my Mechanic and he is very well respected in the rotary community. Kilitto I saw your video. At what Rom are you getting full boost,what was the full boost and what turbo?
08-13-16, 01:24 PM
#95
For me
Microtech is the choice due to my Mechanic being able to work on my car and tune it. It is really that simple for me. For what I gathered they are much better ecu but I am not a tuner not Mechanic. I am limited to what my Mechanic can do and he does microtech. He makes them work well on many cars in central fl. Many cars pulling good reliableable power coming out his shop. If he was ever to go adoptronics I would switch to that in a blink of an eye though.
08-13-16, 10:42 PM
#96
Your car, your call. We at least tried to help inform you of the choices out there.
You say that your tuner/mechanic is well respected and regarded and that you trust him. That's fine, but I still stand by what I say. If he is not willing to work on any other controller, then I personally think you should look elsewhere.
I know you don't think you need that many features, and that's also fine. Traction control is not the features that are important. You seem to be hung up on that one specific feature.
The larger benefits that Aaron pointed out are superior fuel control, more inputs, idle control, datalogging, and the ability to save and submit maps for review. Load of users on the forum will have a car running, post their logs and a map file, and other users will pick it apart and try and help. You can't do that with a Microtech.
Again, I never said that the Microtech will not work. It works just fine. If you are ok with settling for "just fine". My car will get a newer controller with more inputs and outputs with more features because that is what I want my car to have.
I would at least take Aaron's advice. He has been around for a long time, helped many users, and has a Microtech on his own car. He knows the system very intimately and has laid out in detail what he has encountered.
Just understand from my perspective that you came to ask a question about it, we gave you our input, and in the end stuck your fingers in your ears and said you don't want a better controller for the same cost with more features. Because your tuner said so.
Edit: Also, you said you had a PowerFC in your original post. Did you already pull it out? Why not stick with it? The PowerFC is a better controller than a Microtech in certain respects. Especially since it can run factory twins, if you still have them.
You say that your tuner/mechanic is well respected and regarded and that you trust him. That's fine, but I still stand by what I say. If he is not willing to work on any other controller, then I personally think you should look elsewhere.
I know you don't think you need that many features, and that's also fine. Traction control is not the features that are important. You seem to be hung up on that one specific feature.
The larger benefits that Aaron pointed out are superior fuel control, more inputs, idle control, datalogging, and the ability to save and submit maps for review. Load of users on the forum will have a car running, post their logs and a map file, and other users will pick it apart and try and help. You can't do that with a Microtech.
Again, I never said that the Microtech will not work. It works just fine. If you are ok with settling for "just fine". My car will get a newer controller with more inputs and outputs with more features because that is what I want my car to have.
I would at least take Aaron's advice. He has been around for a long time, helped many users, and has a Microtech on his own car. He knows the system very intimately and has laid out in detail what he has encountered.
Just understand from my perspective that you came to ask a question about it, we gave you our input, and in the end stuck your fingers in your ears and said you don't want a better controller for the same cost with more features. Because your tuner said so.
Edit: Also, you said you had a PowerFC in your original post. Did you already pull it out? Why not stick with it? The PowerFC is a better controller than a Microtech in certain respects. Especially since it can run factory twins, if you still have them.
Last edited by ACR_RX-7; 08-13-16 at 10:54 PM.
08-14-16, 07:40 AM
#97
Not really
The views and facts on this subject have not gone on a def ear. I hear everyone loud and clear. Instead I am very grateful for the info that Aaron and others have game me. The one of the reasons I joined this forum is to get educated and more familiar of the working of my rx7. I have had this rx7 since 98 and have had many horror stories due to poor mechanics,techs and tuners. With this said I finally I have a well respected machanic,tech and tuner. Please don't think that I don't appreciate those members who are trying to help. Like I said before if I had someone I trusted like my Mechanic to do adoptronics it would be a no brainer. Considering I don't I have to go what I believe will be the best option for me at this time. When you have been screwed as much as I have you tend to compromise just a little. By the way this is at no fault of my car it is a great machine but in this area we have a lot of rotary con artist. Many around here say they know but don't know ish blow your motor and you get to eat a rebuild. Maybe ok for a young man with no real responsibilities but a no go for a grown family man with a passion for family and rx7s.
08-14-16, 07:50 AM
#98
To add to my last post. Based on the info gathered I too believe the adoptronics is a more up to date option. I do not knock the ecu nor its tuners. Like I said before carburators vs fuel injection I get it. My decision is not a disrespect to those who chimed in. Just my choice based on my particular situation at this particular time.
08-14-16, 10:32 AM
#99
I get full boost around 3500-4k. Full boost in the car is 20 psi. Turbo size is a 67/65 precision. My car does have an idle valve. When the car is cold or when I turn the a/c on, it will raise the rpm to compensate. I've never had the need to have my map reviewed... But I guess that would be cool if I needed it.
