TougeMonster

iTrader: (1)

Hello all.. so my original motor blew a coolant seal in winter storage (-45 below @ 96,xxx) a few years ago.Im second owner bought with 70,002 miles with all records including all oil changes, gas fill ups, you name it. Even got the window sticker and dealership brochures.Chassis is tip top.A friend of mine gave me a new(used) motor. It lasted 800 miles some how... seized on start up.

This is my only pic of it now(My gf doesnt know how to work buttons)


This is how its suppose to be (exept this is an SE)


So now i have started a rebuild on the stock engine(I think she got mad at me for tossin in a used motor).

I should be able to re use the hard seals. But im not sure about 3 piece seals on a half bridge. Any insight? Im not sure they are even 3 piece but i am assuming so because its an S4

Im trying to run a stock ECU as judge ito has done it and I have seen how fast it was
(RIP) He ran to my knowledge stock primary inj @460cc and S4 turbo secondary@ 550cc

I have found no more info as of yet, I PM'd him tho

Mods so far i have done 20k miles on this setup to try to learn chassis dynamics at the limit of grip with low power
Tein drift spec coil overs
AWR lateral rods
AWR rear control arm sperical bearing
AWR camber links
Racing Beat DTSS eliminators
Poly bush A arms
Racing beat sway bar end links
AC/PS/smog delete (finding elec pw steering pump)
CAI off a ford diesel (still not enough airflow)
Hawk Hps+ pads (suck)
Short shifter
S5 tranny
S5 tails

Stuff im adding while i build(Already have, or free ish)
I have a full stainless dual roadrace setup im running paralell for about 113-118 inches( not sure how to tune this yet)
Mazdatrix heim joint endlinks
Mazdartix bumpsteer/angle tie rod ends
Tanabe Sustec strut bar
Atkins cnc Aux sleeves
Stich weld
Chassis/engine harness diet
Sound deadening removal (keeping ugly maroon interior cus it makes my tornado grey silver look PIMP)
S5 bumpers and trim(keepin it black)
Shimmed LSD


Stuff Im adding later
Adjustable sway bars
Heim joint ball joints
Full cage and Huge diet
Fuel cell and auxiliaries to support
NA Rtek?
Gilmer belt drive
Crown Vics
Downforce?
80s Boatflake gunmetal paint?

K so enough of all that, gettin down to business.?
Can i use stock ECU and 3 piece seals?
Would swtiching the direction of a worn in apex seal towards the center iron mess stuff up becuase it was bedded in rotating the opposite direction.

And finally does longer piping (118") boost low end or high RPM? Or shorter (113")
Im shooting for a Helmholtz resonance effect at around 5500 rpm

S1sevenNZ

Cool as, Put up pics as you progress, As for the stock 3 piece 2mm steel apex seals, Ive have used them turned around in a half bridge motor, Now use them the correct way in my PP block, I cant say that it's ok to do this or that it will be reliable as both my motors have only done very low k's, But yes they do run like this (search my you tube vids). Be iteresting to here other people's point of views on this tho. Good luck.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

i think flipping 3 piece seals around should be fine, but you're assuming a lot to reuse 100,000mile seals in the first place.

i think if you measure the clearances you'll find that the seals are either worn out, or just barely in spec, and in that case they should be replaced.

TougeMonster

iTrader: (1)

Seals are well within spec. They only had about 86,xxx. Not to much i spose. Ill take pics as i build and vids when its done... if it works with the stock ecu. Im runnin 550 cc secondaries and rtek

ryan2949

iTrader: (2)

Front what I've been reading, most rebuilders say to avoid using 3 piece seals at all cost.

bumpstart

i cant see the issue on a half bridge without angle cuts , if you turn the seal so the wedge end is at the BP ..

however would be better to just buy some decent aftermarket apex seals
if you go the goopy or the atkins you will get 2 piece,, with a longer wedge end piece -
these will allow you to bridge at both ends if you wish,, and the long wedge top allows you to angle cut the housing without issues

those mentioned brands are not expensive
and ive just seen a goopy at 2000 km in ( on a full BP ) and its doing very well so far for minimal wear on slot and housing

you should always wait till you can check your rotor slots before you buy your seals
,, in the past extreme wear would / could/ still may push you to machining and 3mm seals
however the goopy option can come as 2mm OS.. and so allow most to correct moderate wear at home

peejay

Don't bridge port a 6-port.

It sucks.

Starfox07

I agree. Do not bridge. If I were you, I would do a small street port, pull the 6 port sleeves, and spend your time and money on a highly developed intake and exhaust system. This is where 6 ports shine.

joeylyrech

iTrader: (11)

Replace apex seals(goopy,ra black or atkins)
Why risk something when the motor is already apart?Do a nice rebuild......
oil mods
turbo oil pump
third gen corner seals spring
solid corner seals
oem apex seal springs
oem side seals and springs
thermal pallet
FD oil regulators
all bearings
If you do build a bridge you have 2 push it higher 2 stay on the power band and is gonna pull past the stock port rev range that is why it should be a solid build.
Dont use six port plates,use 4 port turbo plates and the na rotors.

joeylyrech

iTrader: (11)

No stock ecu!
STANDALONE
The amount of timing needed for a bridge to run and idle propertly is incredible.My bridge idle at 32 degree of advance and 15 split!that cant be done with a stock ecu.

peejay

I idle my bridge at about 5-10 degrees. It's way happier with LESS timing, not more.

Less timing and idle the engine on the secondary throttle plates so the bridges don't see as much vacuum at idle. This requires removing the stop screw and putting in a longer one - I tap the hole to 8-32 so I can use commonly available hardware.

This also vastly improves part throttle drivability. Drives basically like a stocker.

Unfortunately, if you are doing a 6-port, it also makes power like a stocker too.

TougeMonster

iTrader: (1)

Well so far Ive decided Im just going to build a street port AND a bridge port, since i have two motors.
Unfortunately the turbo irons i can get have sat for the past 10 years and i doubt ill be able to use them for anything(going to try to snag it anyways for drive train)

For the bridgy(I have most of these parts already)
secondary bridge only(small port, big ish eyebrow) Im using a pineapple SP template for the aux ports and primary ports
Im going with OEM 2 piece seals and OEM corner seals with FD springs
Turbo oil pump, thermal pellet, shimmed front cover regulator, crushed main oil regulator
smoothed intake tracts, turbo exhaust sleeves,Smoothed TB,Atkins cnc 6 ports
Im also doin the water jacket mod by the plugs, and alot of ducting for the cooling system

Rb road race exhaust collected at 113" to 118" I want power to come sooner in rpm but Im not
sure if i go shorter or longer to get the helmholtz resonance effect at lower rpm

I still cant spring for stand alone.( I still need to save for apex seals)
Ill try to get an rtek 2.0(for now)

I really only need it to work to get it to the body shop and exhaust shop. I still need to find what the dyno guys around here can tune before I decide what ecu I will purchase this winter while its in storage.
In the mean time there's a electrical engineer in town that build his saab ecu from scratch and modded my buddies S5 TII ecu to get rid of the elec omp limp mode bs.
So i believe he will have some insight of how to tune the stock ecu a little

The street port will use all the old parts I have within spec and will not buy anything I dont have to for it except for maybe fd corner seal springs, and like oil control ring springs, and apex seal springs.

This way if the bridge doesnt work at all, I'll swap in the streetport and find a 4 port i can use.
The only 4 port i have now is out of a 74 repu (13b) and I doubt i can even get it apart.
And if the bridgy does work Yay me (I'll post dyno figures) then I'll have a spare motor

Build starts in two ish weeks (waiting for my garden to finish before i trailer my **** back to my dads "shop")

This is my first rotary rebuild, Ive only built 22/20r, 4age(all stock rebuilds), and a 600hp single carb chevy 327 drag killa

Wish me luck,And thanks for all the help guys, keep throwin info at me, Im still learning

peejay

This is exactly what I did initially on my GSL-SE engine.

It sucked.

When I redid the coolant seals, I opened up the eyebrows higher, into the aux ports. It still sucked but it sucked less.

TougeMonster

iTrader: (1)

How big did you make the eyebrow? I was shootin for like 6-7mm.
I might extend the secondary as per the pineapple port, but obviously wont port towards housing as I need that room for the eyebrow.

Just so ya know im not trying to make a bunch of hp or anything. Im more so just experimenting with 6 ports cus theyre all over and can be had from cheap to free. If it doesnt work ill just put in a stock or street port.

Has anyone tried a full bridge 6 port with those 2 piece goopy seals made for full bridge?

I'm also building a 83 for a friend,(all it has now is fuel system RB intake 45 dcoe on stock ports) he intends to rally. So i wanna give him one of my motors, or bridge his. Need a bigger carb, 48 for bridge i think(12a)

peejay

Nothing wrong with experimenting!

I can't measure the eyebrows since they're still in the car, until tomorrow/today anyway, if my friend ever gets back so I can assemble the 4-port.

I CAN tell you that I made a bridge 5mm wide from the original port opening line, and the eyebrow went to within 1mm of the coolant seal (GSL-SE engine). Maybe 8-9mm. I don't have the huevos to cut into a coolant seal, yet. I like long-lived engines, the one in the car has been there for maybe 30,000mi and it's finally worn out.

ArmyOfOne

iTrader: (12)

I did one back in the day, full bridge 6 port on a Holley 600 and 2 msd made 225@9700.

TougeMonster

iTrader: (1)

I have another question.. would a stock fuel pump be enough to feed 550cc secondaries? I should only be on the low end of 2xxhp. or would a stock TII or supra pump suffice? I dont really want to raise the pressure using a walbro, and theyre loud

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

if you chance Liter/hour to CC/minute, you'll find the NA pump can feed exactly 4x460cc injectors, so a T2 pump would be a good idea.

however the Rtek lets you drive the injectors a little harder, so you probably wont need the pump or the injectors

joeylyrech

iTrader: (11)

yo

TougeMonster

iTrader: (1)

Just found out the stock pump flows 1300cc/min. I hear it only does 65% duty cycle on stock the computer. It's works out to be 1313cc\min with 550cc secondaries

TougeMonster

iTrader: (1)

Porting is almost done.

Apex seals on the way (RA classics with oem Mazda springs)

Porting my front and rear irons last in case I decide not to bridge for some reason

I have a build thread under the same title as this one. Just in he build thread on second gen.
Not sure if I can link it from my phone
Should be done by Halloween with my 1313cc of fuel. Evil rebirth

Anyone wanna trade me a road race header without aux port pick up tubes for one with them?

TougeMonster

iTrader: (1)

84stock

iTrader: (5)

I would keep the aux port functional...

TougeMonster

iTrader: (1)

Yea I am I just haven't installed the actuators yet
I have cnc Atkins aux sleeves
I just have to weld up a back pressure pick up once I get my presilencer
Header is hear wrapped now, thinkin about making a heat shield as well

dkwasherexd

iTrader: (8)

I would go full standalone.. Get the timming at about 15trailing 20leading, biggers injectors too.. Was tunning a large street ported 4 port 13b and maxed out the 550 at less than 8000rpm...