individual throttle bodys
03-06-14, 10:25 AM
#51
In that case, you will likely have to fab up your own standoff assembly, and either have a rail made or go super old school and attach individual fuel lines to each injector. When embarking on my itb build I intended on running staged injectors, with my secondaries in a standoff form like you're intending as well. I built the air box and the standoff tower and cut down a MK3 supra fuel rail (the injector spread on the supra is just a little narrower that the barrel spread of my weber. Ultimately, for simplicity and minimalism, I decided to just run a single pair of 1000cc injectors in the stock primary spot
Are there any issues in running just large primary injectors? I.E. Drivability, tuning, timing issues? if there is not and I will see around the same results with staged then I may go the route you did. It would save me some time and money.
03-06-14, 11:37 AM
#52
the older fat body denso/bosch EV11 injectors like the stock FB/FC injector will work, but the larger injectors arent ideal for idling as the older style injector doesnt work as well at low pulsewidths. But the newer Bosch EV14's like "injector dynamic" and "fuel injector clinic" sell, can handle it perfectly fine. I know of a handful of turbo hondas in my area that run like an everyday car, start, idle, cruise and race with 4x 1200cc EV14 injectors
03-06-14, 12:32 PM
#54
No need to overdo it.
In an NA 6-port build you don't even need huge primary only injectors as you only have to match fuel to the airflow available.
Two old school 720cc or new 1,000cc injectors should be good for over 200 @ wheels.
I ran my TII NA using just the 720cc primaries and it worked fine. Of course it idled fine and ran at low loads fine, just like they do in all the turbo applications where they are used as primaries.
On my turbo ITB set up I plan to use just two ID 2,000s in the primary positions for simplicity. I have heard this has already been done on the Adaptronic plug and play for the FD which I plan to use.
Adding fuel injectors to the throttle bodies is where ITBs get expensive and complex- skip that step.
If you want max power, add additional injectors in the "shower" position in the airbox. In my turbo application I will be using water injection instead of "shower" injectors for the same purpose.
In an NA 6-port build you don't even need huge primary only injectors as you only have to match fuel to the airflow available.
Two old school 720cc or new 1,000cc injectors should be good for over 200 @ wheels.
I ran my TII NA using just the 720cc primaries and it worked fine. Of course it idled fine and ran at low loads fine, just like they do in all the turbo applications where they are used as primaries.
On my turbo ITB set up I plan to use just two ID 2,000s in the primary positions for simplicity. I have heard this has already been done on the Adaptronic plug and play for the FD which I plan to use.
Adding fuel injectors to the throttle bodies is where ITBs get expensive and complex- skip that step.
If you want max power, add additional injectors in the "shower" position in the airbox. In my turbo application I will be using water injection instead of "shower" injectors for the same purpose.
03-06-14, 01:33 PM
#55
Old [Sch|F]ool
You're not going to make 200whp with two 720s unless you have a really optimistic dyno. I have a pair of 680s and I'm maxing them out (as in, they go static) and I'm not near 200whp.
When I had a street port, which is less efficient than a bridge port, I was hitting 95% duty cycle at 170whp on a Dynojet.
When I had a street port, which is less efficient than a bridge port, I was hitting 95% duty cycle at 170whp on a Dynojet.
03-06-14, 07:26 PM
#57
Old [Sch|F]ool
My gut feeling is that the EV14s won't fit without machining the rail down since the FC lower O-ring sits ON and not IN the injector cup. On the other hand, someone's probably found a way to do it...
Economy is fine. I noticed that tuning was much easier with independent throttles vs. the stock manifold. The computer I use does not do sequential injection, just batch fire, so I *think* what was happening with the plenum was the injectors would fire once per revolution, while one port was flowing backwards and the other forwards, and so to get a good burnable mix in the leaner rotor it would require a richer mixture overall. Drivability and fuel economy went UP with the independent throttles even though I went to a far more aggressive port than I'd used before.
Your experience may vary if you are using a computer that will do sequential injection, especially if you can tune injector timing,
Economy is fine. I noticed that tuning was much easier with independent throttles vs. the stock manifold. The computer I use does not do sequential injection, just batch fire, so I *think* what was happening with the plenum was the injectors would fire once per revolution, while one port was flowing backwards and the other forwards, and so to get a good burnable mix in the leaner rotor it would require a richer mixture overall. Drivability and fuel economy went UP with the independent throttles even though I went to a far more aggressive port than I'd used before.
Your experience may vary if you are using a computer that will do sequential injection, especially if you can tune injector timing,
03-06-14, 08:50 PM
#58
most places that sell the EV14 based injector usually ask the application, or o-ring size, and give/sell machined aluminum tops to make them fit the application. They will fit where any top feed injector was before
as seen here
http://injectordynamics.com/wp-conte...ll_no_logo.jpg
as seen here
http://injectordynamics.com/wp-conte...ll_no_logo.jpg
03-08-14, 09:40 AM
#59
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i was thinking of staying sane with it, like 6-8psi, so i might have been in the ballpark?
i didn't do it, because the car was dirty
03-19-14, 09:51 PM
#61
Hi I'm doing this.
Racing beat upper side draft
Early efi ford f-e-bronco series twin 51mm throttlebody
Machine my own adaptor plate (center to center bore is about 9mm difference)
Megasquirt fuel only
ID750 primary only injectors.
Engine will be a s5 n/a with a bridged tii center plate and large street 6 port end plates with functional aux port (see if it'll work lol) gsl-se ignition
Entire setup for me personally shouldn't cost much since I have nearly everything as is.
The carb bolt pattern Is perfect for me to make an adaptor since neither will conflict each other and simple counter sunk cap screws and port matching. Could upgrade to 65mm by bbk but I think that is overkill for a half bridge, maybe a full...
Racing beat upper side draft
Early efi ford f-e-bronco series twin 51mm throttlebody
Machine my own adaptor plate (center to center bore is about 9mm difference)
Megasquirt fuel only
ID750 primary only injectors.
Engine will be a s5 n/a with a bridged tii center plate and large street 6 port end plates with functional aux port (see if it'll work lol) gsl-se ignition
Entire setup for me personally shouldn't cost much since I have nearly everything as is.
The carb bolt pattern Is perfect for me to make an adaptor since neither will conflict each other and simple counter sunk cap screws and port matching. Could upgrade to 65mm by bbk but I think that is overkill for a half bridge, maybe a full...
03-20-14, 11:12 AM
#62
The ID injectors can run very high pressure (123psi for ID750?), so you can safely more than double base fuel pressure to make sure you are not hp limited by injector capacity.
With the weird mismatch of port timing between primary and secondary/aux ports you might do much better with a manifold that combines the primary runners together and the secondary runners together (like stock FD, but shorter) instead of primary to secondary.
You may get dynamic interference pulses between runners instead of dynamic inertial supercharging pulses.
The primary to secondary manifolds (like RB side draft) *should* be set up for dynamic effect with stock or same (if copied from 4 port manifold) port timing.
Or, go ITB with a Weber manifold and 4150 throttle body.
With the 4150 set up you could even play with porting a plenum (non ITB now) into the primaries (taking out the runner divider) to shorten the runner length as modded 1st gen guys do.
You should be able to find the formulas for runner length by rpm and port timing on this forum.
Remember, flow need not be divided/combined for the runner lengths- just the path an acoustic wave will travel. A large change in volume or crossover to the other runner will mark the end of the runner. Look at S5 VDI or RX-8 intake path as an example if you don't immediately grasp this concept.
With the weird mismatch of port timing between primary and secondary/aux ports you might do much better with a manifold that combines the primary runners together and the secondary runners together (like stock FD, but shorter) instead of primary to secondary.
You may get dynamic interference pulses between runners instead of dynamic inertial supercharging pulses.
The primary to secondary manifolds (like RB side draft) *should* be set up for dynamic effect with stock or same (if copied from 4 port manifold) port timing.
Or, go ITB with a Weber manifold and 4150 throttle body.
With the 4150 set up you could even play with porting a plenum (non ITB now) into the primaries (taking out the runner divider) to shorten the runner length as modded 1st gen guys do.
You should be able to find the formulas for runner length by rpm and port timing on this forum.
Remember, flow need not be divided/combined for the runner lengths- just the path an acoustic wave will travel. A large change in volume or crossover to the other runner will mark the end of the runner. Look at S5 VDI or RX-8 intake path as an example if you don't immediately grasp this concept.
03-25-14, 02:34 PM
#64
The most I will ever port the motor if and when it blows, is either a large street port or half-bridge. With the Itb setup I have (twin 48's, trumpets up to 55mm and star mazda racing manifold) what is my best bet for ECU? I am leaning towards MegaSquirt as it controls plenty for the price.
Peejay, what are you running for an ecu that doesn't run staged injection?
Peejay, what are you running for an ecu that doesn't run staged injection?
03-27-14, 01:10 PM
#66
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The most I will ever port the motor if and when it blows, is either a large street port or half-bridge. With the Itb setup I have (twin 48's, trumpets up to 55mm and star mazda racing manifold) what is my best bet for ECU? I am leaning towards MegaSquirt as it controls plenty for the price.
Peejay, what are you running for an ecu that doesn't run staged injection?
Peejay, what are you running for an ecu that doesn't run staged injection?
03-31-14, 09:06 PM
#70
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Does that mean that my ITB's are not ITB'ed enough? I have a IDA manifold and each "barrel" splits and feeds both ports to it's rotor. It was the term "every runner" that has me wondering if I've been thinking of this wrong.
03-31-14, 09:52 PM
#71
Rotary Freak
I get instant response and fairly broad power curve with 4 throats and 4 runners. Of course your experiences may be different, but I used the IPRA cars as a model when I built mine and I am now extremely pleased with the setup.
Eric
04-01-14, 10:52 AM
#72
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From actual racing experience, the "IDA" type throttlebodies have worked just fine for both half bridge and full bridge motors. So long and you're not sharing a runner between rotors, you should be just fine.
04-04-14, 12:39 PM
#73
Old [Sch|F]ool
01-03-15, 11:52 AM
#74
Can anyone post any dyno results for running primaries only? Or any videos of idle? I am finalizing the last few pieces of my set up and I still can't decide whether to run primary only or run staged. I would need to fab up a fuel rail and decide on secondary place to if I went with the latter.
04-28-15, 09:18 PM
#75
BRINGING IT BACK 
So, at what point is the NA fuel pump maxed out? Also, is it required to run an aftermarket fuel pressure regulator (with stock primary only rail) or can the stock one suffice up until a certain power level? I have acquired nearly all the parts needed for my setup and fueling still remains a concern.
So, at what point is the NA fuel pump maxed out? Also, is it required to run an aftermarket fuel pressure regulator (with stock primary only rail) or can the stock one suffice up until a certain power level? I have acquired nearly all the parts needed for my setup and fueling still remains a concern.
