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Old 08-22-08, 02:55 PM   #1
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How much HP from a NA 13 PP

I have heard many horsepower numbers over the years on what a 13PP makes. Anywhere from 300 - 350 depending on intake, exhaust, timing, etc.

Is 350 engine hp realistic if you run rx8 rotors, the correct exhaust, and a programable FI like MOTEC with large enough air horns? To keep this from getting out of control, I would prefer if the peak hp would come at 9500rpm or less with 10,000 rev limit and be able to last for a period of close to 24hrs assuming there aren't overheating or lubrication issues.

Is this possible? Has anyone heard of making more than 350HP? Thinking of moving up a class but would like to keep it a NA 13B. Not sure if I can be competitive if I can't make 290+whp.
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Old 08-22-08, 04:40 PM   #2
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Jesus Padilla made close to 400 hp N/A 13B PP. Was a drag car in the 9s. Everything is possible... how much money and time do you want to spend?

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Old 08-24-08, 03:14 PM   #3
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I wonder how he made so much horsepower? Maybe the Periph. Port opening was made larger than standard? It would be nice to see his dyno results, and know what he is using.
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Old 08-24-08, 03:42 PM   #4
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i may be wrong but alcohol...... someone correct me if its not true
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Old 08-24-08, 03:54 PM   #5
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Methanol, just checked out his sight. My problem is that the engine needs to last a season before rebuild.

My fuel mix for a 5 gal. jug is: 4 gallons 91 octane/1 gallon 103 octane with 2-3 ounces 2 stroke oil.

I've considered running straight 103 octane so I can advance the timing further. I would need to install a knock sensor, I've heard carbon apex seals don't respond well to detonation.
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Old 08-24-08, 04:16 PM   #6
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I'm wondering if someone could use exotic metals (titanium or other) to strengthen and lighten the ecentric shaft and rotors in order to run a higher rpm with larger ports?

Would it possible to have a PP and simultaneously have a small sleeved port on the end/intermediate housings that could open up at a specified rpm? Similar to the 6 port (power port) motors did.

Lets say a well built PP makes peak horsepower around 9300 RPM. What if you had extra ports that could open at 9000 rpm to push peak hp to 10,000 rpm+ with a 11,000 rpm limit. The extra ports could increase volume and maybe even extend duration depending on their position. The motor would be expensive initially but may be able to put out 400 hp with 103 octance and still be reliable. (25 hours)
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Old 08-24-08, 10:30 PM   #7
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1. E-Shaft - As for exotic metals, some companies have done eccentric shafts out of different materials. I think that the most successful would be the 2 piece 2 rotor design though, with the center support bearing for high rpms. There are claims of the Australians using these in races buzzing 12.5k rpms on downshifts with no ill effects.

2. Rotors - A company in the US is trying to fully develop aluminum rotors. They have a small video of a NA running with them, but dont know how well they will actually hold up. Lightened rotors have been done and proven to be reliable.

3. PP and side port - People have done it, they just did it the other way. Their design was to use side ports (4 port) and then open up a smaller PP at a higher rpm to help with peak hp. They call this a semi-PP.

4. PP power - A PP power range is determined just like any other port, by its size/shape/flow.

Lastly, Some other things that I would look into if I were you, and had the money to do so of course... How about some of the things that were included in the Mazda Le Mans 787b? For example, Cermet coatings to reduce friction and wear, as well as increase power and gas mileage? How about the late trailing spark plug (3rd spark plug per rotor) for power and fuel consumption? Ceramic apex seals to help with better sealing and to reduce wear? Using 10:1+ compression rotors (rx-8 rotors modified for non renesis seals?)?

Just a couple things I seem to see be overlooked many times, mainly because of their cost however...

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Old 08-25-08, 11:39 AM   #8
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Chris,
Thanks for the info. This winter I'm planning on using the 10:1 compression rotors lightened and balanced when I have my motor rebuilt.

I've been debating on getting away from the carbon apex seals to switch to ceramic. I've been told the carbon apex seals are light which help in sealing during high rpm. Ceramic seals have a lubricating property once heated up reducing wear, but do they also seal real well at high rpm? Probably do since they are considered the best for NA cars.

A third spark plug would be interesting, but would probably be to costly for the gain. I currently use iridium spark plugs that are replace every 4 hours on the motor.

I like the 2 piece 2 rotor design you told me about. Makes sense to be supported with a center bearing for high rpm. Does anyone sell any of these items over the counter? Links? Thanks again.

I'm considering moving to the next higher racing class, but would need close to a reliable 300WHP to be competitive. Trying to stay 2 rotor NA.
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Old 08-25-08, 12:28 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSLSE-YA View Post
Chris
I'm considering moving to the next higher racing class, but would need close to a reliable 300WHP to be competitive. Trying to stay 2 rotor NA.
Only 300whp!
You don't need any exotic stuff for only 300whp!.
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Old 08-25-08, 10:05 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by crispeed View Post
Only 300whp!
You don't need any exotic stuff for only 300whp!.
Sevensonly.com has been getting between 284-294WHP with their 13B PP carbuerated. Tripoint told me they use to have a Solo II second gen PP making 269 WHP.

What kind of setup intake/exhaust would you run in order to make 300+WHP from a nonturbo 13B. It needs to last about 25 hours before rebuild.
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Old 08-25-08, 10:30 PM   #11
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I agree in thinking that for only 300 you wouldnt need almost if not any exotic stuff, and could probably stay away from most of what I had listed. I was speaking more for the higher end of the hp goal that you mentioned (almost 400?). For craps and giggles though, here is a few link to the part I mentioned...

E-Shaft

http://www.rotorsportsracing.com/per...ru2pcshaft.htm

I have heard that the shaft is actually made by Jeff Bruce from New Zealand, you may be able to obtain it cheaper directly from him, I just dont know how to contact him.

I have heard JHB performance can/does do the 3rd spark plug per rotor and cermet coatings as well as thermal barrier coatings. I have also seen mixed reviews about them, I would personally give them a try though.


I have always been told/read/observed that ceramic apex seals will seal just as well as any others at high rpms, if not better. They also have reduced wear as mentioned.

I dont think that making 300whp would be much of a problem, but I do think that making 300whp with some kind of mid range power/torque would be more difficult.

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Old 08-26-08, 01:05 AM   #12
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Thanks,
I will check it out.

I can sacrifice some midrange and torque. I'm running 4.88 rear end gears and have a 5.12 for back up. I also am running a close ratio 5 speed gear box.

I believe what people are telling me about making 300whp easily without making it an exotic engine, but I still haven't heard how reliable the motors are.

Understand that I run in the summer at high desert tracks like Willow Springs, and Buttonwillow. I do have an alluminum radiator, but I'm still not sure if a 300whp 13B NA will be able to handle 24 hours of racing between 7000-10,000rpm, sometimes in +110F heat.
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Old 09-08-08, 11:16 AM   #13
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Here are pictures before leaving for nationals. The car will probably never look this good again.
Attached Thumbnails
How much HP from a NA 13 PP-whitey-002.jpg   How much HP from a NA 13 PP-whitey-005.jpg   How much HP from a NA 13 PP-whitey-010.jpg   How much HP from a NA 13 PP-whitey-016.jpg   How much HP from a NA 13 PP-whitey-011.jpg  

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Old 11-21-08, 07:32 PM   #14
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my friends richie's gt2 scca after conversion to fuel injection all conventional parts carbon seal making over 290whp on a mustang dyno(add 10%for dyno jet numbers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8GqTiHMr2Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMph1...eature=related
these are built up housing that i ported with a fabbed pipe intake and twm throttle body and haltech e8
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Old 11-21-08, 09:46 PM   #15
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I like how your neighbor has the exact same truck, pretty funny actually! Any way I saw your car at the tripoint booth at 7 stock adn was quite overwhelmed it's just beautiful... Anyway I would talk with crispeed his shop has built some seriously fast, high HP cars.
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Old 11-27-08, 02:53 PM   #16
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I like how your neighbor has the exact same truck, pretty funny actually! Any way I saw your car at the tripoint booth at 7 stock adn was quite overwhelmed it's just beautiful... Anyway I would talk with crispeed his shop has built some seriously fast, high HP cars.
Thanks, tripoint is building another bridgeport motor. They made a fixture/template, this allows the porting to be more precise and repeatable. The port is slightly larger than before. We are also running an rx8 eshaft, RB superlight rotors, 2mm ceramic apex/corner seals, balanced rotating assembly. This motor should be strong. Also moving to a dry sump and running the expansion chamber exhaust from PiRSQ. Can't wait to see what kind of HP we will make on the dynojet.
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Old 11-28-08, 12:55 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by GSLSE-YA View Post
Thanks, tripoint is building another bridgeport motor. They made a fixture/template, this allows the porting to be more precise and repeatable. The port is slightly larger than before. We are also running an rx8 eshaft, RB superlight rotors, 2mm ceramic apex/corner seals, balanced rotating assembly. This motor should be strong. Also moving to a dry sump and running the expansion chamber exhaust from PiRSQ. Can't wait to see what kind of HP we will make on the dynojet.
Sounds good. What is your fuel/intake set up? Carb or FI?
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Old 11-28-08, 05:52 PM   #18
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Running stock 3rd gen intake manifolds and throttle body with MOTEC FI. I will probably switch to the short intake manifold with dual 55mm throttle body (FI downdraft style) offered from tweakit performance in australia. Won't be till summer 2009 though. I'm hoping to make around 240whp on the dynojet with the current intake setup.
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Old 11-28-08, 07:00 PM   #19
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300 rwhp is not uncommon here in nz with a PP 13b.

Normal setup is usually 13bpp with 51ida carb making around 280-290hp atw with the injected ones going to 300-310hp, nothing really special

cross drilled e-shaft, extra windows in the bearings with s5 NA ROTORS (their weight seems to make got solid power up high, compared to rx8 ones tappering off)

biggest problem for you is getting the right size pp to make the power where you want it. What does anyone think? 44mm?
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Old 11-28-08, 08:04 PM   #20
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After what i have heard from they guy that is building my 4 rotor this winter. Hi's HP numbers with 13b pp is as follows. About 290-295hp with carburated and 330+hp with fuel injection. When it comes to power on a PP engine the higer u rev it the more power u get. If u increase it to lets say 11 000 rpm u will get more power. To do this u need a 2 piece eshaft, lightend rotors, ceramic apex seals and every thing perfectly balanced. Then this is doable. Stock rotors and steel seals works up to about 8500 rpm. Then u need something.

A freinds stock 12a has been running at about 10500 rpm limit for 2 years now, and it's still going strong It's beeing opend up now and bridge portet. It just had a small streetport.

So it all depends on what kind of money u want to put in the car. Oh and on a NA engine the fuel is not that important. In the old days they preferd lower octane. Right now i don't remember why, since im quite tierd and have been to a party and had alittle alcohol

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Old 11-29-08, 12:24 AM   #21
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300 rwhp is not uncommon here in nz with a PP 13b.

Normal setup is usually 13bpp with 51ida carb making around 280-290hp atw with the injected ones going to 300-310hp, nothing really special

cross drilled e-shaft, extra windows in the bearings with s5 NA ROTORS (their weight seems to make got solid power up high, compared to rx8 ones tappering off)

biggest problem for you is getting the right size pp to make the power where you want it. What does anyone think? 44mm?
51ida carbs are too small for a 13bpp potential. If you want to make some real power the TerminatorII 62mm IDA carb is where it's at.
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Old 11-29-08, 09:05 PM   #22
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Most shops have been telling me 270-285whp with carb and 295whp with FI. Most guys making over 300whp, (usually drag racers) are running alcohol and 32* timing with special tuned intakes and exhausts. (Mustang dyno results)

Steven believes he can tune a Fuel injected 13B PP with 91 Octane and his expansion chamber exhaust to make around 320-325whp on a mustang dyno.
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Old 11-29-08, 10:02 PM   #23
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That brings up a point to consider, different dynos measure different size hp, so if you were to take the same car at the same conditions on different dynos, the readings will be different, even if it's making the same hp. So while one shop might tell you a higher number, their hp might be smaller than the other shop, giving you much the same power overall.
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Old 11-29-08, 11:37 PM   #24
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That brings up a point to consider, different dynos measure different size hp, so if you were to take the same car at the same conditions on different dynos, the readings will be different, even if it's making the same hp. So while one shop might tell you a higher number, their hp might be smaller than the other shop, giving you much the same power overall.
Dyno numbers really don't mean squat anyways. The real test is at the track. You can have all the horsepower and torque but if you don't get it down on the pavement then it does no good. Horsepower #'s is a reletively small part in whole complete package to get to the end of the track.
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Old 12-01-08, 01:17 PM   #25
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I have used a dynopak and an SAE corrected dynojet. The dynopak had higher hp figures than the dynojet (around 10hp). I've heard the mustang dyno is the most conservative but haven't used one.

Example is assuming same motor and rough estimates from what I have learned.

Mustang dyno: 200whp
Dynojet: 215whp
Dynopak: 225whp

The dynopak does not use rollers, this makes it more consistent in measuring power, the others will vary depending on wheel and tire setup. I had goodyear slicks on the car using the dynojet which ate up considerable hp when compared to a street tire. I gained 5whp just by upping the tire pressure from 18psi to 30psi.
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Old 12-01-08, 01:17 PM
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