Turblown

iTrader: (12)

I have been working with aftermarket ecu's for over 6 years now. I have always wonder why the majority of us with street cars have a need for a " tuner". Lets face it, its a real hassal when every time there is a change to the car, you have to go back and get your ecu re-tuned to be near optimal conditions. Those of us with shops like it, because we get to sting you with another couple hundred dollar fee.

Lately we installed a To4 on Stylemon's FC. This would absolutely require a re-tune with most ecu's. We jumped in his car, checked to make sure the lambda feedback was on, and rolled into the boost. Well guess what, car was good to go. No re-tune required. I have always wonder with computer technology as far as it is today, why do we need human interaction between a wide-band interface and the ecu. A lot of cheaper ecu's offer this, but this closed loop tuning is only for light throttle, or cruise condition with narrow-band o2 sensors. Now sure you cannot extract maximum power from a vehicle with a set target lambda table without someone who is familiar with tuning. However most street cars are no where near this. I have checked the " tunes " of most of this forum's tuners, almost everyone plays it safe. This ecu replaces the need for this. I have heard that Paul from Yawpower is also working on ecu software that will automatically recalc you base fuel map based on the lambda correction tables too, making the process even easier.

There are a lot of other reasons to get a Motec too, mill spec wiring for starters. If the wiring isn't insulated properly from corrosion, you're ecu won't get the proper signal from its sensors, or the sensors won't get the correct reference voltage. Even a tiny drop in resistance will chance the signal and the car won't run correctly. The software of even the cheaper Motec models is quite impressive compared to your run of the mill ecu's. You can setup map corrections based on egts, and many other auxiliary sensors. You can make map corrections based on gears, ever notice how afrs will change based on gears even though load points are the same? How about complete map triming? I have yet to do it, but I also understand we can control auxiliary injection just like the controllers sold with most systems. You can also change load points with this ecu, do you want 700/800/900/1000 rpms load points to get a much smoother idle? Well simple just make the changes. How about half a point changes in timing? How about complete control for trailing maps?

Now I don't claim to be a big tuner, or an ecu expert. I have however tuned quite a few rx7s, and this is by far the best ecu I have ever used.

Evil Aviator

I am surprised that the TO4 didn't change the volumetric efficiency due to the different turbine wheel. What turbo was on the car before?

Human tuners are required for aftermarket ECU's because current circuitry is not fast enough to tune via AFR real time, and none of the affordable aftermarket ECU's have long-term AI learning like factory ECU's. Also, AFR is not necessarily the best way to tune for performance, although it is great for tuning for economy.

Another reason to get a Motec is support. I have gotten better support from Motec representatives for my Wolf EMS than I have from Wolf AUS.

As for the wiring, you can use mil-spec wiring on any EMS. I just think that most of the people on this forum don't want to spend $400-$1,200 on their wiring harness.

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

thanks bro, there I am still new at tuning, and have seen Haltech in action, but have only actually used MoTeC so it's hard for me to compare all the specific features.

That ECU is pretty slick though...

I had a mod'd S5 turbo. And we did have to touch up the base fuel map. But right off the bat, we got it, started the car, and in closed loop, the corrections were made based off the Lambda table.

The MoTeC harness comes standard with mil spec. Support has been great all around on this ECU.

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

The engines VE did change, it was making roughly 36% more power based on fuel consumption. Thats my point, the circuitry is fast enough on this ecu. More than fast enough for the power levels of 90% of people on here.

Honestly if you're going to take shortcuts in wiring, the ems etc, might as well get a carburator. I know you probably know this, but carburators are so much cheaper than efi, super easy to tune, and offer great WOT performance.

RETed

Autronic had this for a while now.
Haltech just released a beta-testing version of their auto-tune recently.
I believe AEM also does this, but I don't have any direct experience with their crap.

As for the "requirement" of auto-tune...if you're willing to trust your car to a ~$100 sensor, that's your choice.
Personally, I tune via EGT's primarily, and I don't need a wide-band to tune fuel maps.

As for why more people aren't using it?
PRICE.
Last time I checked (and this is a few years old, so it might've changed by now), there is a significant jump in price versus most of the other entry-level EMS' available.
Just the ECU itself starts around $2,000.
Wiring harnesses start around $1,000.
MoTeC also required you to get everything installed by an authorized MoTeC dealer, so this discourages DIY'ers.
After said and done, a 13B install could end up costing you $5,000 easy.
Sure, MoTeC customer supposed is top-notch.
In fact, they are probably the best support for entry-level EMS'.
But, you better have bought your stuff from an authorized dealer...
If not, you're screwed.


-Ted

crispeed

It never seems to amaze me that people think that tuning is based mainly on AFR's. I guess all that's needed is a wideband and a laptop and you become a tuner.
Throttle response, ignition timing, etc. just to name a few that no ecu will ever be able to 'Autotune'.
I would be a millionaire if I were to add up the number of times I've made a car much quicker and faster after messing with a so called expert 'tune' even sometimes after making less power.

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Heh, this is true, but lets face it this is what you really get from most '' tuners" anyhow. How many people actually even have a EGT gauge or yet even a bung for one on this forum? Most people just get their ignition maps from the forums, 15psi 15 degree advance, and 10deg split.

For most people on the forums, the hardest part is the afr tune. This is what I'm trying to convey here...

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Ted,

I know this, I'm not going to try and even convey why its not widely used, people run haltechs because they are $700 used, and everyone has them. Everyone tends to follow the flock. Its obviously a safer route to do than trying to learn on your own.

You don't have to be an authorized dealer though Ted, I'm not. We're not trusting the engine tune to a $100 sensor either, hes got a thermocouple that I kept my eye on. I don't tune with just a wideband, but lets face it, we're talking street cars, if I wanted to be real serious it would be on an engine dyno.

crispeed

I guess that's why 'Autotune' and 'Unbreakable' apex seals don't help 'most' people either.!
No need for knock control, widebands, egt correction etc. when you have the above.
I'm going to autotune my 3D correction maps!
This is so funny!

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

I do... and hopefully soon it will communicate with the MoTeC.

The M2R isn't as expensive as the Mx00 series, but it's still a little pricey.

RETed

Well, this has been my experience...

Electromotive?
Go see Ray Lochhead @ Shane Racing - uh, no.

Autronic?
Don't want to deal with rotary engines.
See authorized dealer and (get reemed up the *** price wise) for installation, else no support.

SDS?
Too primitive.

AEM?
Too much problems.

Wolf 3D?
Too much drama early on.
When it went to Chris @ Checkpoint, I knew it was trouble.
We were located around the corner from these guys in Sac...

Microtech?
Dealt with an MT-8 and thought it was downright confusing.
Don't like the idea that the unit has to be sent in to change engine configurations - harder to resell.

So what do we have left?
I did not chose Haltech cause I went with the flock.
We were messing with Haltechs back when it was still the E6 / E6A, so this was prior to the E6K's popularity.
I'm not going to lie and say the Haltech is perfect, but it was a matter of the Haltech being the best choice for my needs.


-Ted

Evil Aviator

I have it on good authority from all of the auto magazine readers on this forum that you MUST have a "wideband" to tune your car, and ANYBODY can tune with one! Therefore, you must be wrong! LOL

(Funny how these guys are too young to realize that sports cars existed prior to the invention of the O2 sensor).

For most people on the forums, AFR is the ONLY thing they even know about. Transients, what are those, something like bums right?

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

I am under the impression that 02/closed loop is really just for the very fine tuning.

The 'auto tune' feature impressed me when I first experienced it, so with the new turbo, it was really just a test.

It was a long road at first tho. Since there arent maps floating around for 2-rotors MoTeC ecus, we had to build the fuel and ignition maps (thanks to YawPower for the ign).

Also, YawPower input the dead band timing for my injectors into the ECU, and played with the fuel enrichments.

Not only that, but the lambda table doesn't magically fill it's self in. So there really is no such thing as 'Auto-tune'

So by NO means, am i under the impression that wideband is all I need, it's just a VERY handy feature for day to day driving.

There is still a ways to go on my tune, but every time we do a little bit, fuel economy improves, and there is better throttle response and more power made.

Lets not forget, there are a slew of other features listed above besides lambda tuning. So that's just one reason why this is an impressive ECU.

Bums are very important for tuning as well... ha

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

I hope you don't think I meant that lol. Maybe I should have chosen my words more wisely. I didn't mean to say that you're going to get a complete tune with just using an autotune feature, however it will replicate what you get from most tuners. I didn't mean to say the above mentioned car was finished either, just that after adjusting the target lambda tables it was neat to see them appear instantly.

Ted, I didn't mean to say you were a follow either, just a generalization of forum trends.

crispeed

Funny I could right a book about that. The number of cars that I have made much quicker without even altering the full load maps. There are many different terms to describe a 'Dynoqueen'.
I see those all the time even on this forum.

The real tuners know it's not any different now than before.
The tools available today just suppliment what you have learnt from the past and aid the process.
Not too long ago I was tuning a heavily modifed boosted(50psi) piston application and all three widebands had different mixtures and were off from each other by almost one point. The owner asked me which one is correct. I told him who cares. All I want to see is a smooth curve and I would base the correct mixture on the sparkplug reading. I went so far as to explain how you can even determine ignition advance based on sprarkplug reading also. Then I told him the final tune would be done at the race track. He was amazed to see the difference the actual load placed on the motor in actual racing conditions especially when the datalog showed that for the first 1/8 mile the charge temps only increased by five degrees and for the remaining 1/8th mile it increased by 40 degrees and knock activity also increase during those conditions and the safety measures that were put into place to correct/aid for those very same conditions.

crispeed

Like I have always said any ecu no matter how good the 'bells-n-whistles' might be if the tuner does not implement those very same features it would be rendered useless. The most important feature is to always choose your tuner before your ecu.
Talk is very cheap(sometimes) and it's often backed up with a lot of hype but actual results speak for themselves and are priceless.

a7r

We get it. Blah blah injector dynamics blah blah MoTeC M2R blah blah lambda was. This thread could have been titled 'Paul Yaw says.' You guys are getting excited by a bunch of features that have been available on aftermarket ECUs for the past decade. The M2R is old and crusty; its MoTeC selling old technology to a new market and it seems like everyone in Arizona is buying them. There are better ECUs out there for the same money, and any of them can be wired up with series 55 and DR-25.

Cool. If you had bought an Autronic you'd be able to do that right now. : |

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

I think I am the only one is AZ currently, with the M2R... I realize it's thier old m4 but rotary specific... it's just a toy compared to the MX00 series. But it's MoTeC, it's enough for a street car, and it's still better than most on the market, at a decent price.

crispeed

That's sure a fact.

AnthonyNYC

iTrader: (3)

[QUOTE=1Revvin7;7759286]Heh, this is true, but lets face it this is what you really get from most '' tuners" anyhow. How many people actually even have a EGT gauge or yet even a bung for one on this forum? Most people just get their ignition maps from the forums, 15psi 15 degree advance, and 10deg split.
QUOTE]

Leave me out of this!

crispeed

[QUOTE=AnthonyNYC;7773423]Why?

TitaniumTT

When I was trying to find an ECU for my little project I spent $85 worth of phonecall to Haltech in AU just to have them say - I dunno if we can do that. So I ventured further up the totem pole and found Motec. The guys there are absolutely fantastic. Helpful knowledgeable etc etc. Then the task came about of finding someone local that could help. When I finally found him, turned out he was an off the radar kinda guy who happens to be a Motec dealer and thus listed on thier website. He took it upon himself to try to figure out if the haltech had the software to do what I wanted it to do. His thought was - they are both boxes. They perform a function. I (meaning him) tell them what to do. He's had E6k's run >200mph @ Bonneville and gotten ahold M800's that wouldn't run a motorcycle engine. It's all on how they are set up and tuned.

FWIW - I ended up with an M800 and a harness that was way beyond that $1,200 figure. Then again, this is an 11 year project sooo......

There's been a few Motec threads popping up lately and honestly I cannot wait to finally fire mine up.

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

hey Titanium, I found the same thing with my local MoTeC guy. He went out of his was to get info for me, check the wiring (that I had professionally installed), and show me some helpful tips when tuning (hot-keys, parameters)

I am just now getting comfortable with the software and tuning in general, but my car is working fine. Although I got the m2r, i bought it because my project is a long term one was well. I wish I had the $$ for the mX00 but I am happy with it non-the-less.

All in all, I've found that yes there are 'better' boxes out there, but the service and support is far better than any other box.

2a+RoN

I love my M400 and version 3...

crispeed

Show off!