Haltech Starts, then IMMEDIATELY stalls repeatedly: Attention C. Ludwig & Aaron Cake
04-28-15, 11:45 AM
#1
Starts, then IMMEDIATELY stalls repeatedly: Attention C. Ludwig & Aaron Cake
This is aggravating to say the least. Engine has been a REAL pain to start up over the past couple days, getting worse each time. Cranks fine, but doesn't want to 'kick up' as it should. When it does, she won't 'stay' going enough to start. In the chance that she does, she'll run for about 1.5 seconds and IMMEDIATELY STALL like someone yanked the ignition relay and falls on her face. Does this several times before she'll stay running long enough to get in gear. At first, it was 4-5 times, now it's up over 10 times for immediate stalling.
I was running all BUR9EQ plugs till all six fouled out in a grand total of 35 miles. Put in BUR7EQs for the leading, she ran fine for a day or so then the problem came back. New trailing plugs are on order, supposed to arrive later today at Autozone.
Build details
1987 GXL
20B-REW, sequential twins setup
Haltech PS2K
D585 coils
Stock 550/550 injectors
NO BAC
LS2 Coolant sensor
I've only witnessed this behavior once before while driving. Regardless of throttle or RPM, the engine would just fall on her face again and again, then refuse to restart for about 10 minutes. That was on BUR7/BUR9 plugs that has been fouled and cleaned A LOT. Logan at Defined Autoworks said that the plugs were beyond usable then, which makes sense after being fouled/cleaned several times. But to experience the same behavior on plugs that are less than 48 hours old???
Last time I was at Defined, Logan did some basic tuning on my Haltech (with 6 BUR9 plugs in the engine) so I could get the car back home. Engine ran fine in the driveway then, but as soon as I started driving it a week ago, it started doing this. I know she's running considerably rich (12.5-13.0 AFRs at idle) and rich enough to refuse to go into boost (floods/backfires at 1psi, trigger pressure for secondaries). Floods/Backfires when given over 1/3 throttle too.
Ideas?
I was running all BUR9EQ plugs till all six fouled out in a grand total of 35 miles. Put in BUR7EQs for the leading, she ran fine for a day or so then the problem came back. New trailing plugs are on order, supposed to arrive later today at Autozone.
Build details
1987 GXL
20B-REW, sequential twins setup
Haltech PS2K
D585 coils
Stock 550/550 injectors
NO BAC
LS2 Coolant sensor
I've only witnessed this behavior once before while driving. Regardless of throttle or RPM, the engine would just fall on her face again and again, then refuse to restart for about 10 minutes. That was on BUR7/BUR9 plugs that has been fouled and cleaned A LOT. Logan at Defined Autoworks said that the plugs were beyond usable then, which makes sense after being fouled/cleaned several times. But to experience the same behavior on plugs that are less than 48 hours old???
Last time I was at Defined, Logan did some basic tuning on my Haltech (with 6 BUR9 plugs in the engine) so I could get the car back home. Engine ran fine in the driveway then, but as soon as I started driving it a week ago, it started doing this. I know she's running considerably rich (12.5-13.0 AFRs at idle) and rich enough to refuse to go into boost (floods/backfires at 1psi, trigger pressure for secondaries). Floods/Backfires when given over 1/3 throttle too.
Ideas?
04-28-15, 02:34 PM
#4
Senior Member
Alright, so it was working OK?
Then, over the course of days, it got harder and harder to start without changing anything?
If the tune is OK, Plugs that are so fouled to cause it to cut off, almost certainly wouldn't let it fire to begin with.
If you haven't changed anything then I'd suggest starting with some basic diagnostic steps.
check compression
Check power and ground supplies,
check fuel pressure and delivery.
Look at main inputs, like, CAS/trigger, coolant temp, map signal,
then outputs like coils and injectors
We can all speculate til the cows come home, but basic diagnosis requires "quality time".
Then, over the course of days, it got harder and harder to start without changing anything?
If the tune is OK, Plugs that are so fouled to cause it to cut off, almost certainly wouldn't let it fire to begin with.
If you haven't changed anything then I'd suggest starting with some basic diagnostic steps.
check compression
Check power and ground supplies,
check fuel pressure and delivery.
Look at main inputs, like, CAS/trigger, coolant temp, map signal,
then outputs like coils and injectors
We can all speculate til the cows come home, but basic diagnosis requires "quality time".
04-28-15, 03:48 PM
#5
Okay, here's where we stand now.
Suspecting the same, I re-examined both power and ground bus bars for electrical fidelity. Seeing resistance figures too high for my liking (~20 ohms on one and 10 on the other), I cleaned both bus bars as best I could with a wire brush and put them back in. Upon reinstall, both read 0.7 ohms as they should.
Same falling on face behavior as before. Got the new trailing plugs in (now she has all NEW plugs!), same thing happens.
ECU temperature isn't a factor, it's not under the hood. It's very well protected from heat sources inside the car. Compression is fine as well, I learned from Logan what it sounds like when one or more rotors aren't behaving properly. Car is PARTIALLY tuned, far from perfect, but was running fine immediately preceeding this behavior.
I can't open ECU Manager because my laptop is just too old to stay stable long enough (2.6ghz Celeron, 500ish megs of memory, no 3d graphics at all, etc), plus its battery is trashed.
The car's battery is currently being recharged again due to car stalling every few seconds. Second time in two days
As for fuel delivery/pressure, that seems plausible but I'm not entirely sure. Would it stand to reason that a FD pump (acquired used in 2008) would not be able to keep up with a 20B's 550 primaries only (engine always in vacuum for above reasons)?
Suspecting the same, I re-examined both power and ground bus bars for electrical fidelity. Seeing resistance figures too high for my liking (~20 ohms on one and 10 on the other), I cleaned both bus bars as best I could with a wire brush and put them back in. Upon reinstall, both read 0.7 ohms as they should.
Same falling on face behavior as before. Got the new trailing plugs in (now she has all NEW plugs!), same thing happens.
ECU temperature isn't a factor, it's not under the hood. It's very well protected from heat sources inside the car. Compression is fine as well, I learned from Logan what it sounds like when one or more rotors aren't behaving properly. Car is PARTIALLY tuned, far from perfect, but was running fine immediately preceeding this behavior.
I can't open ECU Manager because my laptop is just too old to stay stable long enough (2.6ghz Celeron, 500ish megs of memory, no 3d graphics at all, etc), plus its battery is trashed.
The car's battery is currently being recharged again due to car stalling every few seconds. Second time in two days
As for fuel delivery/pressure, that seems plausible but I'm not entirely sure. Would it stand to reason that a FD pump (acquired used in 2008) would not be able to keep up with a 20B's 550 primaries only (engine always in vacuum for above reasons)?
Last edited by Akagis_white_comet; 04-28-15 at 03:53 PM. Reason: More info
04-28-15, 04:06 PM
#7
Senior Member
I hate ohmmeters!
Really, when you are testing, you should be checking voltage drop on the circuits.
Think about it you could have a wire with only one strand left intact, test it's resistance, It's Good!. but wait, when you try to pass normal current through it you suddenly have a 8V drop on the circuit.
the Ohmmeter can help you out when testing sensors and such but it can have you chasing your own tail for days when testing a power supply circuit.
as far as the pump. the basic pump obviously is sufficient to supply fuel to your engine. But there are other things that could result in poor fuel supply.
clogged filter, bad regulator, pinched fuel lines,voltage drop on that circuit caused by a bad relay,etc...
Really, when you are testing, you should be checking voltage drop on the circuits.
Think about it you could have a wire with only one strand left intact, test it's resistance, It's Good!. but wait, when you try to pass normal current through it you suddenly have a 8V drop on the circuit.
the Ohmmeter can help you out when testing sensors and such but it can have you chasing your own tail for days when testing a power supply circuit.
as far as the pump. the basic pump obviously is sufficient to supply fuel to your engine. But there are other things that could result in poor fuel supply.
clogged filter, bad regulator, pinched fuel lines,voltage drop on that circuit caused by a bad relay,etc...
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04-28-15, 04:28 PM
#8
I hate ohmmeters!
Really, when you are testing, you should be checking voltage drop on the circuits.
Think about it you could have a wire with only one strand left intact, test it's resistance, It's Good!. but wait, when you try to pass normal current through it you suddenly have a 8V drop on the circuit.
the Ohmmeter can help you out when testing sensors and such but it can have you chasing your own tail for days when testing a power supply circuit.
as far as the pump. the basic pump obviously is sufficient to supply fuel to your engine. But there are other things that could result in poor fuel supply.
clogged filter, bad regulator, pinched fuel lines,voltage drop on that circuit caused by a bad relay,etc...
Really, when you are testing, you should be checking voltage drop on the circuits.
Think about it you could have a wire with only one strand left intact, test it's resistance, It's Good!. but wait, when you try to pass normal current through it you suddenly have a 8V drop on the circuit.
the Ohmmeter can help you out when testing sensors and such but it can have you chasing your own tail for days when testing a power supply circuit.
as far as the pump. the basic pump obviously is sufficient to supply fuel to your engine. But there are other things that could result in poor fuel supply.
clogged filter, bad regulator, pinched fuel lines,voltage drop on that circuit caused by a bad relay,etc...
Considering the history of my fuel pump is somewhat unknown before I got it, aside from being pulled from a friend's FD when he upgraded to a Supra pump, it sounds like the most logical suspect. Fuel filter was replaced a year ago. Regulator is stock 20B one, fuel lines are good, relay seems fine IIRC. Methinks it just got jealous of the Walbro 255 pump sitting in my toolbox
04-28-15, 05:40 PM
#9
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That is a very good point regarding Ohm's Law. I for one encountered that with my well-known cable crisis/starter testing years ago. To test voltage drop between the battery and the front of the car, all I need to do is turn the key to ON. Power from the battery, output to Starter and output to fuse box are all stacked on a single stud, torqued down properly so there should be no reason for glitchiness at that junction. Before I did this, it was showing a big voltage drop between the studs (remember Ohm's Law...), making the car behave like it had a dead battery. All the power was being burnt up by the rust, acting like a ~30 ohm resistor and eating a ton of juice.
Considering the history of my fuel pump is somewhat unknown before I got it, aside from being pulled from a friend's FD when he upgraded to a Supra pump, it sounds like the most logical suspect. Fuel filter was replaced a year ago. Regulator is stock 20B one, fuel lines are good, relay seems fine IIRC. Methinks it just got jealous of the Walbro 255 pump sitting in my toolbox
Considering the history of my fuel pump is somewhat unknown before I got it, aside from being pulled from a friend's FD when he upgraded to a Supra pump, it sounds like the most logical suspect. Fuel filter was replaced a year ago. Regulator is stock 20B one, fuel lines are good, relay seems fine IIRC. Methinks it just got jealous of the Walbro 255 pump sitting in my toolbox
Hey, just a shot in the dark, but check ur TPS.
I just got done chasing a problem very similar to this for a year. Ended up being TPS. Just check it. Try unplugging it.
04-28-15, 07:18 PM
#10
Turns out it WAS the fuel pump after all. Swapped in the Walbro 255 with the aid of ObliqueFD and the car was infinitely happier. The FD pump was just old and couldn't keep up. So, lesson learned and it's one for the 20B FAQ:
A FD fuel pump can feed a 20B, but ONLY if NEW. If yours is older than 6 months, you're bound to run into fuel pressure/supply issues.
A FD fuel pump can feed a 20B, but ONLY if NEW. If yours is older than 6 months, you're bound to run into fuel pressure/supply issues.
05-02-15, 09:29 AM
#11
After a basic tuning session with ObliqueFD, targeting 13.5-13.7 AFRs, the car was running much happier. Gained a bit of power, less hesitation/backfiring and quite a bit more throttle response too. The next day, it started running like crap and I'm not sure why. Could I get a second opinion on this?
Car was backfiring, running considerably leaner, around 14.5+ under feather light throttle. When given ANY load such as taking off from a standstill, she immediately shoots to 15-18 AFR, has absolutely no power, backfires a ton and then stalls out.
She erupts in a fit of backfiring when given over 25% throttle in driving. She also wants to fall on her face while idling too, drifting lean then coming back and 'cycling' like this untill she finally just stalls. Spark plugs have less than a week of use on them, under 50 miles total.
I've checked, re-checked and triple checked all of the obvious areas such as the main & ground bus bars, wire brushed them till they shine as much as possible. Did the same with all of the battery connections in the hatch to make sure they're getting good, solid connections. Made no discernible difference.
So I took a few datalogs this morning of the erratic behavior as best as I could to capture it. The third datalog shows a pretty distinct "scissor" pattern between AFR and Injector time. But what makes no sense is that this was on a working map in which no changes were made and no mechanical/electrical changes were made. One thing I did notice is that there was a metallic rattling near the front passenger side tire and when I gave it some throttle, I heard it tumble out the back and disappear entirely. Since then, the car has a noticeable vibration above 35mph and does not appear to be RPM-related. No wheel weights appear to be missing either
Logs and fuel map are attached. Please change the file extension to".zip" and extract for viewing in Haltech ECU Manager & Data Log Viewer. Please note that my anti-knock system is on AVI#5 (Ignition trim) and doesn't budge from 2.51v the whole time.
Car was backfiring, running considerably leaner, around 14.5+ under feather light throttle. When given ANY load such as taking off from a standstill, she immediately shoots to 15-18 AFR, has absolutely no power, backfires a ton and then stalls out.
She erupts in a fit of backfiring when given over 25% throttle in driving. She also wants to fall on her face while idling too, drifting lean then coming back and 'cycling' like this untill she finally just stalls. Spark plugs have less than a week of use on them, under 50 miles total.
I've checked, re-checked and triple checked all of the obvious areas such as the main & ground bus bars, wire brushed them till they shine as much as possible. Did the same with all of the battery connections in the hatch to make sure they're getting good, solid connections. Made no discernible difference.
So I took a few datalogs this morning of the erratic behavior as best as I could to capture it. The third datalog shows a pretty distinct "scissor" pattern between AFR and Injector time. But what makes no sense is that this was on a working map in which no changes were made and no mechanical/electrical changes were made. One thing I did notice is that there was a metallic rattling near the front passenger side tire and when I gave it some throttle, I heard it tumble out the back and disappear entirely. Since then, the car has a noticeable vibration above 35mph and does not appear to be RPM-related. No wheel weights appear to be missing either
Logs and fuel map are attached. Please change the file extension to".zip" and extract for viewing in Haltech ECU Manager & Data Log Viewer. Please note that my anti-knock system is on AVI#5 (Ignition trim) and doesn't budge from 2.51v the whole time.
05-15-15, 07:53 PM
#14
Rotary Enthusiast
is your leading ignition firing?
thats where im putting my bets.
Another thing to try assuming you have a copy of the map, load the map into your ecu again then turn the car back off and back on before trying to start it.
thats where im putting my bets.
Another thing to try assuming you have a copy of the map, load the map into your ecu again then turn the car back off and back on before trying to start it.
Last edited by mikey D; 05-15-15 at 07:56 PM.
05-16-15, 02:03 PM
#15
Got another one en-route form Canada right now, along with a bonus too. Will post back with news once I have it
05-19-15, 06:11 PM
#16
assuming the tune is reasonable.. when i see weird behavior like this it is usually caused by a vacuum leak. Do the injectors fit tight, check blockoff plate gaskets, intake gaskets
also the D585 coils are trash, it will idle and run way better with factory coils or IGN-1A's
also the D585 coils are trash, it will idle and run way better with factory coils or IGN-1A's
07-09-15, 01:40 PM
#18
Aaron Cake seems to believe that the primary injectors are suspect, causing low but even compression on all 3 rotors, especially the middle one. Given the age and how they were in an unknown condition when I acquired them with the engine, I have no reason to doubt this. So as soon as I can get back over to the car, we're yanking the primaries out for professional cleaning along with giving it a steam bath. Any recommendations on where to send them to? RC Engineering? WitchHunter Performance? Injector Rehab? Jim's house of donuts? 
Excessive fuel dumped by a bum injector will wash the oil film off of the housings/irons/seals and result in low compression.
Were your injectors cleaned, tested and balanced by a shop?
Was the whole fuel system flushed?
90% of problems I see with builds, or engines is caused by fuel injectors. We have old injectors in a hostile environment that have been running for 30 years. Then they sit, and instantly clog/lock up.
The worst are the ones that work intermittently.
Just want to cover the easy bases before you tear the engine apart.
Were your injectors cleaned, tested and balanced by a shop?
Was the whole fuel system flushed?
90% of problems I see with builds, or engines is caused by fuel injectors. We have old injectors in a hostile environment that have been running for 30 years. Then they sit, and instantly clog/lock up.
The worst are the ones that work intermittently.
Just want to cover the easy bases before you tear the engine apart.
07-09-15, 08:41 PM
#19
interesting.. i had the same problem with my ps1k, upgraded firmware, then it flooded when i tried to start it. it was a bitch to get it running again. i forget the actual sequence, but i pulled plugs to unflood with no luck, reloaded the firmware and map several times and all the sudden fired right up
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