Rxmfn7

iTrader: (4)

I have a E6X for my FC, wires all cut and connectors on, ready to be installed. After reading over the pages of posts about the problems with it, people blowing engines, etc.. it is making me quite nervous. Should I look into something else , or are the problems with the e6X limited to only a few cases?

DigitalSynthesis

The X hasn't blown anything yet (that was the E11v1) but if you are going to install an X I would recommend you do some extreme shielding measures on your CAS wire. Apparently the new pickups in it are ridiculously sensitive to noise and require better than military grade shielding. :-/

jreynish

iTrader: (2)

yes install it but before you do go out and buy the following two things;
hollow sheilded cable that will fit the trigger wires through,
and some metal foil and some heat shrink tape.
Now run the trigger wires though the sheilded cable ground that at the firewall where your wires go through to your haltech, then wrap that cable in the foil and ground that at the same end at the firewall. Now attach your connector and carry on.... this is what it took for me to get it running.

Rxmfn7

iTrader: (4)

So besides the extra shielding needed, everything with the EMS is ok? Ive heard stories of it allowing extreme ignition breakup in the higher RPMs.

DannyD

that ignition breakup is believed to be the CAS wire shielding problem. nothings for certain though.

Claudio RX-7

iTrader: (1)

To add a little more to the installation process, guys, remember our cars are over 15 years old now, and the rotary engine is a very hot running power plant, our wiring harnesses are battered, beat and bruised, the ideal thing is, as you guys put it, run new wiring and sheild the hell out of the CAS wires. Also, make sure you ground the shield at the closest possible point to the ECU, that way, all noise the other parts of the harness might pick up are drived away, remember the haltech harness has that additional ground wire which pics up all the shield wires in there as well.

Other than that, i guess its a matter of proper tuning as always.

Later,

SnowmanSteiner

You really shouldn't be using too many old wires if you are installing it. Aside from an inch or two from the cas and an inch or two at the coils you shouldn't have to use old wiring. The sheilding is a good idea, there is a thread about someone using a 5 dollar part from radio shack because he was having ignition break up, trying doing a search for that, cause it cleared up all of his problems really quickly. As for the horror stories, I can attest that I had no problems with my E6X. I didn't do any sheilding and never had any problems with it. I had one grounding issue, but that was due to the stock wiring to the tranny, not any of the haltech wires.

- Steiner

GUITARJUNKIE28

keep your home and trigger gain at 2 or less (unless it's not picking up)

get new plug wires (msd's are great--the expensive ones)

keep your cas wire as far away from your ignition as humanly possible. i've run 2 along the injector harness, then across the engine with very little slack in the line.

keep the unshielded section as short as possible. i got one down to about a half an inch!! (that connector took me more than an hour though)

jreynish

iTrader: (2)

LOL... YUP know what that is like... lol!

GUITARJUNKIE28

i'm hurt

...nm, i left myself wide open for that one.
carry on gentlemen. and gimme the setup for the x on an fd motor while you're at it.

**edit for on of my many typo's**

p51020b

Realistically, the problem is lack of knowlegde. Do not ground the CAS side of the shielding. This makes a potentical difference between the ECU and trigger, which messes everything up. Read the manual and go for it. Most of the problems in here are due to dodgy installations. Oh, and do it all with no battery in the car. Unplug the modules before putting the battery back in, do the software setup, set up the mapping enough to get it started, then, last thing plug in the module. Do this, and you will be fine.

DigitalSynthesis

I beg to differ. Both a VERY reputable tuner, an electrical engineer, and a number of intelligent people are having these problems using *properly grounded, properly run, and VASTLY better than stock* cabling. If the E6X is so dodgy it can't handle better than stock installations there is a serious problem. Unfortunately my car was wrecked the day before we could put a scope on it to see where the problem lies.

If you'd read people's posts, instead of just assuming that they did the basic stuff wrong, then you would see the lengths that have already been gone to to try and make this work.

My personal opinion is this: it should NOT require exorbitant shielding (like some of us have resorted to) to cause the E6X to work well with our CAS signal. However there are too many instances of this being an issue (versus virtually none with the E6K) to ignore there being a *potential* issue with the new reluctor pickups.

Nice. Wish that worked for me. And the other half-dozen or more people who have tried things like this. Not that its bad advice : its just one more blithe statement that if you only do the basics right nothing ill will befall you. Which is the entire point of our discussion : that that is NOT the case with this ECU for a sizable percent of the installed user base.

Please read before criticizing. Thank you.

p51020b

sorry, your an electrical engineer... want me to type slower ?

i have overlooked more than enough of these installations to see that maybe 1 in 20 will have an issue. putting all your extra sheilding and crap on the trigger wiring is probable causing the issues....
i wish it worked for you too. oh well. maybe you should have had a professional do it, instead of thinking you could do it yourself. Do you do the plumbing at home as well ? and the carpentry? no.. you have a professional do it.
if you do... id hate to see what your house looks like!
the 1 in 20 that do have an issue wqill normally be due to a fault driver or trigger circuit, which once under load brakes down.. unfortunate that the testing on these units can not find this. but.. such is life.

GUITARJUNKIE28

dood,
do your homework before you make insults. it's pretty obvious you don't know anything about the e6x.

DigitalSynthesis

Again. You talk, and don't read. *I* didn't shield diddly except the stock shielding that came with the E6X. I properly grounded my wire, and properly ran it. The gentlemen who went to extreme measures to shield it had the problem go away.

Now please stop bitching about our installations and go read what the actual problems are. Talk to the tuners who are experiencing these issues, and then when you have realized that this is something beyond the basics, perhaps you can say something more to the point.

Until then, its clear to me that you are wishing to argue instead of listening and discussing the issues at hand.

p51020b

just curious electrical engineers.. every tried taking your alternator belt off to see how much noise is on the signal...
i dont want to argue.
i want to resolve. there is so much rubish on this forum, which is half the reason why you are all having trouble. dont listen to any of the crap in here.. verify it with a professional.

DigitalSynthesis

I still don't think you are getting the point. The point is: the stock system works perfectly fine with barely shielded wires, run RIGHT NEXT to the alternator in a bundle which also picks up interference from the spark plugs due to other wires in the bundle running next to it.

Our setup runs the wires AWAY from both the alternator AND the spark plugs, shields the cable better, and does not bundle it with things until it goes through the firewall.

Now, please, explain if you will, Mr. Professsional (which is why I will never take my car to a "professional", ever - I've never had a professional solve a single problem properly without my standing over his shoulder) why the E6K setup has nearly zero problems using the STOCK wiring while the E6X setup has trouble with its OWN improved harness installed in a cleaner, and less noisy environment? And please explain why people have had problems getting the E6X to run *AT ALL* in a near-stock setup?

My point is this : YES there is intereference. There will ALWAYS be interference. The problem is HOW MUCH intereference can be dealt with. And the E6X has a MUCH lower tolerance for interference than even the E6K does. And much lower than the stock system.

Its stupid to say "oh, theres another interference source, eliminate it." Its wiser to say "this ECU should be capable of dealing with 20 times this much interference and its having problems already, what's the deal?'" Either the wiring in the E6X flying lead kit SUCKS for shielding, their grounding is faulty to the shield, or there is a significant problem with a) the reluctor design or b) the reluctor's internal shielding.

Now, to make the point even MORE clear: Haltech USA themselves admit that their external RA-8s are better shielded than their internal RX-8s on the E6X's board. And in suggesting that we purchase one or two of them, they admit that the E6X's *board* may be the interference source. Wow. How about them apples? Buying a $100 US external reluctor adapter to handle a clean signal that the stock ECU should be handling just because the pickup circuitry needed better internal shielding from RF on the ground plane?? Give me a break.

Do you get the point yet?

And I'm probably going TEC3 or MoTec as soon as I get the money. But I should probably let a "professional" do the install. *cough*

p51020b

the stock ecu does work your right. does it work with 1000 other cars as well ? These units i guess have to compatable with a few different types of cars....
i too have spoken to haltch about the internal / external issues .... u being an electrical engineer i would guess you would know that an external adaptor would work a little better due to it being away from any noise within the e6x itself. i asume when changing to different drivers that the unit suffers more noise now.

go buy a motec and have the same issues mate...


Its stupid to say "oh, theres another interference source, eliminate it." Its wiser to say "this ECU should be capable of dealing with 20 times this much interference and its having problems already, what's the deal?'" Either the wiring in the E6X flying lead kit SUCKS for shielding, their grounding is faulty to the shield, or there is a significant problem with a) the reluctor design or b) the reluctor's internal shielding.

much wiser you moron, do you either a, fix the nosie in your individual car, or b. pull the unti apart and reengineer it ? Work with what you have....
as for the later, if you call haltech instead of being a forum wirdo they might tell you they are in development of a new reluctor adaptor....

13BT510

Haltech USA? how long has there been a USA office? Do they have technical support over there? I spoke to the guys at sydney about a month ago at a dyno day and from what i gathered the only office they have is in Sydney.
Anyway i agree that in the states the "professionals" are not much chop, now im just an average guy with an interest in cars but fair dinkim there are some untrained uneducated fellas in operation in the US....maybe thats just my experience with the people i dealt with when i was living there (i dont want to rag on the country my wife is from this may just be my experience).
The other thing i know is that if a customer is watching over my shoulder i will not continue to work at the rate i always do. There is nothing more frustrating that some know it all who tries to tell me how to do my job - if they know all this so well why arent they making good money doing it??
If you have ever even considered thinking about designing a reluctor adaptor circuit you would be keeping your mouth well and truely shut about designing a circuit to withstand "20 times the amount of noise", id be prepared to give any person $10000 to design such a circuit that works on all vehicles !

This is half the problem, that circuit also has to be able to control a BMW motronic trigger system, and a toyota 24 tooth system, and a nissan 360 tooth system, and a honda, and a subaru.....this list goes on.

Its true the standard ECU does a good job of controlling things....but how well does it control those 1600cc injectors? or how much retard will it give your nitrous? you get the picture.

I have scoped this RX7 problem numerous times and i can tell you all for free that the problem is not ignition noise, its noise from the charging system, the bushes commonly used to rebuild the alternator are noisy as a noisy thing and cause havoc... So dont worry about shielding stuff from the firewall, or putting anything in pipes or anything like that. Just make sure your alternator wiring is shielded from the trigger pickup (thats a bitch i know because of how close they are).

Dont ground the shielding anywhere its done within the loom.

and if pain persists please see your doctor.

Thats all,
Phil

13BT510

Im not sure if you have noticed mate but you are actually replying to a forum on a forum, now correct me if im wrong but doesnt this make you a "forum wierdo"?

13BT510

While im here - detonation, pinging, rattling, whatever you want to call it - if you hear it you have probably just blown out your apex seals. if you think this is the way to tune then you clearly need to go back to school. You might do this with your mums '84 toyota but not with a high performance car.
id go on about tuning - but clearly with statements like that on this forum its not worth the effort !

RETed

Ok, so you're basically saying you're a backyard mechanic with no certifications making assumptions you're pulling out of your ***?
Yeah, like we need to listen to you.

Look *******...
I haven't had an E6X in my hands yet.
I've tried to help a bunch of owners who do own them.
I can tell you right now - THEY ARE RUNNING INTO PROBLEMS AN E6K WOULD NEVER HAVE.
I guess that fact had slipped your mind.
So what's the difference between the E6X and the E6K?
The godamn ******' reluctor.
It doesn't take a PhD to make this conclusion, and Haltech suggesting an outboard RA8 already implies there's something wrong with the on-board RA-8.

Rewiring the CAS inputs differently on the E6X versus the E6K already has me suspicious.
Yes, you're right - the E6X CAS wiring could easily induce RFI into the whole enchilada.
Does this mean the Haltech is NOT at fault 100%?
Think about your answer now...


-Ted

RETed

You're an average job **** off the street.
Please do your homework before making ignorant comments like this.
I've detonated my 13BT in my 1987 FC3S turbo at least twice.
Once was due to cross trailing spark plug wires.
The ping was so LOUD, that it easily mimic'd the hammer on a metal pipe sound.
*PING* *PING*
Wow, my engine still runs till this day.
No, no apex seal failure.
Boy, that just blows your ignorant theories doesn't it?

So, Mr. know-it-all, why don't you tell us how you're supposed to adjust your ignition timing for the BEST power?


-Ted

RETed

Wow, now that's helpful!
You're just made the whole environment more antiseptic by removing the running alternator.
Why not just throw the CAS on the test bench?
Oh right!
You don't come in here anymore!


-Ted

DigitalSynthesis

Really? How about that 20 times of noise being the typical noise level for the system and the implied 1/20th reference signal being what the cleaner, newly rewired, higher quality, better shielded (I'm speaking hypothetically here) Haltech line sees? What I'm saying is this: the wiring on my car is better, noise-wise, than the stock setup. A reluctor pickup is a reluctor pickup in the sense that the output characteristics of all reluctor pickups are with the exception of amplitude and added noise virtually the same for a given frequency. In other words, a 'blipped' sine wave with a zero crossing at the point where the derivative of the relative speed of the magnet to the pickup switches sign. If the reluctors aren't even as good as stock, then I consider the system to be deficient. I should not have to purchase external reluctor adapters unless its specified ahead of time that such things are needed, in which case they shouldn't be built in in the first place.

Actually, there's more than two ways to do it, but there are two that come readily to mind. One way is to, depending on the setup of the ECU in software, route the signal to dedicated circuitry for each major pickup type. The other is to use DSP on the signal and just "key" the microprocessor for the pickup type its looking at. Either way, there's nothing tremendously difficult about handling multiple trigger types beyond additional board space and some component cost or software development time. These triggers have existed for many years and their properties and decoding circuits are well known.

Solid advice, and its been brought up before, but many of us are running brand new (non-reman) alternators and are already relocating our alternator cabling and CAS cabling as divergently as physically possible.

As we've been saying...

No ****. But seriously, NO OTHER ECU has this percent of problems on this car in this application. Sorry my friend but the numbers don't lie.

I agree and already said blatantly that an external reluctor was better shielded. That's not the point. The point is there's nothing hard about picking up the signal reliably in an ECU as well. Every other ECU out there does it just fine, and if the ECU has reluctor pickups built in and I need to buy external ones, then I have a problem with that.

No thanks. They are used quite heavily to great success 'round here. The same can't be said for these ECUs unfortunately.

No. If the noise source is something (such as my alternator) which happens to be a useful component of my car that is not having problems itself, then its part of the environment I can reasonably expect the Haltech to deal with. I'm not turning off my Alternator to rev past 7 grand, thank you. I'm also not running friggin hard copper water pipe around my CAS line to get enough shielding for it.

Further proof there's a problem with their current one.

And with that, I'll leave you loyal Australians to your fervent defense of your local companies, and your prevailing notion that university education is worthless. I'm out of this discussion. Haltech should award you a ribbon for your spirited defense of their honor. Perhaps you'd be more than happy to buy my ECU off me if you can do it better? I, for my part, just expected a better engineered product than I got, as did a number of other well known and reputable E6X users.

Good bye.