RacerJason

iTrader: (5)

I will be running a full bridge 13b N/A with ITB's (Yes Claudio I'll be bugging you for your ITB N/A basemap) what are some of the more reliable, and robust ignition options out there for the E6X keeping in mind that I would like to be able to transfer the same setup a season or so from now to a different standalone (E8, E11, or Motec). MSD? Crane? And which coils to mate it to? What's all this LS business about?

RacerJason

iTrader: (5)

*yawn* 22 views and no suggestions or opinions?

Claudio RX-7

iTrader: (1)

I honestly think that a stock FC ignition system is plenty of power four application, since they are more than capable of running in a turbo application with plenty of power potential, im sure in an NA setup they are enough. If budget is no object you can use an Autronic 500R CDI which is pretty damn great for a rotary, its the only CDI that can actually run that type of ignition on its own with great results, buts its expensive.

The LS1 coils are also an affordable choice and when tweaked right they can provide enough spark for your setup too.

I would start with stock FC components, tweak the dwell settings on the software to make more spark and gap your plugs properly.

BDC

+1 on stock FC ignition. VERY powerful; very over-designed.

B

Claudio RX-7

iTrader: (1)

Yeah man, i totally agree, usually when you have a large coil like those, lots of power comes out of it.

slo

iTrader: (1)

do you guys think there would be any advantage to running 2 pairs of trailing coils.

so that the leading could be run without wasted spark.

Claudio RX-7

iTrader: (1)

Come again? you wanna run to trailing coil packs for both leading AND trailing? this would be the same as running say, 4 LS1 coils?

What do you hope to gain? but the simple answer is that the X cant really do that.

slo

iTrader: (1)

the X can't run dirrect fire?

What would be the gain, well I have several good sets of coils.

Can't the charge times be higher running the coil dirrect fire?

Claudio RX-7

iTrader: (1)

Yes, running in direct fire you can have a higher gain from a higher dwell time. But the E6X when set to direct fire mode it will basically just fire Inj1 for the leading and Inj2 and 3 for the trailing, and if you know how the ignition on the 13B fires you should know that the leading fires every 180 degrees, and the trailing plugs are fired alternating between them.

Im a little fuzzy on the E8/E11's operation, but i think that the 2 leading ignition channels fire at the same time as well, even when set as direct fire.

RETed

Actually, you can...
By splitting the signal for the leading coil prior to the ignitors (assuming you're going to run a dedicated ignitor + single tower coil per leading), you can get away with this.
Basically, you get a single tower coil from the trailings, and strap it onto the leading coil pack ignitor base.

Yes, this is superior due to the fact that you're firing one coil per spark plug.
The wastespark firing of a twin tower coil has a disadvantage due to the fact that the front versus rear rotor combustion chambers are "not balanced".
Firing a spark into a compressed charge of fresh air and fuel is a lot harder than the back end of a combustion chamber with ionized exhaust gases - the spark tends to fire stronger in the later.
With the dedicated coil per spark plug leadings, you don't have this problem...


-Ted

Claudio RX-7

iTrader: (1)

Ok, run that by me again? are you saying just use 4 individual coils splitting the signal from the Ign1 output between the 2 leading coils? or did you say something else cause i didnt quite follow.

Comitatus

iTrader: (7)

Ok, I know and have experienced how good the Stock FC ignition is. For those of us that need a bit more, what would be the recommended upgrade path. New coils? Amps? Wires?

Since the stock coils suffice for up to large amounts of power, couldn't we just add a MSD 6A or the like to the primary coils, decent plug wires (NGK, Magnecor), and Race Plugs (NGK 10.5's or greater) and call it a day?

OR do we really need to step into the upgrade range of new coils, and seperate ign boxes for each coil? I know a lot of high powered drag cars do this, but is this overkill for the weekend warrior that most high powered boys have sitting in their garages?

Where do the limits of the ECU come into play with ignition? I know the E6X cannot do direct fire for rotaries because of the firing order.

Claudio RX-7

iTrader: (1)

Well, i would say that for the weekend worrier like you say, stock coils and ignition with a little more dwell time would be enough. I have it on good authority that a good set of FC coils/igniters would actually provide enough spark for around 500+HP to the engine, maybe even more.

As far as going beyond this power level, i would say that the best thing to do would not necessarily be the cheapest. Since you are dealing with 3 signals, and a single CDI box wont cut it (unless you wanna fork over the cash for an Autronic 500R) you need either 3x6A units, or 2 DIS2, or a single DIS2 and a 6A, or something along those lines.

I dont know how the HKS DLI Twin Spark unit is rated in the aftermarket world, but a lot of people like em, i also dont know how many channels those units have, but since they can be mounted on Supras, im sure they have at least 3.

But its all a matter of actually sitting down and doing the R&D necessary to establish a baseline among ignition components, CDIs, stock or aftermarket coils, and actually see the difference on a dyno. Something im sure the majority of us cant really do, yet. Who know's, maybe someday i'll have the chance to do an ignition setup benchmark.

Comitatus

iTrader: (7)

Ok, that makes sense.

How much more dwell time are we talking about? Correct me if I'm wrong, dwell time is the time that the coil charges before firing, or no?

I have 1 MSD 6AL that I'm adding to my stock ignition setup right now. I will be hooking it to the leading coils. I'm sure this well help some, and I don't think it could hurt anything.

I know the ultimate setup would be the Autronic 500R, but for just beefing up the ignition to handle 550-600whp is what I'm looking for. If the coils can't handle that high, then I will look to replace them. If they can with amps, then great...that's another route I can take. I'm just looking for all options and their adv/disadv before I take action.

P.S. Get that dyno goin...

Comitatus

iTrader: (7)

Ok, got the MSD in and hooked in with the Haltech as well.

One Question...

How important is it to set the settings in the Ignition setup to Constant Duty, Falling, and to switch after 50%.

PRE MSD, I had it on Constant Charge, Rising, and dwell set to 4.7ms.

Can I leave it that way, or is it more important to switch it to the settings above?

Sorry if this is a dumb question, I'm still learning and understanding this.

RETed

Are you using it after the (stock) ignitor?
In this case, you don't need to change anything.

Are you using it to replace the ignitor?
Then that's a whole new can of worms...


-Ted

Comitatus

iTrader: (7)

It is set up now as a replacement for the stock ignitor. Stock Ignitor is no longer hooked up.
The MSD 6AL gets input from Ignition 1 on the E6X, and outputs directly to the coil.

RETed

Then you'll need to do that to the trailings also?
Have you done that?

Once you do both the leadings and trailings, then you can change the ignition settings for IGNITION TRIGGER = RISING and CONSTANT CHARGE to CONSTANT DUTY.
You need to change it to RISING, or else your ignition timing will not be correct - the MSD's fire on the rising edge.

If you just did the leadings, you are going to mess up your ignition timing cause either the leadings are going to be wrong (FALLING EDGE) or the trailings (RISING EDGE).


-Ted

Comitatus

iTrader: (7)

Ok, I can understand that. So I'm gonna need 2 more MSD boxes for the trailings?
So I hook them up the same way persay, where do they get their ignition input from? Split the signal from IGNITION 1 from the Haltech or from somewhere else?

I don't have 2 more boxes on hand right now, so if I hook up the MSD to the leadings behind the ignitor, how would I go about that and still use the input from the Haltech? Looking at the write-up from your site, its installed behind the ingnitor, and the points input is wired into the wires coming from the ignitor. Does the Haltech just stay wired in like I had it pre-MSD box (running into the stock white connector sitting on the coil)? I would assume so, since logically the haltech is firing the ignitor, then the ignitor goes through the MSD, then to the coil.

RETed

Yep, if you want to use it RISING edge, then you need to run all MSD boxes on all the ignition output channels.


Are you talking about the trailings?
The trailings have dedicated ignition output channels.


Yep, you don't need to change a thing.
Just install the MSD box between the stock ignitor and the coil, and you're all set.
No need to change settings.


-Ted

Comitatus

iTrader: (7)

Ted-

Thanks for your help and clarification. I went back and re-wired it in behind the ignitor on the leading coil. The Haltech is firing the ignitor, ignitor goes to the MSD box, then MSD box goes to the coil. Settings are left unchanged in the E6X(Constant Charge, Rising, and dwell set to 4.7ms).

Everything seems to running GREAT! I have ran it out to redline (8200 rpm) a few times and everything is firing well. Feels really good up there, and I definitely think it has made a difference in firing the rich AFR's.