pfc vs ems4
11-20-12, 10:27 PM
#1
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pfc vs ems4
The winter is coming and now its time to start planning some projects...
i've got a modified 87 TII (hybrid turbo, bigger injectors, etc...) and i'm currently running a rtek 1.8/NEO combination. It seems effective enough but my main issue is timing control. it knocks around 3k rpm if i'm leaning on it and im sure theirs more power on the table that could be had with finer timing adjustments on the top end. So a standalone is on my to-do list.
So far i like that the PFC comes with a good rotary base map, and people using the banzi kit have run it on 2gen rx7s with good results. The main issue i have with this is that their is no data logging
The AEM ems4 looks like the other option in my price range. This i think would take more setup work, but would net equal performance with the PFC along with data logging feature. Unlike s5 FC/FD rx7s, i'm still running the mechanical OMP, but i may be switching to totally premix anyway (and just a single turbo vs FD twins).
I plan on building a completely new engine harness, so regardless of which ecu i choose it is going to be about the same amount of physical work, just a little more setup time with the EMS4 to make up a base map. I also plan on swapping to a FD upper intake (and obviously the FD's TPS) making the PFC more accurate should i choose it.
anyone with helpful input on ether/both of these systems feel free to chime in
thanks
i've got a modified 87 TII (hybrid turbo, bigger injectors, etc...) and i'm currently running a rtek 1.8/NEO combination. It seems effective enough but my main issue is timing control. it knocks around 3k rpm if i'm leaning on it and im sure theirs more power on the table that could be had with finer timing adjustments on the top end. So a standalone is on my to-do list.
So far i like that the PFC comes with a good rotary base map, and people using the banzi kit have run it on 2gen rx7s with good results. The main issue i have with this is that their is no data logging
The AEM ems4 looks like the other option in my price range. This i think would take more setup work, but would net equal performance with the PFC along with data logging feature. Unlike s5 FC/FD rx7s, i'm still running the mechanical OMP, but i may be switching to totally premix anyway (and just a single turbo vs FD twins).
I plan on building a completely new engine harness, so regardless of which ecu i choose it is going to be about the same amount of physical work, just a little more setup time with the EMS4 to make up a base map. I also plan on swapping to a FD upper intake (and obviously the FD's TPS) making the PFC more accurate should i choose it.
anyone with helpful input on ether/both of these systems feel free to chime in
thanks
11-21-12, 07:25 AM
#2
It's not even a fair comparison. The EMS-4 offers many more features than the PFC.
- Real, programmable closed-loop idle and boost control
- Real, programmable knock control
- Traction slew control
- Anti-lag
- User defined aux outs
- CAN network support
- Etc, etc
- Real, programmable closed-loop idle and boost control
- Real, programmable knock control
- Traction slew control
- Anti-lag
- User defined aux outs
- CAN network support
- Etc, etc
11-21-12, 12:27 PM
#5
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Something else i've been thinking about:
Im fairly certain you could run a waste spark setup with ether ecu option, but i'm not sure if its a good idea as far as engine operation goes.
theoretically you could use one coil (http://i.pgcdn.com/pi/3/78/76/37876041_260.jpg) to run the leading plugs and another to run the trailing, but i'm not sure if it would cause issues (IE pre-ignition) under high boost/load conditions when the intake chamber is already reaching a high pressure without entering the engine's compression cycle.
something like a pair of those coils and a 4cyl "ignition module" could make this work very simply and effectively
Im fairly certain you could run a waste spark setup with ether ecu option, but i'm not sure if its a good idea as far as engine operation goes.
theoretically you could use one coil (http://i.pgcdn.com/pi/3/78/76/37876041_260.jpg) to run the leading plugs and another to run the trailing, but i'm not sure if it would cause issues (IE pre-ignition) under high boost/load conditions when the intake chamber is already reaching a high pressure without entering the engine's compression cycle.
something like a pair of those coils and a 4cyl "ignition module" could make this work very simply and effectively
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11-21-12, 10:11 PM
#8
Im confused on what you wanna do? You wanna run wasted spark on both leading and trailing?
Sounds to me your trying to complicate things.
If i were you id get the banzai adaptor and then pick up a AEM EMS 30-1800 which is a plug and play unit just like the power fc but has datalogging built into it.
I have a 30-1800 for sale if your interested.
THe 30-1800 v1 is a full standalone unit like the power fc but it does everything you could ever think of. THis blows the ems 4 out of the water as thats really only a piggyback system.
It also has 7 base maps to work with and yes they all work.
My unit will allow you to run any injector or sensor on the market and all you do is choose it in the wizard. You will be able to ditch the maf sensor and run map based and will work with all your sensors and coils (stock fc coils work fine for up to 450hp)
You will be able to plug this in choose a base map. choose your sensors if any are aftermarket and start the car and do timing and your done. Then tune
I honestly think this would work best for you. If you have any questions let me know I have lots of experience with aem ems and "ebturbo" is also very seasoned on aem ems.
GL
-Nate
Sounds to me your trying to complicate things.
If i were you id get the banzai adaptor and then pick up a AEM EMS 30-1800 which is a plug and play unit just like the power fc but has datalogging built into it.
I have a 30-1800 for sale if your interested.
THe 30-1800 v1 is a full standalone unit like the power fc but it does everything you could ever think of. THis blows the ems 4 out of the water as thats really only a piggyback system.
It also has 7 base maps to work with and yes they all work.
My unit will allow you to run any injector or sensor on the market and all you do is choose it in the wizard. You will be able to ditch the maf sensor and run map based and will work with all your sensors and coils (stock fc coils work fine for up to 450hp)
You will be able to plug this in choose a base map. choose your sensors if any are aftermarket and start the car and do timing and your done. Then tune
I honestly think this would work best for you. If you have any questions let me know I have lots of experience with aem ems and "ebturbo" is also very seasoned on aem ems.
GL
-Nate
11-21-12, 11:39 PM
#9
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The ems4 is not a piggyback in anyway....
Stock FC coils may be good to 450 when in new condition but relying on a original 27yr old electrical part? No thanks. Same goes for my reasoning in building a new engine harness.
Why not waste spark the leading and trailing? Obviously not lighting one rotor from the same coil (giving you no timing split)
Stock FC coils may be good to 450 when in new condition but relying on a original 27yr old electrical part? No thanks. Same goes for my reasoning in building a new engine harness.
Why not waste spark the leading and trailing? Obviously not lighting one rotor from the same coil (giving you no timing split)
11-22-12, 12:00 AM
#10
The 20year old fd coils work for 500hp levels just fine and they sit there heat soaking.
The fc coils blow fd coils out of the water.
You cannot compare a v1 and v2 to the ems4. The ems4 is like a piggyback in my opinion.
And if your talking about making a new harness then why are you contemplating on using the power fc?
I personally would never run wasted spark if i have the option as you will have better control of your coils and will offer your coils time to cool and charge
The fc coils blow fd coils out of the water.
You cannot compare a v1 and v2 to the ems4. The ems4 is like a piggyback in my opinion.
And if your talking about making a new harness then why are you contemplating on using the power fc?
I personally would never run wasted spark if i have the option as you will have better control of your coils and will offer your coils time to cool and charge
11-22-12, 07:53 AM
#11
You can't run the trailing ignition in wastespark because the "wasted" side will fire into the chamber as it's coming into the compression stroke. It simply can't be done.
The FC coils should be fine for what you want to do, but I tend to agree with you on everything being 20 years old, at best. If you want to upgrade as a matter of course, the AEM smart coils are a simple, all-in-one, high output option. Go with four of those and you need nothing else, other than proper plug wires. They will wire directly to the ECU of your choice. They've also been proven to support almost twice the power you're looking to make.
The FC coils should be fine for what you want to do, but I tend to agree with you on everything being 20 years old, at best. If you want to upgrade as a matter of course, the AEM smart coils are a simple, all-in-one, high output option. Go with four of those and you need nothing else, other than proper plug wires. They will wire directly to the ECU of your choice. They've also been proven to support almost twice the power you're looking to make.
11-23-12, 11:02 AM
#12
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The 20year old fd coils work for 500hp levels just fine and they sit there heat soaking.
Some 20yr old FD/FC coils may work fine, but id rather make a proactive move and build an ignition system so that i don't have to consider component failure should i have to trouble shoot some issue and be able to go to almost any local parts store and pick up replacement parts if need be
You cannot compare a v1 and v2 to the ems4. The ems4 is like a piggyback in my opinion.
the EMS4 is a v2 ecu without all the extra peripherals, my building philosophy follows the "less is more" and the "KISS" methods. i have no AC, power steering, power windows, power locks, etc... so a EMS4 would suit my build better then a PNP v1/2 because of its simplicity
And if your talking about making a new harness then why are you contemplating on using the power fc?
because the PFC has been widely used with good success on FDs/patched into FCs, I don't need a PC to manipulate it, apexi is known for quality products/the PFC is known for being fairly robust chunk of work, i'd rather not spend $300+ on a banzai adapter kit when i have the time/funds/competency to build an equal part at a fraction of a cost along with the satisfaction of doing it myself, the harness is original to the car (i bought the car bone stock in '04/car's DOM is 11/86) so again making a proactive move to eliminate future problem areas.
I personally would never run wasted spark if i have the option as you will have better control of your coils and will offer your coils time to cool and charge
I believe (I may be wrong) the leading coil on the FC is waste spark OE. the trailings are individual for obvious reasons that Ludwig stated
Saying that the coils need to "charge" is incorrect. look up "electrical inductance" on wikipedia and get yourself learned. Waste spark ignition systems have been used in many high RPM applications with out overheating (possibly a capacitor built into the igniter?). individual ignition would be ideal for the reasons you had stated (total spark control) but adds unnecessary complexity/cost to building the ignition system for my power goals. Really your right, i could stick with the stock ignition coils and setup but i would like to make 350+whp this spring, for future power goals i would like to see ~420whp on cleaned up stock ports (with a rebuilt and studded engine).
Some 20yr old FD/FC coils may work fine, but id rather make a proactive move and build an ignition system so that i don't have to consider component failure should i have to trouble shoot some issue and be able to go to almost any local parts store and pick up replacement parts if need be
You cannot compare a v1 and v2 to the ems4. The ems4 is like a piggyback in my opinion.
the EMS4 is a v2 ecu without all the extra peripherals, my building philosophy follows the "less is more" and the "KISS" methods. i have no AC, power steering, power windows, power locks, etc... so a EMS4 would suit my build better then a PNP v1/2 because of its simplicity
And if your talking about making a new harness then why are you contemplating on using the power fc?
because the PFC has been widely used with good success on FDs/patched into FCs, I don't need a PC to manipulate it, apexi is known for quality products/the PFC is known for being fairly robust chunk of work, i'd rather not spend $300+ on a banzai adapter kit when i have the time/funds/competency to build an equal part at a fraction of a cost along with the satisfaction of doing it myself, the harness is original to the car (i bought the car bone stock in '04/car's DOM is 11/86) so again making a proactive move to eliminate future problem areas.
I personally would never run wasted spark if i have the option as you will have better control of your coils and will offer your coils time to cool and charge
I believe (I may be wrong) the leading coil on the FC is waste spark OE. the trailings are individual for obvious reasons that Ludwig stated
Saying that the coils need to "charge" is incorrect. look up "electrical inductance" on wikipedia and get yourself learned. Waste spark ignition systems have been used in many high RPM applications with out overheating (possibly a capacitor built into the igniter?). individual ignition would be ideal for the reasons you had stated (total spark control) but adds unnecessary complexity/cost to building the ignition system for my power goals. Really your right, i could stick with the stock ignition coils and setup but i would like to make 350+whp this spring, for future power goals i would like to see ~420whp on cleaned up stock ports (with a rebuilt and studded engine).
11-23-12, 01:19 PM
#13
When you're reading Wikipedia you're probably reading about piston engines running in wastespark. A rotary running in wastespark will automatically have twice the duty cycle of a piston engine, since the wastespark coil needs to fire once every 180* of crank rotation versus once every 360* with a piston engine.
The stock leading coils like 4+ ms charge to build an adequate spark. A rotary, turning 6000 rpm, has a full cycle time of 10ms (one revolution). So your wastespark coil, charged to 4ms, firing twice per revolution, is running at 80% duty at only 6000 rpm. At 8000 rpm, you only have 3.75ms available per revolution. At 8k 3ms puts you at 80% duty. If you have thoughts of running one of the GM LSx coils in wastespark, forget it. They like 5+ms charge time and need to be run in direct-fire if you plan to get a decent spark out of them.
Four-channel is no more time consuming or difficult to wire up than wastespark and there are real benefits. If you're ECU allows it and you're building a harness anyway, there is no reason to not run direct-fire.
The stock leading coils like 4+ ms charge to build an adequate spark. A rotary, turning 6000 rpm, has a full cycle time of 10ms (one revolution). So your wastespark coil, charged to 4ms, firing twice per revolution, is running at 80% duty at only 6000 rpm. At 8000 rpm, you only have 3.75ms available per revolution. At 8k 3ms puts you at 80% duty. If you have thoughts of running one of the GM LSx coils in wastespark, forget it. They like 5+ms charge time and need to be run in direct-fire if you plan to get a decent spark out of them.
Four-channel is no more time consuming or difficult to wire up than wastespark and there are real benefits. If you're ECU allows it and you're building a harness anyway, there is no reason to not run direct-fire.
11-25-12, 12:44 PM
#17
Where you buying them? We have them for a $308 for the set.
The truck coils, with the heatsink, are the coil everyone accepts as the hot coil. They have auto-ignite issues. They're pretty much not even a consideration in the domestic performance arena now. The LS1 coils are just plain weak. The real LS2 coils, square, no heatsink, work well but are hard to find.
The truck coils, with the heatsink, are the coil everyone accepts as the hot coil. They have auto-ignite issues. They're pretty much not even a consideration in the domestic performance arena now. The LS1 coils are just plain weak. The real LS2 coils, square, no heatsink, work well but are hard to find.
11-25-12, 05:07 PM
#18
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Where you buying them? We have them for a $308 for the set.
The truck coils, with the heatsink, are the coil everyone accepts as the hot coil. They have auto-ignite issues. They're pretty much not even a consideration in the domestic performance arena now. The LS1 coils are just plain weak. The real LS2 coils, square, no heatsink, work well but are hard to find.
The truck coils, with the heatsink, are the coil everyone accepts as the hot coil. They have auto-ignite issues. They're pretty much not even a consideration in the domestic performance arena now. The LS1 coils are just plain weak. The real LS2 coils, square, no heatsink, work well but are hard to find.
53.79ea rockauto for ACdelco LS2/LS7 square coils
whats wrong with LS2/LS7 round coils?
11-26-12, 07:15 AM
#20
The round truck coil with the heatsink, or D585 as it's also know, has an auto-ignite "feature" built-in that keeps it from being over-dwelled. Like I said, the domestic performance guys pretty much swore off this coil long ago despite it having the ability to output a decent spark. Somewhere north of 5ms dwell, the coils will discharge before the spark instant to prevent the coil from drawing too much amperage and being damaged. This causes uncontrolled spark adavnce. Not a good thing. There's some good reading on the subject on yellowbullet.com.
11-26-12, 05:23 PM
#23
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i'm going to take a look at the wiring diagram (i would assume having 4 pins that it has a built in igniter like the others)
best part is theyre only like $30 each lol
best part is theyre only like $30 each lol
11-29-12, 01:26 PM
#25
I would say either go with the AEM Smart Coils or the stock FC coils since they are both easy to come by and both are very capable for their respective use. If you plan on making 400+hp and start having issues with FC coils, then you should have the money to spend on AEM Smarts.