Ten Pounds of S*** in a Five Pound Bag My Big Turbo Streetcar Build
08-03-16, 06:56 AM
#26
I am jealous that you paid so little for that
I paid that + $200 + S&H for an afco scirocco heat exchanger for my water to air intercooler. Sorry if I missed it, but which water pump are you using? I am using the old bosch (cobra?) pump, which has 1/2" ports. Currently considering upgrading the intercooler, coolant tank, lines (to 3/4" or 1") and pump; or going back to an air to air intercooler in some sort of vmount configuration.
08-03-16, 07:05 AM
#28
I was supposed to have the car on the dyno to tune high boost last Sunday but the dyno owner got in a scooter accident and broke his leG he night before. If he's not recovered soon, I'll have to find another dyno to tune on, but I'd REALLY like to use his Dynapak to do some steady state tuning. The car goes good on 16psi though.
Last edited by Shainiac; 08-03-16 at 07:08 AM.
08-03-16, 09:48 AM
#30
I believe it's approx half a gallon. I don't really have issues with heat soak, so I don't think it's that necessary. Having a large tank offers a buffer, but ultimately if you don't have the HX area, temps are going to climb. It just makes a convenient place to fill and bleed the coolant and provides a little head pressure for the pump inlet. I rarely drive the car for less than 45 minutes at a time, and even then, lots of stop signs and lights. I rarely see over 15F over ambient. Highest IAT I've seen under boost was 105F. If the car's been in traffic for a while, IATs will typically drop in boost. My guess is the intercooled air cools down the heat soaked IAT sensor.
08-03-16, 10:39 AM
#31
Licensed Zip Tie Mechanic
I ended up doing this for my tank - a modified aluminum 1/2 gallon fuel tank with some 1/2"NPT bungs welded in so I can have barb fittings and a ball valve drain, plus it came with AN fittings if I ever want to go that way in the future.
08-03-16, 02:14 PM
#32
Thanks.
I believe it's approx half a gallon. I don't really have issues with heat soak, so I don't think it's that necessary. Having a large tank offers a buffer, but ultimately if you don't have the HX area, temps are going to climb. It just makes a convenient place to fill and bleed the coolant and provides a little head pressure for the pump inlet. I rarely drive the car for less than 45 minutes at a time, and even then, lots of stop signs and lights. I rarely see over 15F over ambient. Highest IAT I've seen under boost was 105F. If the car's been in traffic for a while, IATs will typically drop in boost. My guess is the intercooled air cools down the heat soaked IAT sensor.
I believe it's approx half a gallon. I don't really have issues with heat soak, so I don't think it's that necessary. Having a large tank offers a buffer, but ultimately if you don't have the HX area, temps are going to climb. It just makes a convenient place to fill and bleed the coolant and provides a little head pressure for the pump inlet. I rarely drive the car for less than 45 minutes at a time, and even then, lots of stop signs and lights. I rarely see over 15F over ambient. Highest IAT I've seen under boost was 105F. If the car's been in traffic for a while, IATs will typically drop in boost. My guess is the intercooled air cools down the heat soaked IAT sensor.
At the beginning of summer (2016), I got to see +180F IAT after multiple 1-3 gear WOT pulls (working on boost controller), YIKES!
Anyways, good luck with your project, its amazing how similar our setups were at some point
08-03-16, 02:30 PM
#34
I would recommend a plastic tank if you can. One thing I noticed is that the water-air intercoolers heat soak badly when this pump is off because the intercooler is in the bay. I would regularly see 40-50F increases immediately after sitting at the gas station for 5 minutes. The plastic tank is less prone to heat soak and gold-wrapping my intercooler definitely helped reflect some heat. I also have the pump wired to switched 12V so if i leave the key on while getting gas, the pump continues to run with the engine off. Megasquirt also has an option to keep the fan on while the engine is off, but I haven't seen a need since temps drop back to normal within a minute or so of driving.
08-03-16, 04:06 PM
#35
I would recommend a plastic tank if you can. One thing I noticed is that the water-air intercoolers heat soak badly when this pump is off because the intercooler is in the bay. I would regularly see 40-50F increases immediately after sitting at the gas station for 5 minutes. The plastic tank is less prone to heat soak and gold-wrapping my intercooler definitely helped reflect some heat. I also have the pump wired to switched 12V so if i leave the key on while getting gas, the pump continues to run with the engine off. Megasquirt also has an option to keep the fan on while the engine is off, but I haven't seen a need since temps drop back to normal within a minute or so
08-04-16, 06:26 AM
#36
Licensed Zip Tie Mechanic
I would recommend a plastic tank if you can. One thing I noticed is that the water-air intercoolers heat soak badly when this pump is off because the intercooler is in the bay. I would regularly see 40-50F increases immediately after sitting at the gas station for 5 minutes. The plastic tank is less prone to heat soak and gold-wrapping my intercooler definitely helped reflect some heat. I also have the pump wired to switched 12V so if i leave the key on while getting gas, the pump continues to run with the engine off. Megasquirt also has an option to keep the fan on while the engine is off, but I haven't seen a need since temps drop back to normal within a minute or so of driving.
Here's the tank I used:
1/2 Gallon Aluminum Fuel Tank
The opening is large enough to throw in some ice as needed, and there's ball valve drain to take out some liquid volume when putting in ice, so it's basically a mini ice box. LOL
08-04-16, 06:27 AM
#37
Licensed Zip Tie Mechanic
I'll post it up soon - my battery is still in the engine bay, so this tank is going where the overflow tank would have been up in the nose by the hood release, which is why I went with a smaller tank, then cut the corner off it to fit with the curve of the car! We're just fine tuning the fit and it should be installed this weekend (I hope).
08-11-16, 01:49 AM
#38
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
This is by far my favorite FC build. GREAT ideas, keep up the good work!
08-11-16, 06:58 AM
#39
I haven't done much with the car since I got it driving a few weeks ago. It's been super reliable so far. It starts up faster and easier than any rotary I've ever owned, especially when hot. It idles great and never stalls in traffic. There are definitely some small drivability issues with my tune that I'm figuring out as I go along. Just little lean areas at certain parts of the cruise map ect. I did order a pair of ID1000s to try and see if that helps drivability and idle AFRs. The 2200cc injectors are at a pretty low pulsewidth and Id like it to idle a bit leaner so the people behind me at the stoplight don't pass out.
The car SHOULD be on the dyno this weekend. It was going to get dyno'd 2 weeks ago, but the owner shop owner broke his leg the night before I was scheduled. Going to be tuning it myself on a Dynapack which I'm excited about. If you've even had the pleasure of using one, you'll never want to use a Mustang or Dynojet again. It's a hub-style dyno that can do steady state tuning. You can hit literally every cell in your fuel map and the thing is QUIET and doesn't have to coast down. They're pricey, but if you have one local, use it!
I did add a Turbosmart dual-port wastegate actuator and Mac 4-port solenoid. It picked up quite a bit of low end by being able to keep the gate shut. Its trickier to tune though because I need the gate held shut for more RPM in lower gears to get boost up, but in higher gears, it wants to overboost. I need to get closed-loop boost dialed in and it should be good.
With 4 x 2200cc/min injectors, Im around 48% duty cycle on 17psi with 11:1 AFR and 93oct/100% water injection. My math puts this around 475whp by fuel mass, not sure how accurate that is, but it feels quick.
Surprisingly, the thing still hooks well. First gear is pretty worthless, but second only spins a little and third only if I hit imperfections in the road.
08-11-16, 07:00 PM
#40
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Ahh, this is why I'll be using ID1300s and ID1700x's for my setup. On e85, it maxes out at around 400whp worth of fuel though, which is plenty for my little 54 Trim Compressor @ 12-17psi.
08-11-16, 07:04 PM
#41
That's definitely what you want with E85. Ethanol isn't available in my area, which is why I'm doing pump gas and water injection. If ethanol was available, I would just keep my 2200s and have them cleaned every winter. Even with the ID1000 primaries, I should have enough gas for 600whp. That's about all my Walbro 400 will do too though.
08-12-16, 05:24 AM
#42
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
That's definitely what you want with E85. Ethanol isn't available in my area, which is why I'm doing pump gas and water injection. If ethanol was available, I would just keep my 2200s and have them cleaned every winter. Even with the ID1000 primaries, I should have enough gas for 600whp. That's about all my Walbro 400 will do too though.
A single Walbro 400 (I'm assuming gas-only Walbro 400-Series), can handle MAYBE 450whp worth of fuel when you factor in higher turbo pressures and such.
I plan on running an Injector Dynamics fuel pump @ 61psi (420kPa) base pressure and 20psi max boost. That pump can handle 680LPH @ 80psi, so I'm good to go, but the Walbro can't handle that... Two could!
I'd drop in a second pump, use a Hobb's Switch (or MAP control or PWM control it) to handle the extra fuel for 600whp on pump gas. I'm sorry e85 isn't available. I honestly won't go anywhere over 15psi with pump gas. Just don't trust it at all! $2 a gallon and 7 stations within 30mi of me for e85...I'll deal with the **** fuel economy for Brap-Safety.
08-12-16, 07:46 AM
#43
Lucky you with the E85. There is one station in my STATE! That Coachman surge tank looks nice, too. I dont see any prices on their website, are they reasonable?
The standard Walbro 400 is capable of more than I am trying to make. It flows 400lph at 0 psi manifold pressure (3 bar base) and 325lph at 30 bar manifold (3 bar base).
325L of fuel is 8.8 pounds per minute. With a 10:1 AFR, thats enough fuel for 88 lb/min of air, which is roughly 680 whp on a rotary.
That said, I agree that it wouldnt be safe to run low fuel on a circuit, surge tank is the only way to go. But, if I went surge tank, Id lose my fuel sending unit which is frankly more important to me as I daily drive the car. FWI, the Walbro 400 E85 flows 350lph at 30psi manifold and is good for 730whp gas or 540hp on E85.
I do have fuel pressure monitoring and will be watching it on the dyno to make sure my fuel pressures arent dropping up top. If I had to, I would go with dual 400s and do a Full-PWM closed loop fuel system. My ECU can run it right now, but I dont have any issues with high fuel temps or noise, so its one less thing to worry about at the moment. I believe there is also a failsafe feature on the Megasquirt that can monitor fuel pressure to take action of the fuel pressure deviates from what itd expect. Usually that means cutting spark for a brief amount of time. The same feature cuts spark if AFRs go lean of if the water methanol tank sloshes and uncovers the level sensor. Both have saved my *** multiple times.
The standard Walbro 400 is capable of more than I am trying to make. It flows 400lph at 0 psi manifold pressure (3 bar base) and 325lph at 30 bar manifold (3 bar base).
325L of fuel is 8.8 pounds per minute. With a 10:1 AFR, thats enough fuel for 88 lb/min of air, which is roughly 680 whp on a rotary.
That said, I agree that it wouldnt be safe to run low fuel on a circuit, surge tank is the only way to go. But, if I went surge tank, Id lose my fuel sending unit which is frankly more important to me as I daily drive the car. FWI, the Walbro 400 E85 flows 350lph at 30psi manifold and is good for 730whp gas or 540hp on E85.
I do have fuel pressure monitoring and will be watching it on the dyno to make sure my fuel pressures arent dropping up top. If I had to, I would go with dual 400s and do a Full-PWM closed loop fuel system. My ECU can run it right now, but I dont have any issues with high fuel temps or noise, so its one less thing to worry about at the moment. I believe there is also a failsafe feature on the Megasquirt that can monitor fuel pressure to take action of the fuel pressure deviates from what itd expect. Usually that means cutting spark for a brief amount of time. The same feature cuts spark if AFRs go lean of if the water methanol tank sloshes and uncovers the level sensor. Both have saved my *** multiple times.
I really hope you have a Coachman Performance Internal Surge Tank (IST) for your car. Mine uses a Walbro 416 (e85) fuel pump and has ~1.5L of capacity, which is plenty of fuel for hard cornering. Tell Winfield I sent you. He's amazing to deal with. Either Bosch 044, Walbro 400, or Walbro 416 (e85) pumps can be used in his system and he'll adapt to your needs. ****, maybe I should send mine back and have him double the pump in the IST!
A single Walbro 400 (I'm assuming gas-only Walbro 400-Series), can handle MAYBE 450whp worth of fuel when you factor in higher turbo pressures and such.
I plan on running an Injector Dynamics fuel pump @ 61psi (420kPa) base pressure and 20psi max boost. That pump can handle 680LPH @ 80psi, so I'm good to go, but the Walbro can't handle that... Two could!
I'd drop in a second pump, use a Hobb's Switch (or MAP control or PWM control it) to handle the extra fuel for 600whp on pump gas. I'm sorry e85 isn't available. I honestly won't go anywhere over 15psi with pump gas. Just don't trust it at all! $2 a gallon and 7 stations within 30mi of me for e85...I'll deal with the **** fuel economy for Brap-Safety.
A single Walbro 400 (I'm assuming gas-only Walbro 400-Series), can handle MAYBE 450whp worth of fuel when you factor in higher turbo pressures and such.
I plan on running an Injector Dynamics fuel pump @ 61psi (420kPa) base pressure and 20psi max boost. That pump can handle 680LPH @ 80psi, so I'm good to go, but the Walbro can't handle that... Two could!
I'd drop in a second pump, use a Hobb's Switch (or MAP control or PWM control it) to handle the extra fuel for 600whp on pump gas. I'm sorry e85 isn't available. I honestly won't go anywhere over 15psi with pump gas. Just don't trust it at all! $2 a gallon and 7 stations within 30mi of me for e85...I'll deal with the **** fuel economy for Brap-Safety.
08-12-16, 08:34 AM
#44
Thanks, I really appreciate it.
I haven't done much with the car since I got it driving a few weeks ago. It's been super reliable so far. It starts up faster and easier than any rotary I've ever owned, especially when hot. It idles great and never stalls in traffic. There are definitely some small drivability issues with my tune that I'm figuring out as I go along. Just little lean areas at certain parts of the cruise map ect. I did order a pair of ID1000s to try and see if that helps drivability and idle AFRs. The 2200cc injectors are at a pretty low pulsewidth and Id like it to idle a bit leaner so the people behind me at the stoplight don't pass out.
The car SHOULD be on the dyno this weekend. It was going to get dyno'd 2 weeks ago, but the owner shop owner broke his leg the night before I was scheduled. Going to be tuning it myself on a Dynapack which I'm excited about. If you've even had the pleasure of using one, you'll never want to use a Mustang or Dynojet again. It's a hub-style dyno that can do steady state tuning. You can hit literally every cell in your fuel map and the thing is QUIET and doesn't have to coast down. They're pricey, but if you have one local, use it!
I did add a Turbosmart dual-port wastegate actuator and Mac 4-port solenoid. It picked up quite a bit of low end by being able to keep the gate shut. Its trickier to tune though because I need the gate held shut for more RPM in lower gears to get boost up, but in higher gears, it wants to overboost. I need to get closed-loop boost dialed in and it should be good.
With 4 x 2200cc/min injectors, Im around 48% duty cycle on 17psi with 11:1 AFR and 93oct/100% water injection. My math puts this around 475whp by fuel mass, not sure how accurate that is, but it feels quick.
Surprisingly, the thing still hooks well. First gear is pretty worthless, but second only spins a little and third only if I hit imperfections in the road.
08-12-16, 08:38 AM
#45
Thanks, but unfortunately it's not getting dyno'd this weekend. The weather forecast is mid 90s F and very high humidity the next 3 days. The air literally feels like soup. I'm almost at sea level and the Density Altitude yesterday was 3500'! That definitely helps reduce boost creep lol. My open loop boost control is hitting about 1.5 psi less than a week ago. I'm ready for fall!
08-12-16, 11:50 AM
#46
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Check out the Radium Engineering Fuel Damper (https://www.radiumauto.com/Fuel-Puls...Kits-P759.aspx) to help steady the large injector pulses on your fuel rail. I planned one primary (Tee'd at firewall side), one secondary (Tee'd towards front of car), and my SX Performance flex fuel compatible FPR w/ 0-150psi pressure sensor on it's 1/8" NPT port.
That's three diaphragms. I hope the damn thing works. Three is better than 1! At the very least, I'll run one on the primary rail (XR -8AN) and the FPR works as the other.
Gotta check out my build, throw some experience and insight my way!
That's three diaphragms. I hope the damn thing works. Three is better than 1! At the very least, I'll run one on the primary rail (XR -8AN) and the FPR works as the other.
Gotta check out my build, throw some experience and insight my way!
08-12-16, 11:56 AM
#47
I have a damper on the primary rail very similar to the Radium OEM-style damper here
I still see some oscillation in the fuel pressure at low rpms and low pulsewidth, but not as bad as I've seen of other people's data logs. I'm also using PTFE stainless braided line which has no deflection. I also have a 10bar transducer on my Aeromotive regulator. My ID 1000s should be here this weekend and I'll see if that helps drivability. In the mean time, I carpet bombed the high vacuum cells of my Fuel VE map with extra fuel so it doesn't swing lean. I'd rather have it oscillate from 14s-12s under light cruise than 14-18s and stumble.
I still see some oscillation in the fuel pressure at low rpms and low pulsewidth, but not as bad as I've seen of other people's data logs. I'm also using PTFE stainless braided line which has no deflection. I also have a 10bar transducer on my Aeromotive regulator. My ID 1000s should be here this weekend and I'll see if that helps drivability. In the mean time, I carpet bombed the high vacuum cells of my Fuel VE map with extra fuel so it doesn't swing lean. I'd rather have it oscillate from 14s-12s under light cruise than 14-18s and stumble.
08-12-16, 05:28 PM
#48
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i am running 1000cc /2200cc in my setup love them so far. I never got data sheet with mine so I didn't know what dead times to use. Would love to see what your injector setup menu looks like.
I have seen my duty cycle in the 70% range at 24psi on a s366 so I am definitely moving some air. lol
I have seen my duty cycle in the 70% range at 24psi on a s366 so I am definitely moving some air. lol
08-12-16, 05:48 PM
#49
Darren, I'll try to screen grab my my injector settings. I'm using the ID2000 settings. I believe the 13.2V dead time is .55ms. I put the car in batch fore and changed between 2 and 4 squirts per cycle and the AFRs didn't change a bit. So, I would assume those dead times are correct. I still can't get it to idle well at 1000rpm below 12:1 AFR. I dunno of its the porting or the injectors.
08-15-16, 07:14 AM
#50
So, I swapped in the ID1000s on Saturday, went to clip on the connectors, and came to find out that the ID1000 have a different style connector to the ID2000.
I put my 2200cc injectors back in for the time being, but I have made some headway getting the car more drivable.
I did a 100 miles trip in the car late Saturday night, all interstate, averaging above 70 mph. At low load and steady state, I was still getting the very erratic AFR Ive been getting since I started the build. With the cruise control set (it still works!) AFRs would swing from 14-18-14-18 almost rhythmically. After I arrived, I reviewed my data log and noticed something interesting. If I zoomed all the way out, my TPS signal was fuzzy. If I monitored TPSdot (the change in TPS per second), I could see that even though the cruise was set and vacuum was relatively constant, the ECU thought the TPS was rapidly going up and down ever so slightly.
Because Accel Enrichment is based on the CHANGE in TPS, it was being engaged at steady state part throttle. This was causing fuel to be unnecessarily added.
I increased the Accel Enrichement threshold to engage higher than what I saw in the noise and the car drives MUCH better now. It still idles a bit rich, but Im not so sure its the injectors now.
I also swapped to a MUCH larger air filter and moved it up behind the headlight. I had been using a 5 long K&N that was previously on my GT40R. That filter must have been a big restriction because my open loop boost control settings are way off now. It also seems like its creeping more. I turned boost control off and it hit 17 psi in SECOND gear. Im not sure what itll do in 3rd or 4th. That is with an ambient temp of 73F and an IAT of 85F.
I put my 2200cc injectors back in for the time being, but I have made some headway getting the car more drivable.
I did a 100 miles trip in the car late Saturday night, all interstate, averaging above 70 mph. At low load and steady state, I was still getting the very erratic AFR Ive been getting since I started the build. With the cruise control set (it still works!) AFRs would swing from 14-18-14-18 almost rhythmically. After I arrived, I reviewed my data log and noticed something interesting. If I zoomed all the way out, my TPS signal was fuzzy. If I monitored TPSdot (the change in TPS per second), I could see that even though the cruise was set and vacuum was relatively constant, the ECU thought the TPS was rapidly going up and down ever so slightly.
Because Accel Enrichment is based on the CHANGE in TPS, it was being engaged at steady state part throttle. This was causing fuel to be unnecessarily added.
I increased the Accel Enrichement threshold to engage higher than what I saw in the noise and the car drives MUCH better now. It still idles a bit rich, but Im not so sure its the injectors now.
I also swapped to a MUCH larger air filter and moved it up behind the headlight. I had been using a 5 long K&N that was previously on my GT40R. That filter must have been a big restriction because my open loop boost control settings are way off now. It also seems like its creeping more. I turned boost control off and it hit 17 psi in SECOND gear. Im not sure what itll do in 3rd or 4th. That is with an ambient temp of 73F and an IAT of 85F.
Last edited by Shainiac; 08-15-16 at 07:17 AM.