stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

ya... I had to order the flange for the BOV. It was like 10 or 20 bucks.

So your AI pump only pushes 30 psi? and your feeding TWO big ol' M10s with that one pump?

I tried all kinds of combination of nozzles and pumps. I can tell you that no matter what volume you put after the turbo, you won't get the results you want until you put a nozzle pre turbo. It's basically just a detonation deterrent at this point.

Also, you won't get the results you want unless you put a high pressure pump feeding the pre-turbo nozzle. That high pressure pump will really atomize the injectant well!!!

I use the 150psi devil's own pump. it feeds both nozzles.

Do you think you can get better AIT under vacuum with different intake tubing?

I'm glad to see you progress with this. It it definitely fun to experiment with it.

BDC

No, there's what's called a 'TurnOn' LED that I've got mounted next to my boost gauge on the a-pillar that fades on red and then turns bright green when head pressure hits 30psi. It's a way of visually indicating when the pump is first trickling on then ramping up to 30+psi. The system itself gets to way over 200psi.

I understand. Already covered. Used this same existing system of mine with great success a couple of years ago.

Doubt it.

Heck yes it is!!! It's fun.

B

BDC

Update - It was right at 60*F today here in DFW past noon time. I removed the 4" exhaust dryer ducting and fashioned up the new turbo inlet duct from that 4" flexible joint tubing from Home Depot Motorsports and Racing Development. I used three sections of it. I wrapped it in an insulation wrap (that looks like real thick aluminum tape) that's air-tight. Stuck the air filter back outside again. No change at all in cruising air temps once things reached equilibrium. Cruising IAT's are 107-110*F; about 45-50* higher than ambient as was the case prior. I'm going to get a roll of Thermo-Tec Thermo Shield and wrap it up in that to see if it makes a difference or not. Doubt it will but it will dress it up some atleast.

http://www.thermotec.com/thermo-shield.html



B

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

is the turnOn LED something you wired together? or is it an out-of-the box unit?
I am about to install some warning lights and an on/off switch for my AI system, maybe I can implement that...

BDC

It's part of the overall kit. It's wired into the head of the pump.

B

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

gotcha. I have a pressure switch wired into mine. I am then, wiring an LED to that to let me know if the system is clogged.

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

I believe a lot of your higher intake temp while cruising is related to the charge pipe picking up heat off the radiator. There is a lot to learn in this area no doubt. Here is my latest

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

Just an idea I was thinking about cruising temps and what not. BDC: The air being 45-50* higher than ambient by the time it gets to the AIT sensor means that something has to be seriously heating it up FAST. From my own tests (feeling the left and right side of the intercooler) it seems as though the hot side of the IC get REALLY hot, even when just cruising. (I could only imagine at your much higher boost levels.)

Anyways, my plan with my e11v2, was to basically wire up a intercooler fan (but instead of a fan it be a SMALL nozzel preturbo) that turns on and spays its super fine mist when the AIT gets to XXX*. This I would think would cool the turbo itself down considerably and wouldn't require that much actual AI to be used? The problem (again I am just assuming, I hope you can confirm) with the high intake temps are mainly the heat soak of the turbo itself over long periods of time. If you have the massive AI nozzels cooling when at higher boost, AND you are basically negative heat soaking (or managing the heat soak of the turbo) the turbo with the small pre turbo AIT regulated spray, I don't think the turbo would ever be able to get really hot and cause the pre-turbo injection to be on long. In my house/apartment in the summer when it is 100+ degrees outside, if we keep the temps low at a cool 70, it is easier for our air conditioner to MAINTAIN (and never get warm), than if we set it to 80, let it get hot in the house and it has to work harder each time to catch the raising temps.

(edit: So now I guess this system would require 3 nozzels, one really small pre pre turbo, one small pre turbo, and the normal post turbo. I see possible problems with the really small and small pre turbo coming on at the same time when AITs are hot, and you enter boost, but I would think a simple relay setup of some kind could easily avoid that?)

Along with getting all the heat soak you possibly can out of the system, I think this might be a possible solution?

Just throwing the idea out there to hopefully be tested. Keep up the amazing work BDC, and thank you for sharing all your findings.

~Tweak

(update : Also one last question: Is your turbo water cooled? Would that possibly help combat turbo heat soak?)

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

hehe one last idea. What about using a large 1 way check valve or something like the synchronic BOVs where when in vac the BOV is open and you could suck in some cooler ambient air while cruising instead of sucking it across the hot turbo fins? I again don't know if it is true or not, but they claim even more increased response from not having the restriction from the turbo. (I don't really buy it because the turbo is always spinning but what evers.)

(and no, I never sleep)

enzo250

On one of my race cars i datalog air temps before and after intercooler.

Before temps are just shy of 300 degrees F..

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

[QUOTE=1Revvin7;8854819]I believe a lot of your higher intake temp while cruising is related to the charge pipe picking up heat off the radiator. There is a lot to learn in this area no doubt. Here is my latest [QUOTE]

For those who aren't a member over at NP, I don't think the image shows up:



EDIT: Wait, NVM maybe my computer was having a moment.....

Looks good Brian! I'd think a pre-turbo nozzle would be a great addition to the system. I'm thinking of adding a 175cc up front in my setup next year, but want to continue with the single nozzle for now, and turn the second one on at the dyno to see some results.

BDC

I may wind up adding one per Julio's suggestion. He brought it up on Turbobuick.com. Would be pretty simple to do it plus I've already got a spot where I can stick the sucker.

B

AlexG13B

iTrader: (7)

Just do it B! Ima do it as well

ZAN_TUNING

iTrader: (1)

go pre-turbo... we've been telling you about this for years! ... but that was with water injection lol doooo it!!!!!!

having both will seriously help... get back to 20+ psi out of that damn T70!!!! we wanna see 550rwhp on pump gas B!!!! haha

BDC

Yeah yeah yeah alright fine I'll do it. I'll add a single M1 to the front of the turbo. Can't hurt.

B

SENZA PARI

I would definitely run an intercooler to reduce your charge temps. The killer of rotaries is heat. Everything you can do to reduce the heat will help... It looks as though you have plenty or room, so why not? Especially considering the power levels you're talking about.

Will you be injecting methanol or water? A mix? The cooling effect takes place in the combustion chamber, so injecting them pre turbo or away from the throttle body will not really help anything. Best place would be to inject pre-TB, as you currently have it set up.

As for a BOV, mount it on the inside of the bend prior to the TB.

Good luck!

BDC

I don't like front mounted intercoolers. I think they're a completely stupid design. I also don't think I'll need it due to the particulars of my setup.

70/30 to 65/35 ratio of gasoline to methyl alcohol, from two separate systems (EFI and AI), at 15psi+ and above. Already have a history of having done it with a 60-1HIFI on a stock top mounted intercooler to 26psi of boost.

I disagree with part of the notion concerning nozzle placement. I believe having a very small volume of alcohol pre-turbo will help. Anything around 70*F and higher air temps and the alcohol will flash into a gas, pulling heat out of the surrounding air due to its high latent heat of evapouration.

Thanks for the suggestion. Still haven't figured out where the hell to do it but I'm considering the opposite side at one of the two 45* bends near the turbo discharge.

B

AnthonyNYC

iTrader: (3)

BDC, glad you swapped out that duct. I've seen that get swallowed when real boost hits....

Ken Scheepers and others that run all methanol in the modified class went back to intercoolers. I agree with Enzo...

From Ken Scheepers...
Consequently, I have made changes to the turbo combination and gone back to what I know works. This combination will be tested in Aruba for the first time in a few weeks and I am very optimistic the Nuclear Banana will back to equal or better performance, especially with the intercooler that takes the 443 degree (F) air leaving the turbo and reducing it down to 170 degrees entering the new Gato Performance intake manifold. Depending on the air temperatures we will experience for the night racing, these temperatures may improve. One thing is for sure, the engine uses a lot less fuel than it used to, to make the same or slightly better power.


Anthony

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

congrats to all on a very interesting thread. interesting because to many of us we are dealing w the unknown. many of course is not all and some here have already done the no IC or pre turbo injection... for the rest of us we are interested and merely theorizing... i fall into the latter category.

that said... i had to laugh about one of my good buddy's comments about alcohol pre turbo having no downside. can you say "explosion?" who will be first on the board to blow his entire intake system into pieces? i can see water preturbo but fuel preturbo? what happens when the BOV opens and spews tons of volume of air/fuel into the engine compartment? answer.... i don't know but i don't like the possible options.

on another matter... no IC. i can see the less volume, less lag, less front weight, less clutter but ICs work all the time (maybe not the T2 model) to reduce BTUs into the engine and they really work hard under boost. i subscribe to the every little bit helps concept as to reducing IATs into the turbo'd rotary. and it is more than a little bit... my IC takes about 130 degrees out of the IAT. add that to my alcohol and you have serious cooling.

thanks Anthony for the Scheepers quote. Cosmo on my 3rd gen thread is saying that Aquamist is saying (inadmissable, heresay) that there is a "sweet spot" re IAT (approx 86 F). while i have great respect for AQ i differ on this point. while the 86 F number might be a good IAT for water to mix a bit w the charge air the real benefit for water injection is in the combustion chamber where it's immemse latent heat can be unlocked.

i run methanol and it flashes at just about any temperature. the cooler the better w re to IAT.

just a couple other observations....

brian, i think you have really made a major contribution as to quantifying what can be done by relocating the air intake out of the eng compartment.... 40F!!!!! that's a big WOW and it is pretty much free and not subject to malfunction.... unless your filter gets water soaked. i run something similar to the Pettit setup for my twin TO4s and due to your work here will be relocating before the snow melts.

also, it appears your nozzles are pretty close to the TB. i would move them upstream 10-12 inches to get a larger headstart on the IAT cooling process.

oh, and you want your BOV to be on the inside of a curve so as not to screw up the flow.

hc

enzo250

I think that's stupid..... But i guess we all have our opinions..

Heat is no good.. And with a turbo your blowing hot air into your engine..
methanol will definitely cool it down but your going to need large amounts to really cool it and even then it won't cool as good as a proper intercooler.

Also a thing to remember is when trying to make the most power you want more air, well you can only flow so much and when that area is filled with liquid that area gets smaller.


BDC your setup will greatly improve with an intercooler.
Especially if you plan to run alot of boost.
If your only going to run a little bit of boost you'll get away with it but it's not the ideal way..

People should not be thinking they can remove their intercoolers as this is not the answer...

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

ALL of us running no IC have seen much LOWER AIT's with only AI under boost. To reduce charge temps, AI is the best way. Top mounts heat soak, front mounts raise water temps (that's not helping to reduce heat), v -mounts require ducting and reverse vent hoods to be functional.


The cooling effect of your charge temps takes place in the intake tubing. The cooling effect of your EGTs takes place in the combustion chamber. There are two theories you have jumbled into one.

There are two main reasons people use AI:
1. Insurance. To prevent detonation. This happens in the combustion chamber. The general school of thought here is that detonation is bad, water is the best deterrent.

2. Fun. To cool the intake charge. This happens before the air and fuel mix together. The school of thought here is that cold air makes lots of power. Methanol is very cold.


As I said earlier, right at the TB is a BAD place to mount the nozzle. If you saturate your AIT sensor, how will you know if you AI is working properly. The mixture needs to atomize well before it hits your sensor. That is why pre-turbo is a good place. You clearly haven't put any of your "theories" to practice.

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

That's not very nice.

Again folks, try it before you add your "theories". I use VERY little from my AI tank and my temps are literally DROPPING the entire time I am in boost, well below ambient. I've never seen that from ANY IC.

You say heat is no good, but FMIC raise water temps...


I use 50/50 water/methanol. water = h2O, O = oxygen. Methanol = MeOH, again, O = Oxygen.


By improve, do you mean:
1. Higher AITs under boost
2. Pressure loss when compared to ANY IC
3. IC do NOT actively prevent detonation

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

Brian, have you actually made boost with the new setup yet? Curious what the IAT does under full load once the AI begins operating.

BDC

Hi Chris, I can't yet. When Ari and I did the hot-air pipe we didn't have a flange for the BOV to weld it on so I'm still sans BOV. Hopefully that'll be fixed because I'm itchin' and scratchin' like crazy to get goin' on it tho'. However, as-is, I've only run about 12lbs of boost and it was a limited run in 4th gear (highway) up to about 5900rpm or something on a colder night. The IAT's went to 130-132*F and stayed steady. Not the full amount of alcohol I normally run so I don't know.

B

BDC

I'm honoured by your responses Enzo; you're a talented and established guy. I'd rather have someone like you tell me that something I've said is stupid rather than the hoardes of followers.

... But, just because a million of us do FMIC's doesn't mean it's the right way to do it. As far as this intercooler bit goes, that's what I intended to prove if it's possible.

Funny you mention that, Enzo. This hot-air and "chemical intercooling" idea was spawned by two things: One, stylemon's data to a lesser degree, and two, to a substantially larger degree the hunch I've got that the previous setup I was using (factory 2nd gen top mounted IC, 60-1HIFI, and 1.7-1.77bar of boost) was entirely kept under control by copious amounts of alcohol. One of the worst possible hardware combinations yet post-turbo EGT's solid at 1300*F. How is this explainable?

I agree. That's one thing I have to worry about -- charge saturation.

We shall see. Do you have a spare rabbit's foot I can borrow?

B