When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Auxiliary InjectionThe place to discuss topics of water injection, alky/meth injection, mixing water/alky and all of the various systems and tuning methods for it. Aux Injection is a great way to have a reliable high power rotary.
the snow cleared Wisconsin a bit later than usual and with it the salt from the roads so i retrieved my car from Beyond Redline about a month ago. the plan was to put a few road miles on it and clean up a few items before going back to the dyno..
i have been doing some third gear roll-on pulls and am very impressed w the mid-range power at low boost levels. in 3rd gear i am on the edge of adhesion at around 46% throttle. that w 295 tires at 27 psi.... the nose raises up a bit and the rear hunkers down. this is off the wastegate spring at around 13/14.
i now have the internal knock system working and it has proved very interesting. i am using a new style Bosch knock sensor from the RX8 and i have one in each rotor housing. one of the (many) reasons i chose the V88 was it's internal knock system. it is tune-able and it is active and offers two discrete channels for the front and rear rotors.
you first define knock.... knock is a frequency and it varies w all motors. the 2 rotor rotary resonates around 4500 CPS (Hz) according to Mazda. (thanks for that info ARGHX). once you pick the frequency you select a response. the V88 can retard timing, cut fuel or turn on your headlights if you wish.
i have always held the stock knock sensor in high regard and have a familiarity with it's readings. the current challenge is to get comfortable w the new system readings... all it takes is some miles and logs. i will then think about enabling the response. ATM, i am just generating data.
and the problem has been i have been encountering knock near the end of my pulls. it is quite clear from the log set forth below.
given this has happened consistently during the last month, i have been richening the fuel map and decreasing timing. to the point where the knock still appears where it just shouldn't.
last week i decided that i should check the AI system carefully.
my setup uses fuel injectors to deliver the W/M. i datalog them and the log shows they are doing just what they are supposed to according to the separate fuel map for them. you can see the duty cycle plot which is the seventh window (down).
there they are, coming on just around boost.
but of course that is no guarantee of FLOW.
i first pressured up the MAP sensor to check that my AI Alkycontrol pump was going on. yes on the pump.
i then tested each of the two AI fuel injectors. the V88 has an ability to test... yes, you can hear the injector clicking.... both of them.
i then pulled off the air cleaner and flipped it upside down. one of the two AI injectors is in the air cleaner/pre-turbo.
i started the AI pump, turned on the fuel injector all set to see a big spray.
nothing.
i did the same thing w the AI injector in the elbow.... almost nothing. i don't think i need to look further for a knock solution.
off the injectors went to FuelInjectorConnection overnight. the following afternoon Jon Banner called and confirmed that the injectors were corroded and effectively plugged.
this was not totally a surprise. there have been a number of cautionary statements re using Fuel Injectors for AI due to potential degradation.
i had used them a few years ago hooked in parallel to my secondary injectors run by my Power FC. they worked fine. i had also for a few years used solenoids (FJO) and they worked fine.
the difference here was i am now using water and meth whereas previously i was using just meth. apparently the additional hydrogen in the water may, repeat may, be a game changer.
the injectors had been exposed to the water meth for about 4 months. any corrosion within a fuel injector is deadly. fuel injectors are precise delivery systems and any change in the ball and seat and that precision disappears perhaps along w a motor.
i looked into keeping my setup w a new pair of injectors and purging it after AI use and at that point things started to look a bit ridiculous. (even for me).
the lightbulb finally illuminated and i decided enough of this i am going back to what i ran for 5 trouble free 500 hp years. i called my old friend Julio Don at Alkycontrol and next tuesday one of his systems will hit the mail. i am running his pump in my current system as i consider it to be the best.
i will run, initially, an M10 (630 cc) and an M15 (945 cc) nozzle in the pipe between the IC and elbow. i will run
W/M. all should be up and running by the end of next week. i may find i need to adjust nozzle sizing.
i am continuing to get acquainted w the V88 and it is every bit as good as i thought it might be when i bought it... even more so.
here's a page from the last run before getting back to the Alkycontrol setup. notice the two plots as to knock, front and rear. other data tidbits can be seen on the right.
BTW, my engine is fine and gaining compression as the miles go by. i will be back on the dyno as soon as my knock disappears.
howard
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 05-26-13 at 08:14 AM.
Good deduction Howard. Definitely glad you sorted it out before it went mission critical.
Funny how some of the old tricks are the best. Does the V88 have any failsafe capabilities such as AEM's flow monitor. I was always impressed with their setup, though not quite executed to my taste.
Thanks for posting. Another vote for 'simple'. Something my Dad taught me as a kid. And as I get older, appreciate more.
My system is even simpler....as simple as it gets. But it's been trouble-free for nearly 3 years and does everything needed for my car. Although I can't brag to friends about how much money I have in it.
i am fast concluding that the "V" in ViPEC is for LOVE.
Love because it can deliver anything i want and more.
i will be posting lots of screen-saves as i move ahead...
i made an initial run w my Alkycontrol AI system yesterday (3rd gear on the road). i knew it would be pig rich before the run but needed to establish a base from which to re-tune for the right AFR.
i am running 25% water and 75% methanol thru two nozzles... an M10 630 CC/Min and an M15 945 CC/Min. flow rates are at 100 psi net of boost.
water is a part of the equation for two reasons.... water has 8087 cooling BTUs per gallon V (all) gasoline at 900 or methanol at 3340. water doesn't cool the charge air but does its thing in the combustion chamber. you can see a small amount of water goes a long way as to delivering cooling BTUs.
i said the water is there for two reasons... methanol may be a bit edgy at some fraction when mixed w gas. i think a portion of water in the combustion chamber may help. "may" i have a suspicion that a 75/25 mix may be the ultimate AI ratio.
let's get into the data from the run...
capture one is boost threshold.
3rd gear, roll into the throttle just to get the AI working... around 31% throttle. boost off the spring. the objective of this pull is just to get the AI working and start to adjust the fuel map.
RPM 3770
Boost zero
AFR 14
AN V7 (AI system pressure // ALL my Pressure readings w the exception of boost are absolute so you need to subtract 14.7 to get to the pressure we use... Gauge pressure) so the reading is 16.3 minus 14.7 or pretty much zero) AI pump is off at this point.
AN V11 191 F this is the charge air temp between the turbo and intercooler as measured by a Type K thermocouple (think EGT) accurate to the degree and mS.
AN V10 53 F charge air temperature after the intercooler at the stock FD location under the UIM as measured by a Type K thermocouple.
AN V6 EGT pre turbo 1193F rear rotor, front not currently working
TP 31% throttle position sensor
capture two
start of AI delivery
about 100 rpm later w around 3 psi of boost we see 30 psi AI pressure, minus the 14.7 is about 15 psi gauge pressure... timing has dropped (see ignition angle on left) from 23.5 to 19.1 and EGT has risen from 1193 to 1240.
capture three
top of the run boostwise at 13.6 psi
RPM 4587
Boost 13.6
AFR 10.1 pig rich untuned for the meth at this point
AN V7 AI pressure 142.5 absolute, 127.8 gauge pressure (this is not full pressure BTW)
AN V11 258 F charge air from turbo.... at higher boost expect over 300
AN V10 89 F charge air at stock FD location
AN V6 EGT 1202F
Throttle 36.4%
at this point the engine was blubbering rich.
and now it gets really fun. i went thru this process in 2004 w my Alkycontrol system w the M10 and M15 nozzles.
the process, as most know, simply is the removal of base fuel umtil the desired AFR is attained.
back in the stone ages of 2004 the hot setup was to have an Excel program and do a bunch of cutting and pasting.
now it is as simple as click on the "Mixture Map."
each cell has the average AFR from the log, the target AFR that is set by the user, the number of samples and the amount of variance from the desired target.
more data after making the adjustments. no cut and paste, just a click and the fuel map is ready to rip.
another AFR tuning option is the"Quick Tune." after turning it on you go for a drive and as you post data in each cell the V88 will automatically tune the fuel. it would be perfect on a load cell dyno where you can work your way thru the load cells. this doesn't quite work on the highway... trying to center on a cell under boost you would be mowing lots of people down. it does work fine in vacuum.
howard
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 06-15-13 at 07:19 PM.
Would you be able to introduce a 0-5V signal from a flow sensor? I have an extra coolingmist one, and was wondering if it might be able to work without the other stuff.
a combo of rain and building 4 motors ATM delayed run two a couple of days. the primary diff was a bit leaner fuel map and i also did a bit in 4th gear...
here's a capture of the top of the run boost-wise:
whereas the engine was blubbering during the prior day's run it is now firing cleanly yet still way too rich. even though the boost is high 13s the car is flying at high 30s% throttle. it will be a handful at full throttle just off the wastegate spring at around mid 11 AFR.
the AI pressure, listed as AN 7 GP Pressure, is 143 psi. since it is absolute, remove 14.7 and remove the boost, 14 to get net pressure of 114. the square root is 1.069. nozzles pass 1575 CC/Min at 100 so i am getting 1683 CC/Min into the motor. since i am 25% water and 75% meth:
420 CC/Min water
1263 CC/Min Methanol
i am liking the V88 internal knock system.... notice almost flatline knock until boost and then a small number in boost. what i like is that it seems able to report very small quantities of knock. sneaking up on knock is key.
notice temp of the air exiting the BW S363... 286 degrees F. IAT at the stock UIM location is 91 F.
here's the end of the run in fourth...
the interesting thing to me is that it appears that the charge air temp exiting the turbo rises cumulatively. while the boost is 13.1 V 14 in the preceding capture the temp is now 321F!
also of note to me is how well the Alkycontrol AI system manages output w changing MAP. notice the pressure change between 3rd and fourth.
and now the fun part... time to call in the Mixture Map and do some tuning...
it looks like i am rich by over a point where it counts. this is getting interesting.
AN V4 is fuel pressure and AN V5 is a dead EGT... AN V6 is a functioning EGT but you know that.
car is heading to Beyond Redline tomorrow for dyno tuning on gas and then E85. i am leaving it at BR and it will be a few days to finish the gas evaluation.
i am fairly close to being tuned out for the Texas Mile. since my last post i have switched to E85 and also run an Alkycontrol AI system spraying thru one M10 (630 cc) nozzle at the elbow. the AI is primarily to reduce IAT temps as the E85 takes car of in-chamber knock.
i am running a GT4094r around mid 20s boost and making mid 500 hp. tune is very conservative as i will be in 5th gear for 20 seconds. yesterday we did a run thru all gears full blast on the dyno thru 5th gear and reached 205 on the dyno.
i am fairly close to being tuned out for the Texas Mile. since my last post i have switched to E85 and also run an Alkycontrol AI system spraying thru one M10 (630 cc) nozzle at the elbow. the AI is primarily to reduce IAT temps as the E85 takes car of in-chamber knock.
i am running a GT4094r around mid 20s boost and making mid 500 hp. tune is very conservative as i will be in 5th gear for 20 seconds. yesterday we did a run thru all gears full blast on the dyno thru 5th gear and reached 205 on the dyno.
all seemed well w the engine.
howard
Sorry to bring this thread back to life after 3 years but my question is related to this and don't want to start a new thread.
I am also running E85 but my CX intercooler is not up to the task to keep my air intake temp down in the hot Florida weather specially after multiple passes in the dyno at only 20 psi out of my BW 369 sxe.
I recently got a simple AEM WI kit to install to try to control high AIT temp.. been reading for the pass few hours many thread old and new and I got more confuse. Pre turbo- post turbo, water only or 50/50mix .
Can someone help me out with current 2016 info on what to do?
I will not be tuning for this just want a small amount WI to cool off the AIT. What are your recommendations on nozzle placement,size and Water to methanol ratio to used?
IATs are a big deal in getting to the right tune so your focus on them is correct.
the SXE 69 is a 730 rotary SAE rwhp turbo so if you are planning to max it you will need all the help you can get.
what sensor are you using for IATs and where is it located?
IMO, there is only one way to accurately measure IATs... a type K thermocouple similar to what is used for EGTs.
it is accurate almost to the degree but more importantly almost to the millisecond. that's one thou of a second.
most other IAT sensors are slow motion as they are designed for a different purpose such as cold start etc. data is slow walked and probably doesn't reflect reality.
here's my data using Type K sensors... i have temp out of the turbo before the IC (AN V10) and in the stock location (AN V 11)... this is on E85.
log one is in fourth gear. these are the real temps both out of the turbo max 375 F and into the engine 167 F.
log two is in fifth gear on a run to 205 mph on the dyno. things take longer in fifth so you see the turbo exit temps as much as 40 degrees higher. this is tuning for the Texas Mile where you are in fifth gear for around 17 seconds. (that's why the tune is somewhat conservative in 5th at 26 psi GT4094r) the blip near the end was caused by a 2% throttle lift)
what is your sensor reporting as to IAT?
as to your question...
IF you are solely wanting lower IATs water has no place in your AI system. water works (well) in the combustion chamber and does not atomise in the charge air much.
Methanol is your injectant. Meth is the king of atomisers and as such will significantly lower your IAT.
i don't know how hard you plan on pressing your SXE69 but i suggest you run 1000 CC to 1500 CC of meth... that would be a M15 single nozzle or a M15 and a M10.
i have around 10 year experience w such a setup.
due to meth having less than 50% of the BTUs as gas you will not change your tune much as to base fuel.
just so as to not restart an old war, water works very well as AI as well as a water meth combo... it just depends on what you are specifically trying to accomplish.
100% meth is your answer along w other non AI related components.
Thanks Howard for your reply..
My IAT (GM) sensor is on the cold post intercooler pipe few inches before my Greddy elbow. MY IAT were 80c up to 140C by the end of the run in the dyno at only 20 PSI... It was a really hot in the shop that day about 95+ F ... But is always hot down here in Miami Florida..
I will star with M10 1000cc of pure methanol placing the nozzle in my cold side inter cooler pipe and go from there...
if you are running a Greddy elbow i suggest you locate the nozzle either in the silicone coupler or just in front of it. alcohol needs a bit of intake length to flash/atomise.
locate the nozzle at 3 o'clock or at the position on the pipe nearest the inner fender.
if you are running a Greddy elbow i suggest you locate the nozzle either in the silicone coupler or just in front of it. alcohol needs a bit of intake length to flash/atomise.
locate the nozzle at 3 o'clock or at the position on the pipe nearest the inner fender.
AEM Kit install with a bigger Treadstone intercooler.. I locate the nozzle in front on the coupler like you suggested in the greedy elbow nearest of the inner fender...
We did a test dyno run and netted 493 whp with the WI off 17 psi of boost.
We lost 2 psi of boost do to my intercooler change from a Ebay CX 22x12x2.75" core to a treadstone 22x12x4.5" core, boost controller untouched in the VIPEC..
The interesting thing was my AFR when down from 11.6 to 10.3 AFR on the dyno. I guest I will have to retune before I can start using mi WI to help lower the IAT...
i am very interested in your results/data as you have a killer turbo (SXE 69).
493 is of course good power at 17 psi.
the upgrade of your IC produced the results i would expect.
boost pressure is the result of flow meeting restriction.
if you have a restrictive IC it will produce more "pressure" than a better non-restrictive IC.
you swapped a free-er flowing IC and your boost dropped due to less restriction.
as mentioned previously, water will not much change IATs. methanol will. you have a home run turbo and will need all the help you can get... run 100% meth as injectant.
Those are some big power numbers for only 17psi! What kind of porting? That should put you around 230whp at atmospheric pressure which is damn impressive. I was making closer to 420 at 17psi with a EFR 9180 IWG and a street ported 13BT. Ended up making 540whp at 25.5psi. 93oct + 400cc/min of straight water.
I would have expected the opposite to happen when installing a free-flowing intercooler.
You're tuning boost relative to manifold pressure, which is after the pressure drop in the intercooler. The boost source for the wastegate is pre-pressure drop, so alleviating the pressure drop would lower your wastegate boost source. If you're in open-loop boost control, I would have expected boost to increase. Less pressure on the wastegate means the wastegate is opening less, right?
"My IAT (GM) sensor is on the cold post intercooler pipe few inches before my Greddy elbow. MY IAT were 80c up to 140C by the end of the run in the dyno at only 20 PSI"
translating... IAT at start of pull was 176 F and at end of pull was 284 F??????
perhaps there is some calibration error?
as mentioned a few posts earlier i use thermocouples to get exact IAT readings and the readings out of my EFR 9180 reached approx 320 F directly out of the turbo before the intercooler at around 25 psi and were about 140 F read at the OE FD stock location.
IF your readings are correct, which i doubt, your IC is doing absolutely nothing... which i doubt... even a marginal quality IC will drop temps a fair amount.
i would revisit your Calibration settings on the ViPEC.
i can't imagine an engine holding together w actual IATs very close to 300 F.
thanks, Shainiac, for your post.
the EFR9180 and the SXE 69 are very close as to compressor size
EFR 9180 is 68 X 91
SXE 69 is 69 X 91
the EFR line was designed before the SXE line and BW was able to advance the compressor side of the SXE turbo. (compressor cover)
take a look at the two compressor maps... they look quite different w the advantages accruing to the SXE.
i have scribed 17 PSI and 25.5 PSI on both maps (red/rust lines)
the blue lines represent 420, 493 and 540 on both maps.
note where they fall as to Efficiency on each map.
420 hp 17 PSI EFR Efficiency is 74.5% SXE Efficiency is 76.25%
493 hp 17 PSI EFR Efficiency is 67% SXE Efficiency is 73%
540 hp 25.5 PSI EFR Efficiency is 72% SXE Efficiency is 75%,
Efficiency is a BIG deal. the cooler the air, the more oxygen molecules and more potential power.
the maps look quite different w re to the surge lines (there is no constant flow output to the left of the left vert line/surge line)
at 17 PSI the EFR surge line is at 26.5 pounds per minute
at 17 PSI the SXE surge line is at 23. (lower is better)
at 25.5 PSI the EFR surge is at 36 and the SXE is at 32
of course there are many other features that distinguish each turbo and the EFR turbo has a lighter turbine wheel, a really nice bearing assembly etc. that's why it is double the price of the SXE.
AXA, pls get back to us once you have figured out your IATs and have some runs w meth as AI.
Howard,
Thanks for the info
I didn’t realize how much BW improved the surge line on the SXE, especially considering it’s a larger compressor.
I have to be very careful tuning low range boost with the EFR. I can’t just crank boost control duty cycle to 100% and try to maximize spool.
It will surge below 4000 or so if I do. I need to tune closed loop boost and just set target boost below the surge limit.
With boost control set soft in the lower RPMs, I still saw 200whp by 3900 rpm. Boost duty ramped in from 100% at 0rpm to 40% at 4000rpm. 40% +/- 5% held pretty close to 26psi, tapering off.
Those are some big power numbers for only 17psi! What kind of porting? That should put you around 230whp at atmospheric pressure which is damn impressive. I was making closer to 420 at 17psi with a EFR 9180 IWG and a street ported 13BT. Ended up making 540whp at 25.5psi. 93oct + 400cc/min of straight water.
I would have expected the opposite to happen when installing a free-flowing intercooler.
You're tuning boost relative to manifold pressure, which is after the pressure drop in the intercooler. The boost source for the wastegate is pre-pressure drop, so alleviating the pressure drop would lower your wastegate boost source. If you're in open-loop boost control, I would have expected boost to increase. Less pressure on the wastegate means the wastegate is opening less, right?
Cool setup and good power though.
The porting is a street port semi peripheral with high compression NA S5 rotors.
Using E85 only.. I am using a .91 back housing in my turbo.
We made 527 whp with 20 PSI before the intercooler change...
05-25-13, 08:59 AM
... Already have the tank full of VP M1 methanol .. But I was not able to tested on the dyno do to the new rich AFR condition..
