PDViper77

iTrader: (9)

Ok, I have the old school coolingmist injection kit on my rx7. But I replaced a few things to make it better such as ran a copper hose from the pump to the injector instead of the plastic one it comes with. It is a 100psi pump. What size pump do you guys run? I am going to upgrade the kit further by buying the varicool controller so I can have it tuned for each value instead of just pouring it in the same at each boost/rpm.

As for a good "failsafe" I have an idea and would like to see what you guys think. I have 10 psi wastegate springs so I would have the first injector come on around 10.5psi - 11psi. Then I would have the second one come online at a higher boost level. Now if for some reason the alcohol injection ever failed whether it be the pump, injector get clogged, or whatever I would have an aftermarket knock sensor hooked up on the block. This knock sensor could be wired up to my profec-b spec 2 ignition and/or power wire so that if the engine ever knocked above a certain level the knock sensor would activate a relay to cut the power off on my boost controller. This would instantly lower my boost to 10psi which is below the level at which my alcohol normally starts spraying.

Now my question is would this work? For this to work I would need an aftermarket knock sensor controller that would be able to hook up to a relay in order for this to work. Does anyone know of a particular knock sensor/controller that is capable of doing this? Also if my alcohol injection did fail and all of the above is possible, would shutting off the power to the boost controller via relay lower my boost fast enough to not cause any damage? Hopefully someone can answer my questions. When Steve Kan comes back out to STL again, I would like for him to be able to tune my car to 25psi on pump/alky using this above system (IF IT WORKS). C16 is just too damn expensive.

BNA_ELLIS

Using 98 octane pump fuel. Fuel is the same as in U.S.A. it's only calculated different. we rate our octane from ron alone, in the U.S.A you rate your octane by ron + mon then divide by 2. our 98 octane works out the same as your 94 octane if I remember my figures correctly.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

PD raises an important point, the "What If" re system failure.

after researching AI carefully i concluded that i would run 100% methanol and would be replacing at minimum 20% of my pump.

this is a whole different proposition than spraying water to gain cooling since you end up 20% lean if the system malfunctions.

you bet your motor.

OTOH, there are many systems in our FDs that, should they fail, spell doom, yet we don't think of backups.

i concluded that first and foremost as to finding a system was fundamental engineering integrity. since i was going all alcohol (no water) i wanted to deal with someone who did 100% alcohol, and raced his own system. someone who had already confronted the risks and had had a successful outcomes.

there are systems on the FD that you can skimp on a bit and there are places where you must have the very best. if you replace pump with alcohol you must have the best. the last thing i wanted to do was design my own system. sure it looks simple, you can buy a pump and all of the components but when you blow a fuse on your pump with your right foot on the floor... time to bring out the cherry picker.

safety is an issue. you are pumping something as flammable as gasoline, do you really want anything but aeroquip SS braided line and hydraulic brass fittings? plastic? push-on fittings. not me. container being a windshield washer bottle in your engine compartment, uh no. fuel cell, yes.

Julio Don- Alkycontrol my pick, and SMC Jason Cramer both sell and race proven alcohol systems. neither has the "best" site in the space. Julio purposely has kept proprietary info out of his site but has an excellent FAQ section... you need to call Julio to make the right decision re AI.

so AI is no place to do cheap.

as to safety backups, beside SYSTEM INTEGRITY, i use a J&S Knock Detector/Retarder. should i have an alcohol malfuntion at 6 psi or higher my lead ignition will retard up to 10 degrees on the next power impulse. note: the only unit for the FD is the one w the MAP sensor so you don't retard in vacuum where you likely run no split.

PD, your idea sounds right but the key is how long will it take the triggered boost solenoid to mechanically react and lower the boost? how many power impulses? i know electricity travels at the speed of light but how many Ms will it take to get the boost lowered?
i wouldn't want to make that bet.

on another point.... two separately staged nozzles are hard to trim. they are old school and have been replaced w progressive controllers. if you are making around 500 hp you need 2 nozzles coming on together but progressively at the same time.

as to my pump pressure... i don't know. i don't care. Julio spends almost 3 hours reworking the pump (including bench testing) and most everything in it is proprietary and all i care about is, is it working for me. which it does. i do not want to get into engineering AI as it would cost me a year and at least one blown motor no doubt. i do want to get into the tuning of course...

so far it is as advertised.

stay tuned, more to come. 23 psi on the street.

howard coleman

Asleep

Zavier's car...I can attest to the performance of it. With the half-bridge and the water injection that T-78 was spinning up well before 5000rpm. Not a modified T-78 either.

Can't comment on the Evo.

Tony

Asleep

I think this thread should seperate in multiple thread. Or better yet, we need a METHANOl / WATER INJECTION section.

There are multiple camps developing here. Some are vendor specific, fuild mixture specific, injecting as a safety, or tuning with it.

We need a section to keep it all together and focused.

Tony

Alkycontrol

The best safety net after a properly executed system is to monitor wideband readings.

If you stand on the gas and the air fuel climbs.. LIFT. This can happen from a bad injector, failing fuel pump, clogged filter, problem in the injection system.. Best is to catch everything not concentrate on one dimension. Kinda like putting an alarm on your home and only wiring the rear entry.

Innovate and others are starting to offer wideband guages that can be setup to trip if conditions are met to do so.

Knock is great.. but air fuel is instant.. especially if the WB sensor is close to the engine.

Guys.. build your injection system like you would a fuel system.. its only common sense to do so. This is one area that being cheap has consequences.

Also running 24 PSI boost doesnt mean anything if the motor doesnt make power. I know plenty of Turbo Buicks running 25 PSI and 14 second 1/4 mile know-it-alls.

Raw trap speed data, dyno sheets, etc is what the focus should be on. If the motor doesnt make power.. it doesnt matter what it is.

PDViper77

iTrader: (9)

Well I have my PLX wideband coming in very soon so I will be able to monitor my AFRs at a constant rate. Even though I will be able to lift I would still like some other failsafe for just incase if it fails. Also this will be used on my GT42R/Half-Bridge setup.

sdminus

Very shortly i will be ditching my coolingmist kit for a brand new kit.

The new kit is based soley on inj duty cycle
The kit uses a shurflo pump but does'nt suffer from the pulsing problem of current kits.
Has a built in fail safe for block jet,leaking jet,low water pressure and fault condition. The kit is capable of switching from high boost to low boost under fault conditions
Has a visual display of water level and water usage.

After spending a few hours as a guest at the FIA european finals yesterday i have had a very close look behind the scene and also feal im am now dealing with the correct people to finish this job off.

Howard did you get my email about the pump etc\?

Scott

hondahater

iTrader: (2)

so what system are you talking about/ any links?

sdminus

When i can i will. May not be for another 2 weeks tho.

I am hoping to have it running before i next visit the strip

Scott

PDViper77

iTrader: (9)

Ok, I am willing to get rid of my current coolingmist kit because the pump "pulses" too. Does anyone know what the best kit out right now is? Alkycontrol, or some other kit? I just want to be able to run more than 22psi on pump gas (AKA make big power, more than I do right now using C16) without retarding the ignition to the extreme/ having an unreliable system.

sdminus

Hold on a couple of weeks. I promise this kit will be good.

I will take a video of the flow rate pulsing for general interest. Basically it drops from full delivery to 0 about once a second. It is a bit like watching a graphic eq. seeing this has scared the **** out of me.

Scott

Tremer

Is there anywhere there is a kit offered?? As ive been thinking about running this setup and its good to hear that poeple are having success
Andrew

iceman4357

iTrader: (2)

Jason is doing my car now with the water/alcohol, cant wait to see the results! My car is pretty much the same as zaviers. Halfbridge, T78.

Tremer

Im running full bridge (nearly monstor bridge) with a GT 35/40 made 350 rwhp at 7psi at 6900 rpm

hondahater

iTrader: (2)

what do you mean pulses? Do you have the vari cool setup or the older single or dual stage?

PDViper77

iTrader: (9)

I have the old single stage setup. The pump pulses when it primes the line. I think it also pulses when it delivers the methanol as well.

sdminus

The pump is a piston type. The output is not linear but more like comparing a compresed air line to a foot pump.
It does this regardless of what the control device is. This means its a gamble as to how much liquid you inject at any split second interval.

Scott

hondahater

iTrader: (2)

well doesn't y our fuel pump do the same thing? Everything pulses, thats why they have pd's in all cars. yes it pumps but the pulses are very very quick. Still interested to see the system your talking about sdminus, will be looking out for that.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

we have everything but the right fuel mix to make gobs of turbo'd rotary power.

AI IS THE MISSING LINK.

a good friend called me yesterday to tell me he'd run 7.6 and 179 the previous week. a 2 rotor! weight, i forget but somewhere around 2000 pounds plus. RWHP? around 1000! now get this: ambient temperature 84 degrees. intake air temperature 41 degrees!!!!!!!!! NO intercooler. fuel? METHANOL. most of the other metrics need to remain private but making around 1000 rwhp and 41 degrees charge air temperature...

what's your air temperature?
mine was 91 degrees at 79 ambiant at one bar boost a couple of days ago. that's measured before my alcohol is introduced.

intake air temperature is VERY relevant to blowing rotary engines. most blow due to auto-ignition, that is the air charge gets higher than gasonline's autoignition point (500 F) and it ignities BEFORE the lead plug fires. and we are pouring excess pump into our motors to cool them. wrong fuel. wrong strategy. racegas autofires at 660F an improvement but... methanol autofires at 857F!!! sign me up for some of that.

alcohol rules.

there is no doubt in my mind that AI will look very different in 4 years. probably fuel injectors (4), no doubt located in the LIM, all alcohol, all digital, probably run by the central ECU.

and absolutely awesome as to having it all. peak boosted power when you want it and drive around economy on pump when you don't.

much of this is still in the future.

scott is working toward the newer systems now. we await future developments.

i have a different current agenda re AI. my objectives are to use what WORKS now as my primary objective is to prove out my custom designed two Garrett TO4 turbosystem. it has been a 3 year project so far and is heading to the dyno october 7.

i really don't care whether the alcohol pulses or streams. i care about knock, egts, hp and torque and, above all, system reliability. one of Julio's systems last week ran 9.98 at over 140 in a 3850 pound car on pump and methanol. i imagine it pulsed.

while some of us are worrying about the more esoteric/futuristic aspects of AI, our motors are either in the process of frying or we are drowning them with highly flammable gasoline and wondering why the detonate and brake seals.

we are flooding our motors w gasoline that auto-ignites at 500 degrees. race gas ignites at 660 and methanol at 878!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i strongly suggest you read Brian Cain's absolutely on target thread on the subject as to WHY our rotaries break.... it should be cross posted here. required reading.

http://forum.teamfc3s.org/showthread.php?t=50764

once you read the thread i suggest your mindset may shift from what's the ultimate system to getting a good alcohol system on your car NOW.

howard coleman

rotorbrain

WOW. . . all i can say!!!

you know brian, i always wondered why i never setup my car to run totally on methanol. it really does only make sense. this is something ive been wanting to look into for a long while now, but havent been able to since i am busy with family life lately. . . and am paying off all my debt. [YAY!!!] im fairly confident that i will be converting over to methanol completely very soon. . . and will probably be in touch with you shortly because of it.

kudos to you guys!!! this is something that we have overlooked for way too long!!!

edit: oh yeah, thanks for the plug!!! the car is running great to this day! im still wanting to get rid of the FEED FPR, and replace it with a 1:1 unit. i think it is killing my mpg's since it likes to ramp up fuel pressure at its own whim. i sense a total system revamp in the near future. . . though, i dont know if i wanna go through the headache of a new turbo setup just yet.

oh, and brian. . . REMEMBER THE FUEL CUT!!!!

BDC

Heh heh heh, fuel cut That was fun

B

AImec Racing

just to thank you all doing this effort that will hopefully help to decrease the rotary engine "unrealibility"... keep the good work! i was thinking of giving a try on this and this thread will definitely help...

i would like to add... I have been running my car at 21 psi on pump gas for more than 1 year and i have not mind to increase boost to 26 psi when nature calls (EVO, STi, Viper, Vettes, gt2, etc,,,) still on pump gas.... also, i have friends with similar set-ups making 600+ whp on c16 and running 20-23 psi on pump gas...(we are all using RA). My point is that although i know the fail benchmark on the hi-boost pump gas rotary engines, i also think that the seals are one of the big variables in the equation... not turning the thread into a seals one but just my 2 cents... and by the way, what would you guys call the limit on fuel pump?

... and while the AI keeps developing.... has anyone think about a system feeding the injectors with 100% c16 with a 2-way return by-pass system dumping c16 to an additional fuel cell? ... that would be running 100% pump gas all the way and 100% c16 with the push of a button!

Pimp Hand

iTrader: (3)

What temp dose water auto fire at?

I’m not trying to be an ***. But that question drives home the point I am going to make.

Not to take any thing away from ALK. But pure water injection has a strong argument in its favor. But they work in different ways.

In effect ALK injection works to raise the DET. resistance of the fuel, with a secondary effect of lowering the charge temp. With large FMIC’s the lowering of the charge temp is not as crucial, as it is in other applications. IMO ALK injection is best at raising the fuels DET resistance in order to deal with the very high cylinder temp/pressure produced by high boost levels. Of course this is a somewhat simplistic explanation. But I’m keeping it simple for the masses.


Water injection on the other hand works some what different. Water injection’s primary function is to remove heat from the compression/combustion strokes. Thus lowering the level of heat the fuel is exposed to prior to ignition. And water injection slows down the combustion process during the combustion stroke, which further promotes stable combustion vs. uncontrolled combustion. (DET) With a secondary function of lowering charge temp. But I would be the first to point out that ALK is more effective at charge temp cooling than water is, primarily because water has a much higher boiling point than methanol or ethanol.


Both methods of fighting detonation, either raising the fuels detonation resistance, or lowering the level of heat the fuel is exposed to can be HIGHLY EFECTIVE. Providing the system is constructed and tuned correctly. But what sold me on water injection is rather simple. Setting aside all of the science arguments. Water is much safer to deal with. IE its not corrosive(I can use any pump I want), nor is it highly flammable. (I don’t have to worry about catching on fire if I get into a wreck) And its DIRT CHEEP!! Granted meth is not very expensive. But that’s 1 thing less I have to find a supplier for. And the final issue I have with ALK is storage. Because it’s a nasty chemical you have to keep kids away, keep fire away. It’s just dangerous to have hanging around. Of course if you don’t have kids and you’re not a smoker then these are non issues. But it’s still dangerous to have a 55 gal drum of this stuff sitting in your garage.


Let’s keep it real here there is 1 draw back to using water injection. That is loss of power. That’s right you make less HP on water than ALK. And the reason is simple- heat + pressure = HP. Remove a lot of heat and your HP drops. But the loss isn’t bad. According to the calculations, an injection rate of 150ml/minute of water extracts almost 8 BHP (7.58 BHP for those that want to know) equivalent of heat energy during evaporation. In contrast, Methanol cost 3.73 BHP, Ethanol cost 3.04 BHP, and Gasoline cost 1.18 BHP. That’s the price you pay for the convince and safety of using water.

Personally I lose about 33 BHP to water (640cc/min at peak cylinder pressure) I use a Aquamist system 2s mapped 3D from a 5v feed from the map sensor. So i lose most of that HP at tourq(SP) peak. I ramp down the injection rate 15%-20% per 1k rpm both above and below tourq(SP) peak. So i minimize the losses due to unnecessary high injection rates at low rpm and low boost psi.

Please don’t misunderstand me I’m not knocking ALKY in its ability to perform. And I’m truly happy that you guys have found a solution to DET that works for you. Actually im not knocking any one here. Im just pointing out water has its avantages.




Finaly I need to give credit where credit is due. Big PROPS to Rice Racing and all of his posts for getting me interested in this subject.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

an excellent piece re water as AI.

AI refers to Auxiliary Injection and that includes water of course.

each injectant has has it's postives and negatives and we can't all be divorced from the same woman. i do believe you can make a persuasive case for using either water, alcohol or a combo.

you can not make a strong make a strong case for not using AI.

what's in your AI tank?

howard coleman