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I went to a car meet half of an hour away and the car behaved very well. It's awesome driving this thing around. I changed the map slightly and will show what I can remember that I revised.
SINCE BOOST CREEP IS UNPREVENTABLE BY DUTY CYCLE CHANGE AT THE VERY TOP END, I AM NOW SHOOTING FOR 12PSI ACROSS THE BOARD!
-Increased boost DC to 25% because 10% gave about 8psi on the first turbo
-MAP prediction changed slightly to accommodate the new goal of 12psi
-Target AFRs leaned out in various areas
-Few fuel cells have changed
-Ignition has been backed off 5 degrees while warming up to lessen popping. This needs to be fine tuned some more but works out pretty well as is.
That's all I can remember that I changed. I'm going to get some dyno time at my tuning shop before they completely shut down so I can get some help from someone who knows what they're doing.
Note: AFRs are too rich during warmup during certain points causing occasional rich-lean hunt. Rich lean hunt also happens occasionally but I think changing some air temp based trim will help with that issue since it's usually after the car has been driven for a while.
I did some data logging and grocery shopping the other day and had some good results!
-Leaned and smoothed out a lot of areas on the map
-Changed around some transient throttle points
-Messed with a little bit of ignition timing around idle because it was jumping from no advance to 7 degrees advance causing an unstable idle due to adjacent cells
-Increased the duty cycle more because I have hit 10psi but still need 2 more lbs!
One thing I noticed in my logs is that with the lights and AC on, I have a reading of 13.3V and I don't believe this is acceptable. My air temp will also randomly drop roughly 40 degrees for like 20 seconds and then fix itself so that might need to be addressed or at least considered in the tune.
I did some data logging and grocery shopping the other day and had some good results!
-Leaned and smoothed out a lot of areas on the map
-Changed around some transient throttle points
-Messed with a little bit of ignition timing around idle because it was jumping from no advance to 7 degrees advance causing an unstable idle due to adjacent cells
-Increased the duty cycle more because I have hit 10psi but still need 2 more lbs!
One thing I noticed in my logs is that with the lights and AC on, I have a reading of 13.3V and I don't believe this is acceptable. My air temp will also randomly drop roughly 40 degrees for like 20 seconds and then fix itself so that might need to be addressed or at least considered in the tune.
Do the rpms stay consistent when turning on and off the lights and AC? You can set it up such that with AC or the lights on it idles X rpms higher than the base idle using the IAC valve and closed loop idle control. Doing so may would offset the electrical load the AC and lights are putting on the battery, which may also be what is causing things like your IAT sensor to have a voltage and thus output dip.
Worth looking into before you send off the alternator or change the battery.
So I randomly made a dyno appointment for today and my driver side tire valve stem gave up after the second pull...Great...
I changed my plugs from 6 and 8 to 7 and 9 like they should be and it seems like everything is running different. I also changed to a more progressive and linear ignition map.
So my tune made 255hp/227ftxlbs
I think that's pretty decent but I feel like there's room for more. Max timing on my map is peaked at like 10 degrees so it's still really conservative.
One thing that was strange to me is that the AFR sniffer on the dyno was reading leaner than my innovate wideband...
I'm not sure which one to trust because my innovate is saying around 11 AFR while the sniffer reads 12. Is there a reason for the difference at WOT? The lines look similar but read differently.
Here's a pic of the dyno sheet and of my log so they can be compared
A full AFR point off would definitely be a big deal. Have you done a free air calibration of the innovative?
Honestly I'd imagine that the innovative is correct and something with the dyno was off because at a 12.0 I'd think you would make more than 255 where as 11.0 at 10 PSI 255 sounds right on target.
So the weird part is that the first pull and second pull made similar power (1hp difference) The first run was richer than the second. I just though it was interesting that there wasn't a bigger difference. I'm definitely going to do the calibration before I go on the dyno tomorrow afternoon. I can't risk any inaccuracy. Wish me luck!
Just to jump in the middle, it would not surprise me if the dyno cell was off. They have a water basket that they need to drain on some models. Check yours and see if anything changes, but I would be more inclined to trust your sensor than a dyno sensor that has had god-knows how many cars ran across it.
Also, i just did a quick google search of "afr gauge doesn't match dyno reading" and found an article by Kenne Bell about what to expect at a dyno. I know that their products are well respected among Mustang guys, but I figured the brunt of the information is the same.
The final section talks all about inaccuracies with tailpipe AFR and how a dyno can vary from shop to shop. You can also request they test your car with a new sensor. If they refuse, or are unwilling to work, you may need to check another dyno at a different shop. If your power is identical (to a certain extent) and the AFR is the same, the sensor is the issue not your car.
I got to hit the dyno today and it didn't hit back like last time!
This was horsepower comparison where red is the last street tune and the blue is my final dyno WOT run.
Now keep in mind that I only tuned the WOT part of the tune so some cruise and vacuum areas still need to be messed with and so does the idle ever so slightly. I am going to reduce some timing through the AIT trim for safety.
Boost held at 12psi, AFR at 11.3, rev limit 7500, peak power of 291.
Overall, I am very satisfied and thank everyone who helped and has written informing articles on tuning! Here's to BRAPing with safety!
Last edited by newtgomez; 04-26-17 at 06:44 PM.
Reason: Forgot to add tune file
I got to hit the dyno today and it didn't hit back like last time!
This was horsepower comparison where red is the last street tune and the blue is my final dyno WOT run.
Now keep in mind that I only tuned the WOT part of the tune so some cruise and vacuum areas still need to be messed with and so does the idle ever so slightly. I am going to reduce some timing through the AIT trim for safety.
Boost held at 12psi, AFR at 11.3, rev limit 7500, peak power of 291.
Overall, I am very satisfied and thank everyone who helped and has written informing articles on tuning! Here's to BRAPing with safety!
Woooohooooooo.
Good job man. Thats a significant improvement in that session. Do you have any logs from the dyno session?
290 on the twins is a fun place to be at with the car. It feels like a log time ago to me but I had a ton of fun with the car in that form.
Here are the last three logs that were taken on the dyno. The last two will be pretty similar as the only difference was 2 degrees of advance across the boost region.
Here are the last three logs that were taken on the dyno. The last two will be pretty similar as the only difference was 2 degrees of advance across the boost region.
Looks pretty well tuned across the boost region! There wasn't any significant knock across the boost region in any of the logs.
This is the Target AFR - AFR map which shows how far your actual AFR was off of the target in any given cell based on the log data averaged from the last log where a negative number is lean from target and positive is rich. I've think that once you get with +/- 0.25 its pretty well done, and from here its just a matter of picky fine tuning to get it spot on depending on how **** you are. Good work....its impressive how consistent it is between 11 and 13 PSI where in the 5400 rpm column has the AFR difference at -0.27 and -0.28.
Well...I didn't really think I would make it this far lol. But now that it's on the street, I am going to fine tune the boost because somehow the "Multiply duty cycle by TPS" boxed was checked and causing it to overboost at the top end randomly. I've already made some adjustments and theoretically it should be fixed. I also richened the peak horsepower area a little bit to reach my target and slightly richened some cruising areas to lower EGTs slightly (Only noticed a 100F difference which makes it worth it to run it at 14.0 instead of 14.7)
I took it to the local West Coast Shootout and it did well cruising down I5 for a consistent hour so I believe the only real area I will have to mess with is the idle region. It randomly hunts at idle on rare occasions and I think it has to do with my IACV gains which really won't be too bad to fix if I just take time and deal with it.
Plans are now to put new brakes on and get an alignment and possibly new tires and basically just enjoy the car because I absolutely NEED to make more progress on my Integra motor (Motor build stopped 1.5 years ago because I bought the FD)
I didnt see that you were using closed loop boost. But I would think the multiply duty by TPS wouldnt be causing the overboost so much as P or I values that are too high. If anything it makes sense to me that the tps x duty setting would cause it to underboost since only at 100% throttle would the duty be Table Value x 1.0 = applied duty to gate.
At 75% throttler per it would be Table Value x 0.75 = duty applied to gate which would be lower than the value if that box was unchecked and the ecu at all times output the duty in the wastegate table.
Do you have your fuel pressure logging into the ecu? If you don't i'd highly recommend it. It really helped me clean my map up I used Eugene for the map. I still use wari for a lot of other things. I also lowered my VE #'s for my idle. I have the older PNP Select adaptronic not the new one.
Plans are now to put new brakes on and get an alignment and possibly new tires and basically just enjoy the car because I absolutely NEED to make more progress on my Integra motor (Motor build stopped 1.5 years ago because I bought the FD)
I'm right here with you. My daily driver Integra has a H23A VTEC swap that was poorly done by a "friend" who is no longer a friend. Just get them driveable and fun again! Doesn't matter if you have 100hp or 300hp, just as long as you can hit the canyons consistently and dance around the limits on those slick Oregon backroads.
During the summer, I hope to have the rest of the Integra sorted out, and even wrapped. Doing it MY way, which is $$$, but reliable and FAST.
The Fabrication on my FB Rx7 restarts later this month.
Do you have your fuel pressure logging into the ecu? If you don't i'd highly recommend it. It really helped me clean my map up I used Eugene for the map. I still use wari for a lot of other things. I also lowered my VE #'s for my idle. I have the older PNP Select adaptronic not the new one.
I was trying to find info on this as I had saw somewhere of using fuel pressure through the external map wiring. Is this only for the new modular ecu? The wiring for the S6 PnP seems to be different and the only thing I can find is using the fuel temp for oil temp.
I haven't actually touched any settings with closed loop boost. The gains are still zero so I have only really messed with the "Minimum TPS" and "Maximum Duty Cycle" settings in Eugene and have added or reduced boost through messing with the base duty cycle table. After unchecking the multiplication box, I have not felt any difference in boost response. I just can't believe that the load difference between the dyno and the street are so drastically different. I'm sure a MAC valve would be helpful but I believe the stock control system will be able to get it right.
I know that I should be logging fuel pressure (Along with so many other variables) but I am not sadly. My setup is about as OEM as it gets for tuning. I believe that using the ECU 4 BAR MAP sensor would help a little bit under cruise but I haven't had time to plumb a line yet.
Surprisingly, the Oregon roads dry up over one sunny day so I've had my fair share of playing around on the backroads It's difficult setting aside my Integra to get the FD working but when the Integra is down, the FD will still be driving and I won't be stuck with my stock EH2 civic lol.
I was trying to find info on this as I had saw somewhere of using fuel pressure through the external map wiring. Is this only for the new modular ecu? The wiring for the S6 PnP seems to be different and the only thing I can find is using the fuel temp for oil temp.
Get the Innovate SSI-4+ If you already have a mtx-l you can dasiy chain it to get fuel pressure. Currently I have the MTX-l, TC-4(EGT's) and SSI-4+(right now only Fuel pressure going to ECU, going to add oil temp and oil pressure soon) https://www.rx7club.com/adaptronic-e...stall-1063269/
I haven't actually touched any settings with closed loop boost. The gains are still zero so I have only really messed with the "Minimum TPS" and "Maximum Duty Cycle" settings in Eugene and have added or reduced boost through messing with the base duty cycle table. After unchecking the multiplication box, I have not felt any difference in boost response. I just can't believe that the load difference between the dyno and the street are so drastically different. I'm sure a MAC valve would be helpful but I believe the stock control system will be able to get it right.
I know that I should be logging fuel pressure (Along with so many other variables) but I am not sadly. My setup is about as OEM as it gets for tuning. I believe that using the ECU 4 BAR MAP sensor would help a little bit under cruise but I haven't had time to plumb a line yet.
Surprisingly, the Oregon roads dry up over one sunny day so I've had my fair share of playing around on the backroads It's difficult setting aside my Integra to get the FD working but when the Integra is down, the FD will still be driving and I won't be stuck with my stock EH2 civic lol.
Sorry for the late reply. It would be extremely ideal to have the SSI-4 with oil temp, fuel pressure, and oil pressure. Unfortunately, I still have the completely stock fuel system aside from the fuel pump rewire and the FPD delete. When I go with a single turbo kit, I will have a new rail with better data logging which I am extremely excited for!
I took the car out the other day for a drive to dial in the boost some more and I reduced the duty cycle to about 50 percent after the transition. The car pulled fine with no overboost all the way through 3rd...but then I shifted into 4th and my datalogging shut off so either it boost spiked when I hit the throttle or the engine protection cut fuel due to a lean or rich mixture. My money would be on boost spiking or creeping but those are the two possibilities that I have come up with. I just really wish my laptop would have caught that part in the log.
Another weird thing is that my vacuum area above 3500 at partial throttle spikes the EGT to dangerous levels and I don't think it's from my timing table. What AFRs do people normally aim for to keep them down? My car seems to do around 14 when in those areas and I don't believe that's rich enough. Cruising around 60 to 70mph the car likes to hover around 14.0 and that keeps the EGT around 1400F which I am okay with. I'm thinking low 13s might help with this issue maybe even 12s but only time and logs will see!
Sorry for the late reply. It would be extremely ideal to have the SSI-4 with oil temp, fuel pressure, and oil pressure. Unfortunately, I still have the completely stock fuel system aside from the fuel pump rewire and the FPD delete. When I go with a single turbo kit, I will have a new rail with better data logging which I am extremely excited for!
I took the car out the other day for a drive to dial in the boost some more and I reduced the duty cycle to about 50 percent after the transition. The car pulled fine with no overboost all the way through 3rd...but then I shifted into 4th and my datalogging shut off so either it boost spiked when I hit the throttle or the engine protection cut fuel due to a lean or rich mixture. My money would be on boost spiking or creeping but those are the two possibilities that I have come up with. I just really wish my laptop would have caught that part in the log.
Another weird thing is that my vacuum area above 3500 at partial throttle spikes the EGT to dangerous levels and I don't think it's from my timing table. What AFRs do people normally aim for to keep them down? My car seems to do around 14 when in those areas and I don't believe that's rich enough. Cruising around 60 to 70mph the car likes to hover around 14.0 and that keeps the EGT around 1400F which I am okay with. I'm thinking low 13s might help with this issue maybe even 12s but only time and logs will see!
How exactly does your laptop miss it in the log? Were you not logging?
And where do you have egt probes in the oem twin manifold?
So I was data logging, but my laptop died right before that pull. I only have about 15 minutes before my laptop dies because the battery is old and it's a gaming laptop. I took the lean cut off because there is always the possibility stabbing the throttle will cause it to richen out just long enough for the cut to happen. The probes are within an inch of the exhaust port on the cast iron oem manifold so it's very possible that is the cause of the high readings.
Looks pretty well tuned across the boost region! There wasn't any significant knock across the boost region in any of the logs.
This is the Target AFR - AFR map which shows how far your actual AFR was off of the target in any given cell based on the log data averaged from the last log where a negative number is lean from target and positive is rich. I've think that once you get with +/- 0.25 its pretty well done, and from here its just a matter of picky fine tuning to get it spot on depending on how **** you are. Good work....its impressive how consistent it is between 11 and 13 PSI where in the 5400 rpm column has the AFR difference at -0.27 and -0.28.
Sooooo.....what's next?
Skeese
Please excuse my tuning newb ignorance, but how can I create this chart from my own logs?
03-27-17, 11:03 PM
Doing it MY way, which is $$$, but reliable and FAST.
It's difficult setting aside my Integra to get the FD working but when the Integra is down, the FD will still be driving and I won't be stuck with my stock EH2 civic lol.
