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my name is Austin and im from Pcola FL. Im starting a thread to keep track of my tunes and get pointers and help from the community. I have some exp. tuning when I had my 08 MS3 running a COBB AP. im by no means a pro tuner of even semi pro hahah. so take what I put out there with a grain of salt and feel free to correct me where necessary.
I have had my car for a little over 2 years and have built it from the ground up (rolling shell). I have had some great help along the way to include @Daleclark a guy local to me and has great knowledge about rotarys. He even helped me (aka did most the work) building my engine.
car mods are as follows
-Large street port
-BW S360 1.0 hotside
-apexi FMIC
-ID1000 prim /1680cc sec
-CJ motorsport fuel system
-400lpm fuel pump Teflon fuel lines
-Sakebomb AEM coils Direct fire
-FFE 36-1 trigger wheel
-x4 9 spark plugs
-RB 3" catless exhaust (single tip)
-AEM meth kit...... (installed but not used yet)
-Innovate WB hooked to ECU
below is my current map. I just added the ID1000s, FFE trigger wheel, and converted to direct fire so the map needs to do a little more closed loop learning. haven't done any WOt runs to see how the fuel is doing uptop.
I know the fuel map is looking a little ruff but hope to smooth it out now that I have gone to 300RPM increments.
goal is to tune to 13psi without meth then turn it on and work my way to 23psi
Main things I would like feed back on are:
1. Target AFR
2. Ignition 1 Table
3. Spark Split in correction tab
Split map looks fine. This is for 93 octane? Could be more conservative than needed for leading timing, but you can't be sure without a dyno.
Yes your fueling map is rough. Any kind of adaptive mode learning (whether it's on this ECU or some other brand) is subject to how well you can hold a speed and load point. As you move in and out of cells it's harder to get a smooth map.
Personally I would change the 3000rpm/25% to 14.0 AFR and 50% to 13.5 . You could probably go leaner than that in those cells even. With your current table you are going to get killed in highway fuel economy.
Split map looks fine. This is for 93 octane? Could be more conservative than needed for leading timing, but you can't be sure without a dyno.
Yes your fueling map is rough. Any kind of adaptive mode learning (whether it's on this ECU or some other brand) is subject to how well you can hold a speed and load point. As you move in and out of cells it's harder to get a smooth map.
Personally I would change the 3000rpm/25% to 14.0 AFR and 50% to 13.5 . You could probably go leaner than that in those cells even. With your current table you are going to get killed in highway fuel economy.
Thanks. yes this is for 93 octane. thanks for looking over the map. did about 60 miles today keeping it out of boost and trying to let it learn a bit more. seems to get pretty lean from 5k-7k getting around 17afr. going to add fuel there to be safe but don't plan on ever being at 7k@0psi.
I haven't driven enough to notice fuel economy impact but will change those values and see how it goes.
NOTE ON MAP: I went back to waste spark, having an issue with harness so till I mess with it its back to waste spark
Last edited by austin102085; 11-22-15 at 06:46 PM.
Thanks. yes this is for 93 octane. thanks for looking over the map. did about 60 miles today keeping it out of boost and trying to let it learn a bit more. seems to get pretty lean from 5k-7k getting around 17afr. going to add fuel there to be safe but don't plan on ever being at 7k@0psi.
You'll likely be there briefly on some kind of tip in/tip out move, or some other transient driving through twisty roads. It's best not to ignore it. Running lean in that area isn't so much of a knock risk but it might result in high EGT's which stresses your turbo manifold and turbo. Cracked manifolds are no fun.
I haven't driven enough to notice fuel economy impact but will change those values and see how it goes.
Ok. Try to take a good 10 minute dedicated log of you on a highway going 70-80 mph, like you are ona road trip. If you have cruise control working put that on. See how your boost goes up and down in normal cruising. Get that area dialed in well.
One thing you are going to have to think about long term is how you are going to handle this VE map. Adaptive tuning is good but it's only as good as the amount of time and quality of data fed into it. There are a lot of cells in the fuel VE map and the transitions between are rough and spotty. That's to be expected.
Even though the VE numbers are somewhat arbitrary values used for fuel calculation, the shape of the curves reflect physical characteristics of the engine. For a given boost the VE curve should increase with rpm up to some peak engine speed, say ~6500, and then it will fall off again. That exact speed depends on the turbo and on the porting. If VE just continues to increase forever, until the edge of the map, you will be very rich when the engine can't breathe well anymore. That could potentially mean a drop in power.
Here's a Power FC fuel map on a 2nd gen with a T67 turbo and large street port. The units here correlate to injector pulsewidth, rather than being a VE type table. Either way you can see fueling peaking at 6800 rpm and gradually tapering down after that. On an FD with stock ports and stock turbo, fueling peaks at a lower rpm and falls off a lot harder because the engine doesn't breathe so well. If we understand the breathing characteristics of the engine, it can help us extrapolate what the VE table should be.
Here is a VE table on a Megasquirt 3 for a 1.6 liter turbo Miata running stock cams and I believe a GT25 turbo. See how the VE peaks at 5000rpm, holds flat at 5500, and then tapers down? That characteristic is due to the stock cams. The last two rpm columns are actually past the rev limit of the engine so they were just carried over. Many of the harder to reach cells were set by extrapolation. The Engine was put into WOT at 1500rpm and held there by the dyno brake, and then the brake walked the engine speed up to redline at a steady ramp rate in order to collect data for optimizing the VE table at full boost. Then that could be interpolated and extrapolated to get the medium boost levels.
The MS3 does have adaptive fuel tuning but you run into this same issue of trying to hit the right cells and being able to blend them together and work with the closed loop fueling so that AFR is stable and optimized. The VE table above was first done on the street in idle, off idle, cruising areas, with some initial WOT done on the street. Then it was interpolated and extrapolated to create an initial map for use on a loading dyno.
On the dyno there was steady state testing done to tweak the VE cells by holding a steady speed and load with the brake and throttle pedal. Then the brake controlled consistently timed WOT pulls to optimize the VE. Only a small amount of closed loop correction is used on top of this, so that the closed loop isn't a crutch or a source of instability.
Having said all that, it leads you to a few choices:
1) stick with the disjointed, jumpy VE table. Hope it's good enough when combined with closed loop to not have too crazy of AFR fluctuations
2) spend a ton of time on the street trying to hit a bunch of cells and feed the ECU enough good sustained time for it to adapt and get most of the cells you think you will use
3) spend money on a loading dyno time to hit the cells you need. This is still problematic at high loads due to high EGT and temperature but at cruising it's not a big deal. At high loads you need to do rpm sweeps with the dyno brake. It's best to have a more experienced tuner with you to show you how to run a loading dyno. A novice can do ok with typical dynojet pulls, but loading dynos are trickier.
4) get in there in the software and use the interpolation functions to smooth out disjointed cells. Use the software or Excel formulas to extrapolate areas that can't be easily tuned, like 7000rpm atmospheric pressure.
It will probably end up being acceptable using methods #1 and #2, which are what most DIYers just learning tuning will do. #3 and #4 are the more advanced tuning methods that I demonstrated with the 2nd gen Rx-7 Power FC pulsewidth map and the turbo Miata VE map. Without careful interpolation and intelligent extrapolation it's going to be tough to avoid having AFR jumps and rich/lean areas on your engine.
It will probably end up being acceptable using methods #1 and #2, which are what most DIYers just learning tuning will do. #3 and #4 are the more advanced tuning methods that I demonstrated with the 2nd gen Rx-7 Power FC pulsewidth map and the turbo Miata VE map. Without careful interpolation and intelligent extrapolation it's going to be tough to avoid having AFR jumps and rich/lean areas on your engine.
Thanks for the feed back. Great read. I went and did a long drive on highway and had my GF with the laptop. As I was in 4th or 5th running thru rpms I kept it at a specific vacume and watched the AFR. I would have her hit + or - in each cell as I went up to try and keep it around 14.?. and then I did this with -15, -12, -9, -5, and 0 took a solid hour or so. I then flipped it over to closed loop and ran a log and many of the points were with in 1 AFR of what I was after, I then talked to a tuner I know in the area and had a 2 hour discussion about interpolation and when and when not to use it. I sent him a couple screen shots and finally smoothed out the vacuume portion of the map. if your looking at my fuel table you have to use "27 points" to see the full rpm range due to my 300rpm set values. after this I again took it out and did a long highway run to check AFRs. the need a little more work but its better than it was.
Thanks for the feed back. Great read. I went and did a long drive on highway and had my GF with the laptop. As I was in 4th or 5th running thru rpms I kept it at a specific vacume and watched the AFR. I would have her hit + or - in each cell as I went up to try and keep it around 14.?. and then I did this with -15, -12, -9, -5, and 0 took a solid hour or so. I then flipped it over to closed loop and ran a log and many of the points were with in 1 AFR of what I was after, I then talked to a tuner I know in the area and had a 2 hour discussion about interpolation and when and when not to use it. I sent him a couple screen shots and finally smoothed out the vacuume portion of the map. if your looking at my fuel table you have to use "27 points" to see the full rpm range due to my 300rpm set values. after this I again took it out and did a long highway run to check AFRs. the need a little more work but its better than it was.
Map note: direct fire still off, closed loop
I wouldn't be tuning to 14:1afr at 0psi.See arghx afr guide above. You want to be around 12.8 afr around atmospheric pressure and tapering down to 11.5 afr around 10~12psi.
The point I was trying to make about AFR is that if you are Cruising at say 2500rpm and you give it 1/4 throttle you might hit 0psi. You don't have to have your AFR in the 12s there if your spark isn't overly advanced. If you want to do that, fine, but slight throttle boost while cruising is low risk for knock with premium fuel.
I just found this thread which is motivation for me to get mine back up to date. I got super busy and was updating the tune daily daily and the thread sadly became a non-priority. I'm subscribed and in for results and any info that comes with them! I am by no means a professional either and anything I say should be taken as salt as well...
I pretty much run closed loop in vacuum with a map that is close in this region and then open loop above 4 PSI. I highly advise against attempting to tune anything above 0 PSI with the ECU in closed loop. I attempted to use the closed loop 'trim' value to estimate the fuel correction needed in the fuel map but I was never able to produce any predictable results doing so.
While the ECU running in closed loop feels like a big safety net for tuning it also has a downside. I found that when the map was so rich that the ECU was having to make a large correction (6-7% fuel trim) to hit the target AFR it would over-correct and I'd end up leaner than target with it still subtracting fuel. I also had instances where the car was lean and the ECU was making a large positive trim and overshooting the target, leaving my wondering why the ECU was adding fuel when I was already rich. Point being...getting everything tuned in open loop really is the way to go, then run closed loop once you have the AFR close to target across the range.
Wanted to post a screenshot of my current of my current map.
I started with a base map from a similar motor/turbo setup tuned by Elliot of Turblown and then added a ton of fuel and tuned down in the boost region. Some of the map has been smoothed out through interpolation and the rest was tuned based on open loop tuning of my fuel map based on wideband O2 readings. Its cool how over the course of AFR tuning the map starts to take shape. I'm currently on the 500 RPM step size as it makes tuning go alot faster and once I get my AFR's dialed in to be super close I'll expand it and fine tune it. I find that its ALOT easier to smooth out the map with the larger RPM scale at first just to get it some shape.
sorry I haven't replied I have been out of town. I received the AFR sensor in the mail and will be putting it back in and continuing next week. temps where I live have stayed in the high 60 and 70s so im gonna keep going till it drops off. can you post a pic of how your timing is. I have been told mine is conservative for the 93 octane we have here on the gulf coast. thanks for the feed back and I think I will be tuning in open loop because this is all over the place as of late. I am also trying to figure out a nozzle size for meth and will be tuning without it then adding it in for safety and cooling.
I'm running E85 so my timing is going to be too aggressive for your setup especially during initial tuning. That being said I have a timing map interpolated from a super guru's GT35R map that I could send you. It is really conservative, but you need that for initial AFR tuning of a rough map.
Honestly the benefits of advanced timing will really only be measurable and safe once you have the fuel map dialed in to hold solid target AFR's and you are on a dyno watching the numbers (again my word is grain of salt...never been on a dyno here). From everything I've read and the experts I've pestered to death I've only heard the same thing which is that you need a conservative timing map and once you have your fuel map dialed in to run your target AFRs then advance the timing until gains become minimal or you encounter knock.
I can't comment on methanol as I never ran it. I jumped directly to E85 and never looked back, however I know a few people who have been extremely successful with it. I would honestly just run water and forget the methanol until you get the fuel map smoothed out. Pure water will serve as a safety net during rough tuning and the methanol can be added later once the map is close and you want to lean it up or start advancing timing. I'd be glad to look at you logs and help with the fuel map.
Thanks Skeese. I'm finding hard to start the engine with 2200cc primaries. I'll read through all your info and will update here soon. I have a similar setup to yours. Street port with BW 363 1.00ex a/r. 4 x 2200cc injectors. Running a lift pump into a Nuke performance surge tank with 2 Walbro 450. My fuel setup is this way to future proof it as i'll be running a stronger engine/turbo setup soon. 3.5inch dp into 4inch till the back etc etc etc
I know what you mean. I have an RX8 with AEM intake that sits low in front bumper and I went through a deep *** puddle a couple weeks ago when it was raining for 2 days straight. I was lucky that I didn't crack the block when the water got sucked up the intake and stalled the engine. I was only idling so didn't have a hydrolic lock at high rpm thank god. I just picked up this AEM adapter that prevents hydrolic lock and will be installing it soon. Allows the intake to take air from engine bay area up top if water gets sucked in from the front filter.
made a couple pulls today, car sounds to be misfiring at WOT. gonna pull the plugs and replace them prolly. log looks good running a bit richer than it should but lookin good. here is the recent log and map to go with it. Thanks
Map notes: Direct fire, changed the closed loop to Zero PSI, and changed the split timing back to what I had.
Finally had a chance to look over your log and tune file.
You were right to change the closed loop fuel control to only function under 0 PSI. You want to tune the boost region of the fuel map in open loop and then swap to run closed loop once it is close. I find that it is extremely difficult to accurately modify fuel cells while the ECU is trimming fuel.
Was the log you posted before this change or after? I ask because the ECU shows that it was still trimming +4% fuel throughout the entire pull. I was experiencing a similar reading in my logs at one point and questioned why the ECU was trimming fuel when it was above the closed loop threshold. The instant you cross the 0 PSI mark ECU will drop the closed loop fuel correction to 0 and it is likely these trims are coming from elsewhere.
If you check the "coolant enrichment" high and low map tables (located in the correction tab) you will see that your coolant enrichment for Hi-map is still set to be trimming ~2% when the engine is at a water temperature of 174F which you were at throughout the duration of the pull.
Essentially the coolant enrichment hi/low map tables are what controls the additional fuel the engine receives when it is warming up and in theory when the engine is full warm there will be no additional fuel being added. I found that the values in the basemap caused my car to warm up extremely rich and to stumble through the warm up process as the hi and low map values were too far apart from each other. The ECU interpolates a final trim value between these two maps and if the values are too spread out then it can cause the engine to hunt during the warm up process.
I reduced the values such that my car now warms up while holding a 12.5 AFR then settles into idle around 13.0 when it quits trimming. The base map values also continue to trim fuel all the way up to 176F. While this may have been ok for a car with a stock cooling system and intercooler I routinely see 174-176F water temps during the colder days with air flowing through my V-Mount.
What I would do here is to first set coolant enrichment high map to mirror the low map which should be zero'd out at 167F. This will eliminate the warmup trim being added during a pull as you shouldn't see normal driving temps below 170F at any point. This will also smooth out the idle during warm-up. You can reduce the values later to alter the AFR during warm up if you want and once you are happy with that go back into the coolant enrichment hi map and add ~5% or so to the final values.
NEXT: Air temp correction.
I noticed that you have values set for air temperature correction. Do you have a fast acting AIT sensor? The OEM one is prone to heat soak which can cause skewed readings and lean out the car during a pull. I believe that during initial tuning you are going to want to zero these values out and once your base map is set go in and work out what values are needed above and below the general temperature your map is tuned at to produce the correct value, but they could at this point skew your ability to correctly modify the fuel map based on log values. You could go ahead and set it to add fuel for safety in the extremely low temperature ranges so if you do pull when its cold out you'd be covered, but I'd caution using it to remove fuel at higher temperatures until you have a fast acting sensor and the fuel map sorted.
I would hold off on modifying the fuel map from the existing log and wait to do so until you can eliminate the additional fuel trims. It appears that with the trims (4% in total) you are seeing an AFR of 10.8-11.0 so you are in a very safe place for 13 PSI to start from however it will be easier and more accurate to sort your fuel cells when there is no trim being applied.
Keep it up! It looks like alot of progress has been made from your first map! Take everything I say with a grain of salt, I am no pro. Any pro's out there please feel free to correct me if you see anything I'm missing!
I have taken the advice and zeroed out the air temp. your right on with thinking my car is running lower temps vs a stock car or something. im running a Apexi FMIC and I duno if you have seen them but they are HUGE and cool the air like nothing else.
also I pulled back on the water temps too.
Altho im having some issue with the car breaking up and misfiring at WOT. I changed out the plugs to NGK BR10EIX gaped to 0.020. I also lowered the idle to 1100 and the idle AFR to 12.6 and the car idles much better now. the Trim went down from -6 to 0% at idle. but for some crazy reason the "adaptive" feature kicked in and wacked my map all to hell on the drive home. I have fixed it and not sure why it did what it did.
any way tommarow is sunday and im hopeing to make a log or two and will post them here.
program on right is how it should be and left is what it changed.
I was getting that same big fuel hike in a similar area when I was running the adaptive tuning. After much time and frustration I found that the culprit was the predictable map and async gain settings. When you "Asynch Gain" is too high and/or you have "extra sensitive throttle" selected, this can cause bucking in the low rpms if you aren't perfectly steady on the throttle and cause the adaptive tuner to throw insane values into the map.
I noticed that in your map you have "extra sensitive throttle" selected which is likely the cause. When using the adaptive tuning feature you want to avoid sharp changes in throttle anyways.
so good improvements today. no more misfiring at high rpms. Tho it is at like 7500-8k but I thinks its due to 10.5 and below ARFs. but I haven't really tuned for those rpms yet so richer is better. any way im still getting 4% trim at WOT. I think its still the "cool enrichment high map" im seeing temps of 169* the whole pull. So im going to pull those down some more and see how it goes from there. other than that im still good at my current AFRs and will continue to play with it till all the trim is gone and I can truly set the fuel map right.
trim on the first pull was higher due to the WT being around 163-165 for the pull. hope this fixes it
I also changed the idle AFRs a bit and lowered the idle.
here are two logs both 3rd gear and the map. tune 1.9 was the map these logs were made, and 2.0 are the appropriate corrections
11-18-15, 03:21 AM
BW S360 tuning adventure
