Skeese

iTrader: (11)

Hi all!

Super excited to be making the PFC to Adaptronic swap this weekend! Most everyone in the area is still glued to their power fc so I'm pumped to be the oddball.

I have the Series 6 PnP, Innovative MTX-L, and the mac solenoid. Question is, how does the ECU control the target boost level utilizing the stock wastegate and precontrol solenoids? If the mac is installed how will this affect boost control on the oem sequential setup?

I've read nearly every relevant thread on here and probably every single rx7 thread on the adaptronic forum...maybe I just missed something? Or listed to the right part the wrong way?

Thanks!

-Seth

James Paventi

iTrader: (34)

If you treat the stock boost control solenoids or alternatively the MAC valve as you would when using the PFC, you'll do fine.

I've never felt that the Adaptronic did as good a job as the PFC at controlling the pre-spool and merging of the two turbos. The PFC does it based on throttle position and so allows you to delay the merging under light load.

Look at the "Special Functions" tab and then "Twin turbo control" section of WARI. As I understand this (and I've never felt that I fully did) the "Twin turbo RPM" is when the merging occurs and the "Precontrol time (ms)" is how soon before the "Twin turbo RPM" that the ECU begins to pre-spool the secondary turbo.

Maybe Andy or someone else will chime in and educate us.

AdaptronicAus

James is right. The Adaptronic activates the precontrol valve a fixed amount of time before it hits the twin turbo RPM setting. It doesn't have a crystal ball though, it looks at the RPM rate, eg if your RPM is increasing at the rate of 1000 RPM/second, and you select 300ms, and your twin turbo RPM is 4400, then it will switch at 4100 RPM.

It will only engage the second turbo when you're above the "min MAP" setting for the wastegate control though. I'm told that the factory ECU activates the 2nd turbo based on RPM only... Also I'm told (and this was my experience as well) that the more boost you have on the primary turbo, the bigger the "dip" relatively during the transition. Here's a pretty much stock one that I did with Ric Shaw here, you can see we have a bigger dip than the factory ECU but that's because we're running more boost on the first turbo.

I tried to attach our latest start guide document as well, this will be included in a future software release but it talks about how to set up boost control valves (among other things). If you use the factory system with the bleed and the restrictor pill then the cars I've tested on have made about 15 PSI with 100% duty cycle. I don't know how much they would make using a 3 port MAC valve and blocking off the venting port on the actuator. However 3MB is above the forum limit. I'll see if I can ask the guys to host it and post a link.

Thanks!
Andy

MarkG

Hi everyone,

The setup guide will be available here - Installation Guide: RX7 S6 FD Plugin ECU

We will be uploading a 2-part file so that we can workaround that file size limit, but as Andy said the file will be included in future releases of the software installer.

Thanks!

James Paventi

iTrader: (34)

Andy, Mark,

Thanks for the response! I thoroughly enjoy your ECU and your support is fantastic.

I'm sure that I'll learn something by reading your guide.

best,

James

Skeese

iTrader: (11)

Thanks everyone! I think I'm going to hold off on the MAC valve for now and wait until my single setup gets in and just run off the factory solenoids for the time being. I didn't make it to the swap this weekend as but the wide-band is in and everything is ready to go, only waiting on the serial cable to arrive today. I'll be starting with the base map as provided by Andy on the other forum and first start-up will hopefully be this Friday night.

MarkG

Good luck Seth! Let us know how you go.

Thanks James, if you think there something we need to add please let us know.

Cheers!

Skeese

iTrader: (11)

Is the base map found on the ecu with the most recent update the latest? I noticed it was slightly different than the one on the adaptronic site labeled RX7_S6_Sel_Basemap.ecu.

MarkG

Hi Seth,

Yes the latest base maps are always loaded into the plug-in ECUs after manufacturing. And yes it's the RX7_S6_Sel_Basemap.ecu (same file found in the Basemap folder inside the WARI installation folder).

We can check your current file if you email it to tech@adaptronic.com.au.

Thanks.

Skeese

iTrader: (11)

Thanks, seems like a dumb question after the fact...haven't had time with work but im planning to swap and tune over thanksgiving! I'll update once it's running, thanks!

Skeese

iTrader: (11)

Got everything set up for the first startup today. Loaded the base map that came with the latest software update. First time startup went fine, car started normally in open loop fuel conditions and settled at a nice 800 rpm idle. Once warmed up to 84* C, I cut it off in order to set the TPS. After which the car refuses to start. It will turn over and fire, however I have to work the throttle to keep it running and if I let off it wants to die. I reloaded the original base map thinking maybe I'd mistakenly changed something but now its acting the same....weird? maybe? any insight as to what my issue might be?

James Paventi

iTrader: (34)

Any luck with your hot startup issues?

The AIT heat soaks in our car and can cause a hot engine to run lean for a few minutes after it's started. After this the air moving over the sensor brings it close enough to reality to allow it to run normally (correct A/F ratio). I have a Triumph fast acting sensor in the manifold. It's aligned to the airflow and insulated with a paper gasket and still needs about 2 minutes on a hot day to read true. One of these days I'll try moving it near the intercooler exit.

Fiddle a bit with the "Enrichments" section of the "Corrections" tab in WARI. In the same tab, check the cranking fuel. This can be a hard one as your wideband isn't there to help you. I checked my water temp and made corrections for more fuel, tried starting, checked temp, made corrections for less fuel, etc. After a few tries I found the upper and lower limits that allowed the engine to run. I then set mine to the dead middle and it worked great. Pick a couple of points up and down the temp scale and do the same. After this just interpolate in-between and you should be good.

Lastly, look in the same section, same tab at "air temp correction". In general be aggressive when adding fuel for lower temps and easy when removing fuel for higher temps. This will help with the heat soaking air temp sensor issue when your engine is being started. It will also help prevent you from blowing your engine if you boost with a heat soaked temp sensor.

Hope that this helped!

Skeese

iTrader: (11)

Thanks James, this really is great information. I will definitively reference this when I next start up and continue. I found that by disableing VE for fuel map 1 in the tuning modes tab the car will start all fall into idle, however checking the VE for fuel map 1 box causes the motor to die immediately. The VE numbers for cranking fuel start at 200 at 0°C water temp and gradually reduce to 80 by 80°C. Is this number too high and possibly be causing my hot start issue? I also noticed in the base ignition map 1 there is 0 timing at the idle conditions and other maps I've seen seem to have some timing in this region.

Sorry for all the questions I'm relatively new to tuning especially outside of a pfc, however really really want to understand it.

Thanks!

Samito Built

iTrader: (38)

I would suggest taking a peak at the plugs make sure you accidently didn't flood it. I've had similar experineces in the past with different EMS.

James Paventi

iTrader: (34)

Welcome.

I think that Samito Built is on the right track.

Take a look at my cranking map:


You're a bit rich at 80c compared to mine.

Check out my thread here: https://www.rx7club.com/adaptronic-e...e-map-1033267/

Grab my map and do some comparisons. Might get you asking questions and help you understand the VE tuning. Note that you can switch between C and F by pulling the Options menu down and choosing Units. Nothing wrong with C, I just think in F.

Skeese

iTrader: (11)

Hey guys, been a while work has been nuts.

I don't think I would have flooded it as when I plugged the PFC back in it fired right up no problems. Thus far from the base map I've updated the rpm points and maximum map value, updated the cranking fuel VE values for open loop idle to those provided by James above. I haven't made it to adjusting the closed loop conditions as I haven't had time to plug it in and give it another go, but I'm off this entire weekend.

I've attached my map that is currently loaded onto the ECU. Any help or advice is welcomed, I've read James's thread probably 10 times...still wrapping my head around it all.

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Cars with too small of batteries, improper battery relocations, and lower compression need much more fine tuning on starting conditions. I always recommend tuning the cranking map on a car by car basis anyhow.

I tuned Phil's bnr stage3 car a few days ago on both the oem boost solenoid and a mac valve. Both worked very well. With the oem solenoid it was maxxed out around 14psi. The mac valve allowed more. Transition was minimal too.

Skeese

iTrader: (11)

Ok, so I’ve spent much of the work week reading everything I can find on VE tuning trying to better understand what is going on before I get to it this weekend.
Pretty much walking myself through what I’ve learned here but please feel free to point out anything I may have gotten wrong.

VE numbers are arbitrary airflow percentages that affect the ecu’s calculation of the ms value required to spray the correct amount of fuel. Higher VE numbers result in higher ms values thus spraying more fuel. To begin tuning the VE Fuel map, I can set the entire map to 80 and then tune down from there using the rapid learn & slow converge tools as a guide.

For cranking the ECU reads the VE numbers from the base idle values as a function of water temperature. For initial tuning, I will need to adjust VE values in the idle cells in order to get the correct AFR ratio at this condition. It seems that adjusting the master fuel trim should only be used temporarily to get the engine to idle until the correct VE values can be determined based on the AFR at idle and as the VE cells are adjusted should be reduced back to zero. When the engine is warmed up I’ll need to set the TPS for 0% and 100%.

Once a stable idle has been established and the car is idling with the fuel corrections in open loop I next set up the closed loop parameters where proportional gain = 0, integral gain = 4 and maximum integral correction = 8. The minimum temperature for closed loop will be set at 60°C. Next, I’ll set the adaptive fuel parameters for rapid learning to have a 60-110°C water temp range, an rpm tolerance of 150 and a load tolerance of 5 kPa as the fuel map 1 map rows increase in increments of 14 kPa. The stabilize time and update period should both be set to 150ms and the minimum engine rpm to 1400.

At this point I should be able to set the fuel corrections to rapid learning and go for a *slow* drive during which the ECU will begin adjusting the VE fuel map numbers to the required values to achieve the target AFR. I understand how the ECU can only adjust the cells as the engine remains in that region for the required time. I can then use the cells the engine manages to ‘tune’ as a guide to hand pick the values around them.

Assuming I haven’t missed anything or gotten anything crucially wrong in my process above then the remaining questions I have are:

1. The manual specifies that for adaptive fuel tuning to take place the ECU must not be in fuel or ignition cut mode. Does this mean that the fuel and ignition cut boxes in the power cut tab cannot be selected or that no learning takes place when the ECU is actively cutting fuel or ignition?

2. The timing map 1 as provided on the base tune for the series 6 ecu has 0° of timing in at all rpm values under 1000. Shouldn't there be at least 10° in this region to support a proper idle? Most all other rotary timing maps I've seen have some in there.

Thanks for sticking with me through this. I’m one to want to understand what is going on and have enjoyed learning all I have thus far. I’m definitely looking forward to learning more and getting some real results. Please let me know if I've gotten anything wrong here or am missing anything crucial.

MarkG

Hi Seth,

I think you got the VE tuning basics correct, and you've probably seen Andy's VE tuning video, but I'll still post it here -
You can start with the VE base map though and you don't need to start with 80% all across. Cranking in VE mode is the same thing, but I think you've changed the wrong table (i.e. base idle). The one that James suggested to tweak (thanks James!) is the cranking fuel, and I took a screenshot so you can locate it easily.

I'd personally prefer tuning initially by hand in open loop. This is so you can get the fuel map as close to what is needed, so the ECU doesn't need to make big trims when in closed loop.

If you wish to use Adaptive fuel tuning, then first of all it has to be in closed loop fuel. You can tell if it’s in closed loop fuel because the target AFR goes black instead of red, and on the F11 window, there’s a section called “Flags” near the top right – Closed Lp Fuel will be highlit in green if it’s in closed loop fuel mode.

Then further down on the right on the F11 window there’s a section called “Learning State”, and it has FWAIT, FLOAD and FRPM. Quoting Andy:

"FRPM means that the RPM is close enough to the RPM point in the map for the ECU to adjust it (this is set in “RPM Tolerance” in the adaptive settings). Normally I’d have this at about 100 or so or 200 if I’m doing a really rough tune to get it close at first

FLOAD means that the MAP is close enough to the MAP point in the map for the ECU to adjust it (this is set in the “Load tolerance” in the adaptive settings). Normally I’d have this set to about ¼ of the distance between the load points, eg if they’re spaced at 20 kPa then I’d put 6 kPa as the load tolerance.

FWAIT means that we’ve entered a new cell and it’s waiting to stabilize before making the first correction (that’s the time to stabilize setting in the adaptive settings, I’d set that to about 500 ms to give the O2 sensor time to react)."

MarkG

As for your questions:

1. Adaptive fuel tuning only gets disabled when the ECU is actively doing a power cut. Having the checkboxes selected does not disable Adaptive tuning right away.

2. I'm not sure as well why we have the basemap at 0°. I'm guessing this might be because of the old way we check the base timing on the FD which requires the idle part of the ignition map to be set at 0°. I will have to get back to you on this for certainty.

Thanks.

Skeese

iTrader: (11)

Thanks, please do let me know what you find. I've read all the how-to setup and check the timing initially but didn't see anything regarding adding timing into that region after the base timing was checked. I knew I might have had the wrong table but was thinking that since the cranking fuel table was in corrections it might have been for closed loop or something. When really it is the correction of VE numbers against water temperature. One face-palm at a time...

James Paventi

iTrader: (34)

Hi Seth,

Wow ... congratulations on this. I can appreciate the s. I'm fairly certain that I do just as many now as when I started tuning. The more I learn the more I realize what I don't know.

You covered a lot but here are some thoughts.

Focus on a car that runs first. After this tweak one parameter at a time. It's easy to complicate things by visualizing in your mind the changes in parameters that are needed. Put another way limit yourself to one variable at a time after you get the car running.

The idle timing should be near -5deg at and around idle if you expect to obtain the smooth 720rpm idle that a stock (or PFC) ecu can manage. You can't see this in the PFC maps as there is a hidden idle map. 10deg will be difficult to work with in terms of idle. The 0deg limit that the Adaptronic allows is workable around 850ish rpms with a 12.5:1 AFR. Play with more timing or a leaner AFR and things start to bounce around and stall out. My understanding is that even the stock ports are aggressive on our engines. They're the equivalent of a hot cam in a piston engine and low timing helps with idle.

There's a lot of art to go with the science when tuning. The PFC tuning group that I pitched in my tuning thread is very worth joining. Much of my palf to face action came from assumptions that were based on science when art needed to be applied. Sure, it's all science but there are so many variables that our ecus science can't hold up perfectly under every condition (for example).

best,

James

Skeese

iTrader: (11)

Woohoo! Finally a real update. Got the car up and running smoothly today on the adaptronic.

I was having the same issue on startup as before, and gave Zach at Addicted Performance a call as he had PM'd me his number to troubleshoot my setup. I was using the OEM map sensor which nowhere near correctly calibrated. I plugged in the internal 4 bar and presto fired right up and idled smoothly at 850 rpms. I began adjusting the VE map for idle and no load conditions. It appears that the ECU needs about -10% trim from the base fuel map to run at the set AFR's so I can gradually pull some fuel out of the map.

I will now begin slowly modifying my map and finally be able to sell the PFC for fuel injector money . Thanks again guys, looking forward to learning more and moving forward! I'm sure I'll be back with more questions before long.

Skeese

iTrader: (11)

So I've been working on my fuel map, mostly the idle cells and <4000 rpm region have dialed in what I believe to be a 'safe' base tune. This will only really be used to move the car around as I got a call saying my single turbo setup will be shipped within the week, so no real point in investing much more into it until then. Few questions though...

I had previously bypassed the upper clutch switch as time had caused it to wear and wasn't depressing correctly, this is how the ecu will sense the clutch being engaged thus triggering the related outputs correct? I will need to re-wire and actually fix the issue I believe in order to use the functions activated by the depressed clutch.

Next, when I was out driving/tuning the other day my hks twin power caught harness caught fire...I noticed smoke from under the hood, cut it off, and then found the full length of the TP harness had melted. I can't think of any reason the ecu swap would have caused this issue but it is strange timing as this was the longest I'd been out on the adaptronic to date and the harness had shown no wear before, maybe the TP just died...direct fire here I come, just thought I'd mention it.

Lastly, is there any way to get my hands on some adaptronic decals? I'm definitely the only 7 person here running one and want to rep being the oddball would be glad to send $$ or whatever.

Happy new years guys! and thanks again

scruggyj

iTrader: (5)

I have one I can mail you. I will send it tomorrow.