Percent of Engine Swap FDs
09-03-15, 10:49 PM
#127
Spanking Pcars
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: DFW area
Posts: 1,084
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Playing Devils Advocate, the question that begs to be answered is, was there a 3 rotor blown at Deals Gap few year ago or not??? 
I am a fan of the Rotary engine, but have no issues with anyone putting a V8 or inline 6 on an RX7.
I am a fan of the Rotary engine, but have no issues with anyone putting a V8 or inline 6 on an RX7.
09-03-15, 11:57 PM
#128
Someone from a well named shop just told me the other day that break in miles is a myth...
Im still laughing at his statement bahahaha!.
Sorry I had to share.
As a lover of v8's to the soul I still have stuck with rotaries through thick and thin.. They have treated me well as well as brought me lots of money over the years. Its just something im really good at.
I wouldnt mind still swapping a ls into the rx8 but that will have to wait till the 20beest is finished.
Im still laughing at his statement bahahaha!.
Sorry I had to share.
As a lover of v8's to the soul I still have stuck with rotaries through thick and thin.. They have treated me well as well as brought me lots of money over the years. Its just something im really good at.
I wouldnt mind still swapping a ls into the rx8 but that will have to wait till the 20beest is finished.
09-04-15, 07:09 AM
#130
All out Track Freak!
iTrader: (263)
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Charlottesville VA 22901
Posts: 10,672
Received 412 Likes
on
250 Posts
Someone from a well named shop just told me the other day that break in miles is a myth...
Im still laughing at his statement bahahaha!.
Sorry I had to share.
As a lover of v8's to the soul I still have stuck with rotaries through thick and thin.. They have treated me well as well as brought me lots of money over the years. Its just something im really good at.
I wouldnt mind still swapping a ls into the rx8 but that will have to wait till the 20beest is finished.
Im still laughing at his statement bahahaha!.
Sorry I had to share.
As a lover of v8's to the soul I still have stuck with rotaries through thick and thin.. They have treated me well as well as brought me lots of money over the years. Its just something im really good at.
I wouldnt mind still swapping a ls into the rx8 but that will have to wait till the 20beest is finished.
09-04-15, 08:12 AM
#131
I have had LS motors that have had issues with collapsed lifters and rod bearings. Difference is you don't see me pulling out a laundry list of excuses to cover up the fact that the parts just plain failed.
Well, what happened, the altitude and barometric pressure, coupled with sub par oil viscosity and it was a strong El Nino that year....and yeah, it wasn't the motors fault tho. Give me a break...
-Austin
Last edited by turbodrx7; 09-04-15 at 08:22 AM.
09-04-15, 08:45 AM
#132
I think he is trying to say that the engine wasn't broken in and "proven" at the time it failed. Probably rushed to get it there to show off his "creation" that he didn't build.
Gordon, your self-congratulating, elitist attitude isn't earning you any respect.
Gordon, your self-congratulating, elitist attitude isn't earning you any respect.
Last edited by Andre The Giant; 09-04-15 at 08:50 AM.
09-04-15, 08:47 AM
#133
Spanking Pcars
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: DFW area
Posts: 1,084
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah. No problem saying did my 3 rotor seize at Deals Gap some years ago. Yes, It did. As I have said, Speed1 had never built one and told me a little late that they didn't think it was right when they delivered it, fresh, and with no break in miles. I think I said that again recently in this thread. I had Defined Auto rebuild it and it has never had a problem since. When anyone talks about a motor failing, they should mean a motor failing that was running. Not one that has never been run.
G
G
Why did you go to Speed 1?
Knowing you from back in the happier days with Peter Farrel and how attentive to detail and specific about what your goals are, how could this happen to you again???
My first question would be with a project like this is, How many 20B have you built?
Is there another lawsuit in place or is it all on you know?
Last edited by RedBaronII; 09-04-15 at 08:49 AM.
09-04-15, 09:07 AM
#135
All out Track Freak!
iTrader: (263)
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Charlottesville VA 22901
Posts: 10,672
Received 412 Likes
on
250 Posts
Im confused. How did it get to Deals Gap if it wasn't running? The car wasn't driven down on that motor and then blew up down there? Verified with a compression tester in a parking lot? Still cant give a straight answer cuz it might look bad for the bulletproof 20B I guess. No one cares what your excuse for it is. Truthfully, your not an expert, so your opinion doesn't matter much anyways. The motor failed, period.
I have had LS motors that have had issues with collapsed lifters and rod bearings. Difference is you don't see me pulling out a laundry list of excuses to cover up the fact that the parts just plain failed.
Well, what happened, the altitude and barometric pressure, coupled with sub par oil viscosity and it was a strong El Nino that year....and yeah, it wasn't the motors fault tho. Give me a break...
-Austin
I have had LS motors that have had issues with collapsed lifters and rod bearings. Difference is you don't see me pulling out a laundry list of excuses to cover up the fact that the parts just plain failed.
Well, what happened, the altitude and barometric pressure, coupled with sub par oil viscosity and it was a strong El Nino that year....and yeah, it wasn't the motors fault tho. Give me a break...
-Austin
In other words there are way too many important custom parts that have a big chance of failing that will in turn cause the engine to fail. There's a massive, repeat MASSIVE difference between building a reliable 3 rotor and building a reliable v8. The 3 rotor block or for that matter any rotor block has been proven to be very good once ironed out (ie oiling issues with the 1st renesis blah blah) it's all the other stuff that complicates it and makes in unreliable.
So F#CK yes any rotary engine is going to be much less reliable than an LS all things equal.
The rotary engine hasn't had anywhere near the improvements or engineering that stands behind the LS/piston engine and yet it's still a damn good engine. As far as the swap goes there are some good LS kits that make the LS swap super easy along with all the other bolt on accessories, ecu, shops, tuning blah blah.
I'm surprised Gordon's second engine is still running LOL. However I'm betting when it does die it won't be the block's fault
There is no comparing the two. It's apples and steak or both are food but not even in the same bowl or on the same plate.
09-04-15, 11:18 AM
#137
What exactly makes the 3-Rotor unreliable vs the LSx? A lot of people may laugh at this question, but in my experiences over the years, the only things that make the rotary unreliable are:
1. Build mistakes
2. Tuning mistakes
3. Old Parts that Fail
Comparatively, these 3 things are just as crucial to the v8.
The difference is that when something fails its usually not as catastrophic
However, this does not mean the Rotary by nature is any less reliable.
Lets consider we are going to build a 750hp track car, we could go two routes for example. Budget or $
1. An LS or a Rotary - Used Block, Unknown condition other than compression test
2. Dodgy wiring / used wiring harness
3. Ebay Fuel Pressure Regulator, Knock-off fuel pumps
4. ebay wastegate
5. home rebuild without proper clearances
You get the idea
The difference is when the fuel system / tuning fails on the LS, because of a crappy build, the motor is cheaper to replace / rebuild / repair vs a 10,000 3 rotor
However, all things being equal..
1. New fuel system
2. new ecu
3. properly built motor
4. proper oil pressure
5. proper wiring
6. proper failsafe measures
7. proper wastegate lines
^with all these in place, what by nature makes one more unreliable then the other?
Reflecting back on my experience with the 20b, there were no custom parts that wouldn't be applicable to the LS. Oil coolers, radiator, intercooler piping, subframe, wiring, ecu, fpr, fuel pumps, etc...everything is the same. In fact, there's less going on, No valve train/cams/rods/crank mods etc
In my opinion, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if its a 13b, 20b, 26b, 2jz, RB26, or a LSX, if you build it properly, with the correct supporting mods, these are all fully capable motors of serious horsepower potential, proven time and time again, which is reflected by the demand/prices
Now, aside from all of this, from a Financial Risk standpoint, the rotary is unarguably higher as the replacement cost is greater, however this can't immediately be associated as less reliable engine. If costs were the same, we likely wouldn't have this debate. But the same can be said about making massive power on a Porsche GT3.
I think a lot of people are put off by the 20b because on this forum swaps appear to take 10 years and cost $250,000. This leads readers to believe this engine is some kind of mystical unicorn Dorito bag that will break the bank at any moment. After all when you see so many 13b's fail from overboosting on stock wastegate with open exhaust, you think, hell a 3rd rotor sounds even worse!
Truth is, at the end of the day its just a f*cking engine. And a little keg with 3 triangles inside. Stick it in the car, make the necessary parts to hook all the junk you need up to it and drive it. If there were no swap kits out there and companies like Samberg and Hinson to make the precious LSX swap so easy, I'd put my money that it wouldn't be any easier than a 3 rotor. In fact you have to deal with a t-56, tranny mounts ,drive shaft, ETC And twin-turbocharging the LSX is insane. Just helped a RBKouki install headers on his LSX, those things BARELY fit. Good luck with turbos, oil lines intercoolering, fuel and tuning. Costs are no different
P.S.
For those that say the'd take a 13b on stock boost because that's reliable....this 20b makes 490RWHP @ 8.5PSI
1. Build mistakes
2. Tuning mistakes
3. Old Parts that Fail
Comparatively, these 3 things are just as crucial to the v8.
The difference is that when something fails its usually not as catastrophic
However, this does not mean the Rotary by nature is any less reliable.
Lets consider we are going to build a 750hp track car, we could go two routes for example. Budget or $
1. An LS or a Rotary - Used Block, Unknown condition other than compression test
2. Dodgy wiring / used wiring harness
3. Ebay Fuel Pressure Regulator, Knock-off fuel pumps
4. ebay wastegate
5. home rebuild without proper clearances
You get the idea
The difference is when the fuel system / tuning fails on the LS, because of a crappy build, the motor is cheaper to replace / rebuild / repair vs a 10,000 3 rotor
However, all things being equal..
1. New fuel system
2. new ecu
3. properly built motor
4. proper oil pressure
5. proper wiring
6. proper failsafe measures
7. proper wastegate lines
^with all these in place, what by nature makes one more unreliable then the other?
Reflecting back on my experience with the 20b, there were no custom parts that wouldn't be applicable to the LS. Oil coolers, radiator, intercooler piping, subframe, wiring, ecu, fpr, fuel pumps, etc...everything is the same. In fact, there's less going on, No valve train/cams/rods/crank mods etc
In my opinion, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if its a 13b, 20b, 26b, 2jz, RB26, or a LSX, if you build it properly, with the correct supporting mods, these are all fully capable motors of serious horsepower potential, proven time and time again, which is reflected by the demand/prices
Now, aside from all of this, from a Financial Risk standpoint, the rotary is unarguably higher as the replacement cost is greater, however this can't immediately be associated as less reliable engine. If costs were the same, we likely wouldn't have this debate. But the same can be said about making massive power on a Porsche GT3.
I think a lot of people are put off by the 20b because on this forum swaps appear to take 10 years and cost $250,000. This leads readers to believe this engine is some kind of mystical unicorn Dorito bag that will break the bank at any moment. After all when you see so many 13b's fail from overboosting on stock wastegate with open exhaust, you think, hell a 3rd rotor sounds even worse!
Truth is, at the end of the day its just a f*cking engine. And a little keg with 3 triangles inside. Stick it in the car, make the necessary parts to hook all the junk you need up to it and drive it. If there were no swap kits out there and companies like Samberg and Hinson to make the precious LSX swap so easy, I'd put my money that it wouldn't be any easier than a 3 rotor. In fact you have to deal with a t-56, tranny mounts ,drive shaft, ETC And twin-turbocharging the LSX is insane. Just helped a RBKouki install headers on his LSX, those things BARELY fit. Good luck with turbos, oil lines intercoolering, fuel and tuning. Costs are no different
P.S.
For those that say the'd take a 13b on stock boost because that's reliable....this 20b makes 490RWHP @ 8.5PSI
Last edited by Monsterbox; 09-04-15 at 11:33 AM.
09-04-15, 11:32 AM
#138
All out Track Freak!
iTrader: (263)
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Charlottesville VA 22901
Posts: 10,672
Received 412 Likes
on
250 Posts
What exactly makes the 3-Rotor unreliable vs the LSx? A lot of people may laugh at this question, but in my experiences over the years, the only things that make the rotary unreliable are:
1. Build mistakes
2. Tuning mistakes
3. Old Parts that Fail
Comparatively, these 3 things are just as crucial to the v8.
The difference is that when something fails its usually not as catastrophic
However, this does not mean the Rotary by nature is any less reliable.
Lets consider we are going to build a 750hp track car, we could go two routes for example. Budget or $
1. An LS or a Rotary - Used Block, Unknown condition other than compression test
2. Dodgy wiring / used wiring harness
3. Ebay Fuel Pressure Regulator, Knock-off fuel pumps
4. ebay wastegate
5. home rebuild without proper clearances
You get the idea
The difference is when the fuel system / tuning fails on the LS, because of a crappy build, the motor is cheaper to replace / rebuild / repair vs a 10,000 3 rotor
However, all things being equal..
1. New fuel system
2. new ecu
3. properly built motor
4. proper oil pressure
5. proper wiring
6. proper failsafe measures
7. proper wastegate lines
^with all these in place, what by nature makes one more unreliable then the other?
Reflecting back on my experience with the 20b, there were no custom parts that wouldn't be applicable to the LS. Oil coolers, radiator, intercooler piping, subframe, wiring, ecu, fpr, fuel pumps, etc...everything is the same. In fact, there's less going on, No valve train/cams/rods/crank mods etc
In my opinion, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if its a 13b, 20b, 26b, 2jz, RB26, or a LSX, if you build it properly, with the correct supporting mods, these are all fully capable motors of serious horsepower potential, proven time and time again, which is reflected by the demand/prices
Now, aside from all of this, from a Financial Risk standpoint, the rotary is unarguably higher as the replacement cost is greater, however this can't immediately be associated as less reliable engine. If costs were the same, we likely wouldn't have this debate. But the same can be said about making massive power on a Porsche GT3.
1. Build mistakes
2. Tuning mistakes
3. Old Parts that Fail
Comparatively, these 3 things are just as crucial to the v8.
The difference is that when something fails its usually not as catastrophic
However, this does not mean the Rotary by nature is any less reliable.
Lets consider we are going to build a 750hp track car, we could go two routes for example. Budget or $
1. An LS or a Rotary - Used Block, Unknown condition other than compression test
2. Dodgy wiring / used wiring harness
3. Ebay Fuel Pressure Regulator, Knock-off fuel pumps
4. ebay wastegate
5. home rebuild without proper clearances
You get the idea
The difference is when the fuel system / tuning fails on the LS, because of a crappy build, the motor is cheaper to replace / rebuild / repair vs a 10,000 3 rotor
However, all things being equal..
1. New fuel system
2. new ecu
3. properly built motor
4. proper oil pressure
5. proper wiring
6. proper failsafe measures
7. proper wastegate lines
^with all these in place, what by nature makes one more unreliable then the other?
Reflecting back on my experience with the 20b, there were no custom parts that wouldn't be applicable to the LS. Oil coolers, radiator, intercooler piping, subframe, wiring, ecu, fpr, fuel pumps, etc...everything is the same. In fact, there's less going on, No valve train/cams/rods/crank mods etc
In my opinion, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if its a 13b, 20b, 26b, 2jz, RB26, or a LSX, if you build it properly, with the correct supporting mods, these are all fully capable motors of serious horsepower potential, proven time and time again, which is reflected by the demand/prices
Now, aside from all of this, from a Financial Risk standpoint, the rotary is unarguably higher as the replacement cost is greater, however this can't immediately be associated as less reliable engine. If costs were the same, we likely wouldn't have this debate. But the same can be said about making massive power on a Porsche GT3.
The 2 rotor engine is hard enough to support but the 3 rotor IMO for a guy like me or your average Joe is just not remotely practical.
We agree the block is great it's the support, the fabbed parts and the tuning that's lacking in the 3 rotor or really any rotor world.
Last edited by Fritz Flynn; 09-04-15 at 11:38 AM.
09-04-15, 11:42 AM
#139
They can't be compared because there is millions of 1 engine (the ls) with tons of support and 1000s of the other (3 rotor) with zip for real/reliable support and parts etc.... or parts are mostly one off inventions by people who haven't invented many to start with.
The 2 rotor engine is hard enough to support but the 3 rotor IMO for a guy like me or your average Joe is just not remotely practical.
We agree the block is great it's the support, the fabbed parts and the tuning that's lacking in the 3 rotor or really any rotor world.
The 2 rotor engine is hard enough to support but the 3 rotor IMO for a guy like me or your average Joe is just not remotely practical.
We agree the block is great it's the support, the fabbed parts and the tuning that's lacking in the 3 rotor or really any rotor world.
09-04-15, 12:01 PM
#141
All out Track Freak!
iTrader: (263)
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Charlottesville VA 22901
Posts: 10,672
Received 412 Likes
on
250 Posts
In fact I think the rotary block is more reliable
It's a shame it's so inefficient (poor mileage and emissions) or it would be the dominant engine in my mind no doubt.
09-04-15, 12:19 PM
#142
Spanking Pcars
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: DFW area
Posts: 1,084
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think a lot of people are put off by the 20b because on this forum swaps appear to take 10 years and cost $250,000. This leads readers to believe this engine is some kind of mystical unicorn Dorito bag that will break the bank at any moment. After all when you see so many 13b's fail from overboosting on stock wastegate with open exhaust, you think, hell a 3rd rotor sounds even worse!
They get their swap info here and if David Hayes Saga holds any truth, then it is a shiza boat of money and yes it takes many years.
Many members do not have the time, Fund$, patience, knowledge or a good shop support to make this happen.
So to the average Joe like me, having RP, Steve Kan, BDC and Don Marvel around the corner, having good mechanical skills/tools and above average knowledge, plus blessed with OK funds to make it happen, but going 20B is still a nightmare. I want to have fun driving and not have to depend on a long distance relation with a mechanic or going around the whole country looking for help or support, because of unlimited funds, undeniable patience and lack of local support.
Any swap that gone flawlessly is what we all hope for and understand some hiccups, but no one is ready for another David Saga.
Please to everyone, this is not a dog on attack on David, I admire his tenacity and would love to have his car.
09-04-15, 01:19 PM
#143
Don't really care. I used to get butthurt when the V8 guys would blast the rotary, but I chalk it up to ignorance on both parts and move on now.
I accept my car will never outperform performance vehicles 1/5 of a century newer. I get a kick out of maintaining it, modding it for better reliability/performance, and flogging it on the track. It's a perfect fit for me (except for head room w/helmet... damn sunroof) because it requires so much thought and attention. Playing with these cars taught me almost as much about engineering as my BS did.
Part of the draw for me was also the forum. The feeling that rotary enthusiasts are pioneers in a way, playing at the edges of what is known and often making new innovations along the way. It's nice to be a part of that.
I accept my car will never outperform performance vehicles 1/5 of a century newer. I get a kick out of maintaining it, modding it for better reliability/performance, and flogging it on the track. It's a perfect fit for me (except for head room w/helmet... damn sunroof) because it requires so much thought and attention. Playing with these cars taught me almost as much about engineering as my BS did.
Part of the draw for me was also the forum. The feeling that rotary enthusiasts are pioneers in a way, playing at the edges of what is known and often making new innovations along the way. It's nice to be a part of that.
09-04-15, 02:55 PM
#145
All out Track Freak!
iTrader: (263)
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Charlottesville VA 22901
Posts: 10,672
Received 412 Likes
on
250 Posts
Don't really care. I used to get butthurt when the V8 guys would blast the rotary, but I chalk it up to ignorance on both parts and move on now.
I accept my car will never outperform performance vehicles 1/5 of a century newer. I get a kick out of maintaining it, modding it for better reliability/performance, and flogging it on the track. It's a perfect fit for me (except for head room w/helmet... damn sunroof) because it requires so much thought and attention. Playing with these cars taught me almost as much about engineering as my BS did.
Part of the draw for me was also the forum. The feeling that rotary enthusiasts are pioneers in a way, playing at the edges of what is known and often making new innovations along the way. It's nice to be a part of that.
I accept my car will never outperform performance vehicles 1/5 of a century newer. I get a kick out of maintaining it, modding it for better reliability/performance, and flogging it on the track. It's a perfect fit for me (except for head room w/helmet... damn sunroof) because it requires so much thought and attention. Playing with these cars taught me almost as much about engineering as my BS did.
Part of the draw for me was also the forum. The feeling that rotary enthusiasts are pioneers in a way, playing at the edges of what is known and often making new innovations along the way. It's nice to be a part of that.
Also it's so cool too when this 20 plus year old car with it's 1.3 liter turbo engine takes down 7 liter engines in Z06s with far superior chassis/aero, wheels and tires etc.... etc.....
It's a BADASS little car with a BADASS little engine
Here's a modded C6 Z that didn't expect this little rotary to get him. The dude was picking on everyone all weekend
Last edited by Fritz Flynn; 09-04-15 at 03:16 PM.
