Let's talk lithium batteries
03-21-17, 11:40 AM
#1
RX-7 Bad Ass
Thread Starter
iTrader: (55)
Let's talk lithium batteries
Hey guys -
So, lithium batteries are really coming down in price and availalbility is getting more widespread. It's starting to look like it could be a reasonable alternative for a mini battery kit.
Big advantages of course is they are VERY light for the amount of power, very small, are more friendly with charging, and do better sitting for a while.
I've seen people talk about using this battery by Shorai -
4.8 pounds ain't too shabby
. Also $290 which is a reasonable price.
Anyone out there tried a lithium ion battery yet?
Dale
So, lithium batteries are really coming down in price and availalbility is getting more widespread. It's starting to look like it could be a reasonable alternative for a mini battery kit.
Big advantages of course is they are VERY light for the amount of power, very small, are more friendly with charging, and do better sitting for a while.
I've seen people talk about using this battery by Shorai -
4.8 pounds ain't too shabby
. Also $290 which is a reasonable price.Anyone out there tried a lithium ion battery yet?
Dale
03-21-17, 11:58 AM
#2
Biggest barrier for me would be needing to have a new battery box/mount welded up again. Unless it's the same size as a PC680
On the latter, I found that once you get it out of the engine bay, they last like three times longer. I also have a little pig tail I can plug into a battery tender, but honestly it's sat for a couple weeks without it, and been fine.
On the latter, I found that once you get it out of the engine bay, they last like three times longer. I also have a little pig tail I can plug into a battery tender, but honestly it's sat for a couple weeks without it, and been fine.
03-21-17, 12:10 PM
#4
Wow. Under 5lbs? I had no idea. Plus the battery you reference is 540CCA!? A Odyssey PC680 is like 170CCA and weight 15lbs.
I'm running two 18.5lb Optima batteries in the trunk shaving almost 30lbs for a couple hundred bucks is a nice proposition.
So what *IS* the downside?
I'm running two 18.5lb Optima batteries in the trunk shaving almost 30lbs for a couple hundred bucks is a nice proposition.
So what *IS* the downside?
03-21-17, 01:12 PM
#6
RX-7 Bad Ass
Thread Starter
iTrader: (55)
Monsterbox, which battery were you running?
That's interesting on the car off/accessories on draining it, I would think it would be better or something.
Also, I think there are specific lithium ion trickle chargers out there.
Dale
That's interesting on the car off/accessories on draining it, I would think it would be better or something.
Also, I think there are specific lithium ion trickle chargers out there.
Dale
03-21-17, 01:32 PM
#7
Pretty certain its the one you posted. It looked exactly the same, with the number 36. IRRC it was somewhere around a rated 600ca.
To be fair here though, the last car, in that pic, was using 2ga battery wire, via the relocation, to the factory fuse box. I've found this to be extremely bad for relocated batteries in voltage drop. The wiring was later upgraded to 00 gauge, running directly to the starter, while keeping the original 2 gauge wire power the fuse box. This considerably helped cranking RPM, but unfortunately was done on a larger Optima, after having removed the Shorai, so was never able to compare.
The Shorai wasn't bad but in my experience it still doesn't have as much capacity as a larger battery. It seemed very similar to the smaller Odyssey which I was running prior. Always as if there was only a limited amount of time to have the accessories on with car off
But, over time, I killed it a few times leaving lights on etc, and it would never recover to full charge again :/
Anyhow, its worth a shot but its main advantage is really just its weight. It is SUPER light. I was expecting it to be like a cell phone battery, where you can kill it over-and-over to zero, and will always pop back up quickly.
To be fair here though, the last car, in that pic, was using 2ga battery wire, via the relocation, to the factory fuse box. I've found this to be extremely bad for relocated batteries in voltage drop. The wiring was later upgraded to 00 gauge, running directly to the starter, while keeping the original 2 gauge wire power the fuse box. This considerably helped cranking RPM, but unfortunately was done on a larger Optima, after having removed the Shorai, so was never able to compare.
The Shorai wasn't bad but in my experience it still doesn't have as much capacity as a larger battery. It seemed very similar to the smaller Odyssey which I was running prior. Always as if there was only a limited amount of time to have the accessories on with car off
But, over time, I killed it a few times leaving lights on etc, and it would never recover to full charge again :/
Anyhow, its worth a shot but its main advantage is really just its weight. It is SUPER light. I was expecting it to be like a cell phone battery, where you can kill it over-and-over to zero, and will always pop back up quickly.
Last edited by Monsterbox; 03-21-17 at 01:37 PM.
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03-21-17, 01:47 PM
#11
no, Lithium and NiMh batteries shouldn't be constantly charged, that just ages them at a very fast rate. they should be charged and then cut off from additional charging otherwise you are just harming their capacity.
of course these idiots selling you the batteries won't comment on that, and if they are offering a 5 year warranty then their batteries are either extremely cheap to cover the massive warranties or they won't be around tomorrow to warranty them.
i've got my insight's NiMh pack torn apart for testing and those sticks also don't have enough capacity to be useful either and the same rule of overcharging applies.
they are supplementing the overcharge by using 15v batteries, but the constant charging is still going to smoke them in no time.
of course these idiots selling you the batteries won't comment on that, and if they are offering a 5 year warranty then their batteries are either extremely cheap to cover the massive warranties or they won't be around tomorrow to warranty them.
i've got my insight's NiMh pack torn apart for testing and those sticks also don't have enough capacity to be useful either and the same rule of overcharging applies.
they are supplementing the overcharge by using 15v batteries, but the constant charging is still going to smoke them in no time.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 03-21-17 at 01:53 PM.
03-21-17, 02:11 PM
#13
Although technically not recommended for auto applications by the manufacturer, the Shorai I am using on my Supra cranks the 2JZ without a problem. Overall cranking power is better than the PC680 it replaced, and the car can sit about 50% longer than it could with the PC680. Shorai sells a charger for these batteries, which is well worth it, as it keeps all 4 individual sub-cells balanced, and has shut-off voltages specific to the battery design targets.
Last edited by Aristo; 03-21-17 at 02:15 PM.
03-21-17, 02:25 PM
#14
RX-7 Bad Ass
Thread Starter
iTrader: (55)
Been doing some Googlin'.
First of the FT-86/BRZ/whatevah guys are running these, some are running the smaller 2.5 pound versions with no problems.
DIY: 5lb Shorai Battery Install - Scion FR-S Forum | Subaru BRZ Forum | Toyota 86 GT 86 Forum | AS1 Forum - FT86CLUB
From what I've read, these batteries do really well in cranking but as Monsterbox stated they don't do well with running a lot of stuff with the engine off. Their charge capacity isn't that high, which is how much juice is stored in the battery.
But, they seem OK with sitting for a month or so without the battery draining. Remember, this is originally a motorcycle battery, and bikes sit for a long time.
I think for many guys the 51r option is a great way to go. Bolt in, battery is cheap and available anywhere, but you save space and weight.
Dale
First of the FT-86/BRZ/whatevah guys are running these, some are running the smaller 2.5 pound versions with no problems.
DIY: 5lb Shorai Battery Install - Scion FR-S Forum | Subaru BRZ Forum | Toyota 86 GT 86 Forum | AS1 Forum - FT86CLUB
From what I've read, these batteries do really well in cranking but as Monsterbox stated they don't do well with running a lot of stuff with the engine off. Their charge capacity isn't that high, which is how much juice is stored in the battery.
But, they seem OK with sitting for a month or so without the battery draining. Remember, this is originally a motorcycle battery, and bikes sit for a long time.
I think for many guys the 51r option is a great way to go. Bolt in, battery is cheap and available anywhere, but you save space and weight.
Dale
03-21-17, 03:59 PM
#15
Last time i looked into this i contacted local Lithium battery supplier SSB for their largest motorcycle battery (pretty much same thing as the Shorai listed above, same price point too) for use in the car. He said flat out dont do it and that it wont be covered by warranty at all, pointed me to a couple of designated car batteries they do instead - $1000 and $2000. Cant remember the exact argument he was using but im pretty sure he said the bike battery could explode or something, went out of his way to discouraging me from using it. The two car batteries, as well as being many times more expensive were physically much larger too, getting towards about a pc680 in size, and im guessing it wasnt all hollow plastic like the bike batteries are.
03-21-17, 05:57 PM
#16
I put the largest Shorai in my FD.
I got sick of splashing all the acid out of my wet cell batteries racing and looked at what was out there for a dry cell.
Only raced with it 2013 season, but it is still in the car and starts it fine.
I did get the Shorai charger so I can keep it in storage mode and just finally started using that a couple months ago.
It always started fine before it was just in a storage unit without an outlet so I would take the battery out every year or so and top it up.
Once in 2013 I left the engine fans on for 10min or so with the engine off and it did drain the battery. Just jump started the car.
I think it is great for a race car (only downside is techs don't realize it weighs less than 5lbs so they want it strapped down with hardware that weighs more than it).
For a street car...
It would be nice to have more reserve capacity. Stacking several of these LiFePo batteries for more capacity would get expensive fast.
I got sick of splashing all the acid out of my wet cell batteries racing and looked at what was out there for a dry cell.
Only raced with it 2013 season, but it is still in the car and starts it fine.
I did get the Shorai charger so I can keep it in storage mode and just finally started using that a couple months ago.
It always started fine before it was just in a storage unit without an outlet so I would take the battery out every year or so and top it up.
Once in 2013 I left the engine fans on for 10min or so with the engine off and it did drain the battery. Just jump started the car.
I think it is great for a race car (only downside is techs don't realize it weighs less than 5lbs so they want it strapped down with hardware that weighs more than it).
For a street car...
It would be nice to have more reserve capacity. Stacking several of these LiFePo batteries for more capacity would get expensive fast.
03-21-17, 06:08 PM
#17
My $100 Shorai is LiFePo and doesn't explode. It starts my 1L bike and my 1.3L FD. I also have the Shorai maintainer as I do not daily my FD or Bike. My bike generator failed and the battery dropped too low. The maintainer recovered the battery but who knows how much life/potential I lost. I've had it for over 3 years now.
03-22-17, 02:12 AM
#19
I use a PC925, and in ~2014 I asked Shorai about it, and they said they had a battery with the CCA, however, they would not be able to accommodate the Ah.
Quote:
"We do not have the PC925 equiv. We have sufficient CCA in a similar battery (the 36) but not near the Ah. The PC925 has 26 Ah, we have 12 Actual Ah, although the LFX is rated the same CCA as a standard 36 Ah battery would have. Plus the PC925 can sustain a 5 second burst at 900CA."
They explained in a prior e-mail about how lithium batteries have 1/3 of the Ah of regular batteries, and lithium batteries always have an Ah equivalent. It has something to do with voltage drop due to the sudden discharge IIRC, and adding more capacity, i.e. additional batteries is what usually combats the voltage drop. I can forward or send you the rest of the e-mail if you like.
Before 2014, someone on the forum did use the Lithium batteries from Shorai I believe, I cannot find the messages, but I recall he eventually switched back to a regular battery when I asked through PMs.
I was also at SEMA the other year, and Braille was the only battery manufacturer that had Lithium batteries for automotive use, but if you look at the equivalent/price they are still up there. ~1000-2000.
I also have a friend who is in FormulaD, they were sponsored by I forgot the manufacturer now, but they preferred the old faithful, but a sponsor is a sponsor. At the end of the season, the battery ballooned/blew up in size, given it was in the engine bay, and they constantly had to jump it.
Lithium batteries don't like heat.
Now the interesting thing is I have friends who have used the Battery Tender brand of Lithirum batteries with great success, haven't followed up on longevity. Seen here on Speedhunters
http://speedhunters-wp-production.s3...y-1200x800.jpg
Full article
Trolling Around In A SOHC Integra - Speedhunters
Quote:
"We do not have the PC925 equiv. We have sufficient CCA in a similar battery (the 36) but not near the Ah. The PC925 has 26 Ah, we have 12 Actual Ah, although the LFX is rated the same CCA as a standard 36 Ah battery would have. Plus the PC925 can sustain a 5 second burst at 900CA."
They explained in a prior e-mail about how lithium batteries have 1/3 of the Ah of regular batteries, and lithium batteries always have an Ah equivalent. It has something to do with voltage drop due to the sudden discharge IIRC, and adding more capacity, i.e. additional batteries is what usually combats the voltage drop. I can forward or send you the rest of the e-mail if you like.
Before 2014, someone on the forum did use the Lithium batteries from Shorai I believe, I cannot find the messages, but I recall he eventually switched back to a regular battery when I asked through PMs.
I was also at SEMA the other year, and Braille was the only battery manufacturer that had Lithium batteries for automotive use, but if you look at the equivalent/price they are still up there. ~1000-2000.
I also have a friend who is in FormulaD, they were sponsored by I forgot the manufacturer now, but they preferred the old faithful, but a sponsor is a sponsor. At the end of the season, the battery ballooned/blew up in size, given it was in the engine bay, and they constantly had to jump it.
Lithium batteries don't like heat.
Now the interesting thing is I have friends who have used the Battery Tender brand of Lithirum batteries with great success, haven't followed up on longevity. Seen here on Speedhunters
http://speedhunters-wp-production.s3...y-1200x800.jpg
Full article
Trolling Around In A SOHC Integra - Speedhunters
03-22-17, 08:28 AM
#20
Rotary Enthusiast
So what about wiring 2 of these in parallel. (parallel means you keep the std 12 volt, but increase amp hours)
It shouldn't be hard to find another spot to stick the 2nd battery.
It shouldn't be hard to find another spot to stick the 2nd battery.
03-22-17, 10:48 AM
#21
Yes, parallel is definitely possible- it is just the costs start to get really high.
Another thing you could do is have two LiFePo together both with grounds and a quick disconnect positive or switch so when you do bonehead things and drain the 1st battery by accident you can switch to the full LiFePo.
My experience is they keep a charge well over extended periods and prefer to be kept charged.
If you know you need more capacity for radio or whatnot on a regular basis, skip the LiFePo. If you just want a little bit of idiot insurance for when you have a moment, maybe the above scheme would work out?
Another thing you could do is have two LiFePo together both with grounds and a quick disconnect positive or switch so when you do bonehead things and drain the 1st battery by accident you can switch to the full LiFePo.
My experience is they keep a charge well over extended periods and prefer to be kept charged.
If you know you need more capacity for radio or whatnot on a regular basis, skip the LiFePo. If you just want a little bit of idiot insurance for when you have a moment, maybe the above scheme would work out?
03-22-17, 10:56 AM
#22
That install made me LOL.
What I ended up doing was mount the Shorai flat on its side in the stock battery tray with the terminals up (didn't need more room at the time) and trimmed some battery hold down J-hooks way down and put wing nuts on them.
A friend pointed out relocating a 4lb battery using 10lbs of wire would be a silly thing to do- I agree with that!
03-22-17, 11:03 AM
#23
RX-7 Bad Ass
Thread Starter
iTrader: (55)
That's an interesting point on the heat, that makes a lot of sense. I think this is more logical for a relocated battery than an underhood battery.
Also seems that if you're going to run things off the battery with the engine off (radio, fans, etc.) this isn't for you. This is start the car and go.
BTW, I believe some of the very high end exotics are starting to use this battery technology.
Dale
Also seems that if you're going to run things off the battery with the engine off (radio, fans, etc.) this isn't for you. This is start the car and go.
BTW, I believe some of the very high end exotics are starting to use this battery technology.
Dale
03-22-17, 02:58 PM
#24
That install made me LOL.
What I ended up doing was mount the Shorai flat on its side in the stock battery tray with the terminals up (didn't need more room at the time) and trimmed some battery hold down J-hooks way down and put wing nuts on them.
A friend pointed out relocating a 4lb battery using 10lbs of wire would be a silly thing to do- I agree with that!
Well if that is the case, my PC925 relocated in the bin must be really oxymoronic. My regards to you and your friend.
03-22-17, 03:19 PM
#25
Well if that is the case, my PC925 relocated in the bin must be really oxymoronic. My regards to you and your friend.
Relocating a 26lb PC925 to the rear bin with 10lbs of wire has roughly 6 times the merit of relocating a 4lb LiFePo with 10lbs of wire in my eyes.
Relocating a 26lb PC925 to the rear bin with 10lbs of wire has roughly 6 times the merit of relocating a 4lb LiFePo with 10lbs of wire in my eyes.
Last edited by BLUE TII; 03-22-17 at 03:31 PM.