Confirmation of a BAD thing.
02-01-07, 12:32 AM
#1
Confirmation of a BAD thing.
Backstory:
Bought the car with a blown engine. Previous owner stated that it died while coasting to a stop sign in neutral. When they key was turned to the starting position, there was nothing. The starter would try, but couldn't turn the engine over at all. Previous owner suspected an apex seal was lodged in the exhaust port.
But anywho, I got the engine out a while ago and after finding a new motivation to get things torn apart to see what was still intact, I found this tonight:
Turbos removed:
Uh-Oh, this can't be good:
Close-Up of the scary part:
Lets see how much of that debris sticks to a magnet... All Of It!!!!
That is a piece of an apex seal ladies and gents. and all of that smaller debris is also metallic.
So all in all, every speck of that black stuff on the piece of paper is metallic. it all stuck to my magnet. and that larger piece of what is left of an apex seal. One edge of it is worn down to a sharp edge. This little guy was ready.
And looking through the maintenance records of the previous owner revealed that the oil had been changed every 5000 miles, pretty religiously, but still a long tim ein my opinion. Also, the OMP lines have been clear ever since I got the car, which makes me suspect that the apex seals had not been getting any extra lubrication for a while... unless they naturally drain out if the car is left sitting?
Bought the car with a blown engine. Previous owner stated that it died while coasting to a stop sign in neutral. When they key was turned to the starting position, there was nothing. The starter would try, but couldn't turn the engine over at all. Previous owner suspected an apex seal was lodged in the exhaust port.
But anywho, I got the engine out a while ago and after finding a new motivation to get things torn apart to see what was still intact, I found this tonight:
Turbos removed:
Uh-Oh, this can't be good:
Close-Up of the scary part:
Lets see how much of that debris sticks to a magnet... All Of It!!!!
That is a piece of an apex seal ladies and gents. and all of that smaller debris is also metallic.
So all in all, every speck of that black stuff on the piece of paper is metallic. it all stuck to my magnet. and that larger piece of what is left of an apex seal. One edge of it is worn down to a sharp edge. This little guy was ready.
And looking through the maintenance records of the previous owner revealed that the oil had been changed every 5000 miles, pretty religiously, but still a long tim ein my opinion. Also, the OMP lines have been clear ever since I got the car, which makes me suspect that the apex seals had not been getting any extra lubrication for a while... unless they naturally drain out if the car is left sitting?
02-01-07, 06:48 AM
#2
You can pretty much figure that the housing, rotor and turbos are toast. The sharp edge is the bottom end of the top 3 piece Mazda seal, the rounded edge is what runs against the rotor housing.
As far as the omp lines being clear, could be an issue or not. The motor pulls a vacuum on the lines, along with the pump pushing oil up into them. They can drain back down when the engine is off.
As far as the omp lines being clear, could be an issue or not. The motor pulls a vacuum on the lines, along with the pump pushing oil up into them. They can drain back down when the engine is off.
02-01-07, 08:10 AM
#3
Original Gangster/Rotary!
iTrader: (213)
Looks like you've got a stud broken off in that turbo manifold too.....they might still be good for a core if you decide to upgrade to BNRs, your rotating assy can be trashed and they can still be used b/c Bryan installs all new larger CHRAs after machining for fitment.
http://www.bnrturbos.com/3rdGen.htm
http://www.bnrturbos.com/3rdGen.htm
02-01-07, 12:16 PM
#4
Originally Posted by GoodfellaFD3S
Looks like you've got a stud broken off in that turbo manifold too.....they might still be good for a core if you decide to upgrade to BNRs, your rotating assy can be trashed and they can still be used b/c Bryan installs all new larger CHRAs after machining for fitment.
http://www.bnrturbos.com/3rdGen.htm
http://www.bnrturbos.com/3rdGen.htm
Good catch on the broken stud. PB Blaster didn't work so well. Broke 4 total. Sprayed, let it sit for a while, sprayed some more. sat overnight. sprayed some more. snap x4.
Why do the BNR's require non synthetic oil? I know it says due the carbon seals, but why?
02-01-07, 02:36 PM
#5
Ok, patience and PB Blaster helped me get the manifold off without another broken stud. But I have a couple comparison pictures for you gurus out there. The front rotor is self explanatory. the rear rotor exhaust port is light colored and inside looks BONE dry. Except for the carbon build up on the rotor itself. I could not get my camera inside to get a good picture of what I am talking about, but I figured there would be a little oil, or residue of some sort in the cambers.
What other items may be a culprit to the failure of this engine? OMP? Fuel Injectors? the diffusers were still intact. mileage and long oil change intervals?
Any ideas would be appreciated. I am trying to be overly cautious in installing a new engine. I would hate to install a malfunctioning part, only to lose the new engine.
What other items may be a culprit to the failure of this engine? OMP? Fuel Injectors? the diffusers were still intact. mileage and long oil change intervals?
Any ideas would be appreciated. I am trying to be overly cautious in installing a new engine. I would hate to install a malfunctioning part, only to lose the new engine.
02-01-07, 06:05 PM
#6
Original Gangster/Rotary!
iTrader: (213)
That first pic shows a disgusting amount of carbon build up, whoever owned the car definitely didn't redline it enough most likely.
The rear rotor tends to run leaner due to the uneven LIM, it appears to be the case here.
By the way, I've torn down many engines, and the one pictured is one of the filthiest I've ever seen. Yuck!
The rear rotor tends to run leaner due to the uneven LIM, it appears to be the case here.
By the way, I've torn down many engines, and the one pictured is one of the filthiest I've ever seen. Yuck!
Trending Topics
02-01-07, 07:13 PM
#9
Full Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: santa rosa, ca
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have a quick question... How much does something like this run to fix properly, and is this the most common way that 13b's blow or is it usually not this bad. Sorry for the newb question just trying to get some idea's of what Im in for
02-01-07, 08:40 PM
#10
Out of the game
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Reno NV
Posts: 637
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by GoodfellaFD3S
That first pic shows a disgusting amount of carbon build up,
The rear rotor tends to run leaner due to the uneven LIM, it appears to be the case here.
!
The rear rotor tends to run leaner due to the uneven LIM, it appears to be the case here.
!
That's interesting. Is that a common problem for engine failure? And is it more common for the rear to go out first?
02-01-07, 09:38 PM
#11
Originally Posted by ssteve
I have a quick question... How much does something like this run to fix properly, and is this the most common way that 13b's blow or is it usually not this bad. Sorry for the newb question just trying to get some idea's of what Im in for
And every 5000 miles!!!! OMG!!!! I change mine every 2000-2500 miles non-synthetic only.....
Good luck with the rebuild.
02-01-07, 09:48 PM
#12
Constant threat
Originally Posted by ssteve
I have a quick question... How much does something like this run to fix properly, and is this the most common way that 13b's blow or is it usually not this bad. Sorry for the newb question just trying to get some idea's of what Im in for
These cars....they are NOT for the faint of constitution....lol!
02-01-07, 10:09 PM
#13
Originally Posted by bajaman
These cars....they are NOT for the faint of constitution....lol!
I am not sure how big of a hurry you are in to rebuild but in prolly 6 months I will have a set of turbos with only about 5K miles on em that were off an automatic FD originally (manifold is in great shape).
02-01-07, 10:17 PM
#14
rotary sensei
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Monkman33
Backstory:
I guess in the later pic it did turn out to be a busted apex seal. Yes I know it would be impossible for a key to work it's way into the combustion chamber, but it does look like a key.
02-01-07, 10:24 PM
#17
rotary sensei
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by ssteve
So is this the most common thing that happens when they blew or is it usually better or worse?
02-02-07, 09:34 PM
#19
Clarification on the pictures. the carbon locked rotor is the front. the exhaust port that is whitish is the rear.
here is an attachment that show the maintenance records and when the downpipe was installed. it looks like it had a long life on the stock pre-cat.
Here are the records. there is overlap between each shot, but it will give you a really good idea as to the timeline of this car's life.
I have a feeling I am going to want to service/replace the injectors. Find a way to test the OMP... or run premix. I will start tearing down this engine in a while and posting pics in this thread once I get some spare time.
here is an attachment that show the maintenance records and when the downpipe was installed. it looks like it had a long life on the stock pre-cat.
Here are the records. there is overlap between each shot, but it will give you a really good idea as to the timeline of this car's life.
I have a feeling I am going to want to service/replace the injectors. Find a way to test the OMP... or run premix. I will start tearing down this engine in a while and posting pics in this thread once I get some spare time.
Last edited by Monkman33; 02-02-07 at 09:41 PM.
02-04-07, 01:50 AM
#23
rotary sensei
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by nocomply24
maybe it was a bunch of things like the 5k oil changes and the lack of redline(the carbon build up)??
02-04-07, 08:57 AM
#24
Original Gangster/Rotary!
iTrader: (213)
That spreadsheet is pretty cool. I wish like hell I had started one of those 8 years and 85,000 miles ago when I bought my FD. Of course, the totalled dollar amount would probably make me ill 
02-04-07, 03:59 PM
#25
What would cause the discoloration disparity between the two rotors? And that carbon build-up is very extreme compared to the other rotor. is this a large weakness of the stock induction/fueling system? I don't think the PFC can control fuel individually to each rotor. What would be the ideal way to balance this? I am already planning on a dual EGT sensor setup.