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Ok so the day of destruction was coming sooner or later. Had it on the dyno today. Meth was working, fuel was good, had my 10.5 ngk in. Car sounded solid and made some decent pulls. No tuning. Did 421@17psi.
Well Mr smarty decided 25psi was next. I've run that on the street many times with no issues. I heard a weird squeal and the car lost power. Kinda like I blew out the spark. Did the exact same thing when I broke a plug on the dyno last time. So I'm thinking its a ignition issue. Stock coils, hks twin power and 10.5 plugs.
Well it took a city block of electricity to get the car started again but we did. Idles at 1500 now, vacuum gauge is bouncing. Nice. I have the als seals in there so I'm hoping I lost a side seal.
So I'm gonna tear into this motor very soon. But also wanted to know what I need for an ignition upgrade and what special should I do to this new motor.
"Break a plug" is when ur motor goes poo and u pull the plugs to check them and the electrode in the middle of one plug is rattling around, crazy thing is the tip of the plug kept it from coming out and going into the motor. And yes I heard a squeal. Wtf is that?
Gonna tear into the motor soon. Rotorsports Racing does all my dirty work, so I will discuss the carnage with bryan tomorrow.
forget the methanol injection and run either 50/50 water/meth or straight water. any fuel through a garden sprinkler is going to give you issues sooner or later and water has better knock suppression than methanol does.
hopefully it was just something minor like the MAP hose popping off.
__________________
3-4 week booking delay for current work rotaryevolution.net
engine overhauls all shapes and sizes, stock to extreme shipped globally
Goopy Performance west coast distributor- $330 13B/12A apex seal sets shipped within US
'86-02 13B coolant seal savers/HP coolant seal sets $165 shipped within US
formerly Karack
I run the boost juice stuff. I think its 51/49 maybe. I've been in the game for a minute, and this is classic blown up motor 101. Lol. If I knew I could start and finish a 3 rotor setup by deals gap rally ...... I would work that out somehow.
I run the boost juice stuff. I think its 51/49 maybe. I've been in the game for a minute, and this is classic blown up motor 101. Lol. If I knew I could start and finish a 3 rotor setup by deals gap rally ...... I would work that out somehow.
yeah boost juice is 51% water and 49% methanol and what i typically run but try to avoid getting too close to the dreaded 25psi unless adding more water to the mix. always try and tell my customers to be fat with the water but not overly fat since it is tuned with the methanol as a fuel as well.
upgrade to 3mm if you're going to be beating on it that badly.
tuning might not be a bad idea either.. also hope you are running a 3 bar sensor versus just running it ragged.
__________________
3-4 week booking delay for current work rotaryevolution.net
engine overhauls all shapes and sizes, stock to extreme shipped globally
Goopy Performance west coast distributor- $330 13B/12A apex seal sets shipped within US
'86-02 13B coolant seal savers/HP coolant seal sets $165 shipped within US
formerly Karack
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 01-17-12 at 01:26 PM.
Can't figure out what exactly happened. I do know it was mostly tuning. This time on the dyno we did back to back pulls with Meth on and off. Car did 421@17psi no Meth, and 412@17 with Meth. I'm running two 1.0 nozzles and using a aquamist hsf3.
Untuned it did 540@27.1psi. Same deal, no tuning, just boost. Call me crazy. Afr's stayed in the 10's. I've been running 25psi on the street for about 2 years now running straight 100 octane. I just switched to 93 and Meth. Shouldve tuned for the change.
Exploring my options now.
I was also beating a dead horse. Lol. Drove the car all day today and was boosting it. I'm really motor looking to rebuild this motor. Want to find a core and build that or see who has a ready made setup. Thinking of a stud kit, als seals and maybe balancing.
Once its done one of u TUNERS will get all my money. Lol.
well yes, untuned can mean anything so it doesn't really tell anything aside from you had a somewhat ok basemap for your setup for the 2 years you drove it. also consider that the injectors will eventually become dirty and not flow optimally, big horsepower rotaries especially should have the injectors serviced every other year.
__________________
3-4 week booking delay for current work rotaryevolution.net
engine overhauls all shapes and sizes, stock to extreme shipped globally
Goopy Performance west coast distributor- $330 13B/12A apex seal sets shipped within US
'86-02 13B coolant seal savers/HP coolant seal sets $165 shipped within US
formerly Karack
doubt it was timing related or octane related with the AI, sounds like a chipped seal which is almost always caused by a lean condition overheating the tip of the apex seal and blowing it out with a nice sharp detonation cycle. sure he said it was in the 10's but a lean spike can happen before your readout box can even send the signal to your eyes.
i guess even ALS aren't immune to the same failures but i would like to see if that is what happened. seen the same with RA super seals but yet with Goopy racing seals.
could be the engine twisted but managed to not break an iron, just enough to pinch a seal into the rotor groove, this is tricky as the engine would have to twist just a little to cause rotor to housing contact without breaking anything, noted by 5 quarts of oil ejected from the engine in less than a minute. twisting is usually attributed to too far of advanced timing, sometimes just naturally in big horsepower builds without pinning or studs.
__________________
3-4 week booking delay for current work rotaryevolution.net
engine overhauls all shapes and sizes, stock to extreme shipped globally
Goopy Performance west coast distributor- $330 13B/12A apex seal sets shipped within US
'86-02 13B coolant seal savers/HP coolant seal sets $165 shipped within US
formerly Karack
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 01-17-12 at 05:07 PM.
If his motor had stock/Atkins seals it would have been blown 2 years ago
Can't fix stupid lol
__________________ ALS and Goopy Apex Seal Distributor
1994 Black Touring. 52000 miles, New Motor and New paint, burnout rear, $17500
1993 Red Touring, 68000 miles, New Motor and New paint, $15500
1993 Silver on Red, 60000 miles, New Motor and New paint, PENDING
I do have a bank that finances my cars.
Sorry to hear it. I am getting ready to be tuned next week. I have the aquamist 2d kit and was gonna push it a bit to 20 psi , but probably will just shoot for 17 psi and stay safe on 93. Dont need to pop anything!What injector set-up you running?
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1993 base silverstone metallic, 99 spec.. IRP 2011 Carlisi memorial stage 3+ port 13b. A-spec T4 35r . Aquamist 2D injection. 455 rwhp @ 18psi. dynojet.
I'm running 850/1600 old style Bosch. Dual 044 Bosch pumps -6 lines all the way. That last video shows me having the issue. The green flash on the dyno means its under 10Afrs and when it flashes red just means its back in the 11's. I'm thinking the car wasn't tuned for the boost and the meth didn't do anything to help because it goes off duty cycle of the injectors. So if the injectors hit a brick wall, so did the meth. If it was boost related it wild have maybe lived to see another day.
So before anyone starts pointing fingers and calling names i just want to say this was all my fault.. My car has a "tune" on it.. A very good tune.. Problem is.... it stopped right under 20psi. Never had it tuned higher. I was the dummy that turned the boost up to levels way beyond that of the parameters the tuner had in place..
IN MY MIND I THOUGHT THAT AS LONG AS MY AFR'S WERE GOOD I COULD TURN THE BOOST UP..
My mind was wrong.. lol. Not at all disappointed. I enjoyed every last hour of this car. I is a absolute beast. Im kinda just sharing my story and didnt want this to be a debate of which seals are better or who did a bad job tuning it... etc.. But i do thank you guys for looking and love when u chime in on what i need to do to prevent this from happening again..
Hate to see it let go, I know you put it through hell and it held up a long time.
With that said, I would say you had to be running out of fuel at 27 psi on a Gt4202 turbo running 850/1600s.
Once again I hate to see it happen but am excited to see pics of the tear down. Im guessing side or corner seal, or possibly warped apex seals. I would be shocked if a piece of the apex seal chipped, but Ive been wrong before.
25psi on a 74mm turbo on pump/meth without a tune for those specs is asking a lot. Please keep us posted and post pics.
Roughly how many miles were on the engine?
Also, were you running factory fuel diffusers? Know of atleast 3 cases where they have broken and went through the block. All 3 of these engines were built within 4-6 months of one another using new diffusers(1 by me, the other 2 were by other builders) and it makes me think maybe Mazda had a quality issue with the primary diffusers.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C. Ludwig
I'm sorry, but I must admit that I derive a small amount of sadistic joy in seeing you trying to reinvent the wheel.
.
Hate to see it let go, I know you put it through hell and it held up a long time.
With that said, I would say you had to be running out of fuel at 27 psi on a Gt4202 turbo running 850/1600s.
Once again I hate to see it happen but am excited to see pics of the tear down. Im guessing side or corner seal, or possibly warped apex seals. I would be shocked if a piece of the apex seal chipped, but Ive been wrong before.
25psi on a 74mm turbo on pump/meth without a tune for those specs is asking a lot. Please keep us posted and post pics.
Roughly how many miles were on the engine?
Also, were you running factory fuel diffusers? Know of atleast 3 cases where they have broken and went through the block. All 3 of these engines were built within 4-6 months of one another using new diffusers(1 by me, the other 2 were by other builders) and it makes me think maybe Mazda had a quality issue with the primary diffusers.
David,
I don't think the diffusers are anything to worry about if they go through the engine... I have seen over a dozen engines with them broken and never had any issues. That little piece of plastic will be melted into carbon upon its first combustion cycle (1000+psi/2000*. I know that there are some "old" guy(s) on here that blame their blown up engines on them but sorry, not a chance.
I will definitely keep pics and info coming. Once it gets torn down I will take pics and post everything so we can see what happened.
I had about 18k hard miles on that motor. We really will see the seals strength when it's opened up. I have friends that can vouch for the abuse. I believe that if it's built for 600hp it better do that whenever I want. I don't care if it's hot, cold, etc. smart huh. I've put a decent amount of money in my car and trying to beat it out of it. Lol. And I don't think I had the diffusers in there. Could be wrong tho.
So before anyone starts pointing fingers and calling names i just want to say this was all my fault.. My car has a "tune" on it.. A very good tune.. Problem is.... it stopped right under 20psi. Never had it tuned higher. I was the dummy that turned the boost up to levels way beyond that of the parameters the tuner had in place..
IN MY MIND I THOUGHT THAT AS LONG AS MY AFR'S WERE GOOD I COULD TURN THE BOOST UP..
My mind was wrong.. lol. Not at all disappointed. I enjoyed every last hour of this car. I is a absolute beast. Im kinda just sharing my story and didnt want this to be a debate of which seals are better or who did a bad job tuning it... etc.. But i do thank you guys for looking and love when u chime in on what i need to do to prevent this from happening again..
my opinion: don't push beyond what the tuner has tuned the car to. i usually push slightly over where the car is going to be set to to be safe, but you went 5 psi over and well into territory where pump gas will kill motors even with safeguards in place.
but you already knew that, i'm guessing that the word of how indestructable the ALS seals were gave you too much faith.
like if i build an engine for durability of high horsepower, that doesn't mean it is indestructable to just crank the boost up to whatever. also not saying i built this engine or tuned it, for those reading. my customers usually know better and i am first to tell them they were being ignorant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla RE
David,
I don't think the diffusers are anything to worry about if they go through the engine... I have seen over a dozen engines with them broken and never had any issues. That little piece of plastic will be melted into carbon upon its first combustion cycle (1000+psi/2000*. I know that there are some "old" guy(s) on here that blame their blown up engines on them but sorry, not a chance.
-J
i could envision them taking out a side seal but nothing else. the side seal is the first thing they contact on the way in and the side seals are still brittle cast iron with some protrusion. for apex seals, i would have to hope that a tiny piece of plastic wouldn't harm them when they can hold thousands of psi of dynamic compression.
but i have been wrong before, just about anything is explosive when hitting something at hundreds to thousands of miles per hour.
__________________
3-4 week booking delay for current work rotaryevolution.net
engine overhauls all shapes and sizes, stock to extreme shipped globally
Goopy Performance west coast distributor- $330 13B/12A apex seal sets shipped within US
'86-02 13B coolant seal savers/HP coolant seal sets $165 shipped within US
formerly Karack
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 01-18-12 at 10:15 AM.
I have an engine that had fuel diffusers let go inside...housings are chipped up
__________________ ALS and Goopy Apex Seal Distributor
1994 Black Touring. 52000 miles, New Motor and New paint, burnout rear, $17500
1993 Red Touring, 68000 miles, New Motor and New paint, $15500
1993 Silver on Red, 60000 miles, New Motor and New paint, PENDING
I do have a bank that finances my cars.
This has nothing to do with why the engine popped, sorry. Dont know if you know much about the aquamist, but did you ever bench test the system when you installed it? Did you ever test the purple wire to see how much voltage the injectors were seeing? 0-5 volts being 0-%100. Just asking cause I am making sure I have covered all angles and tests before I get tuned. Thanks
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1993 base silverstone metallic, 99 spec.. IRP 2011 Carlisi memorial stage 3+ port 13b. A-spec T4 35r . Aquamist 2D injection. 455 rwhp @ 18psi. dynojet.
Blew it up real good. :-) where to go from here.
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