How to value your FD
03-09-17, 09:32 AM
#1
All out Track Freak!
Thread Starter
iTrader: (263)
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Charlottesville VA 22901
Posts: 10,672
Received 416 Likes
on
252 Posts
How to value your FD
I know we've all talked endlessly about the value of these cars but a practical perspective is ripe or timely because the majority of the high priced FDs (prices north of 25k) I see for sale are not selling.
I've bought and sold hundreds of these cars so it's really easy for me to wax on and on about it.
The biggest reason I see for the prices hitting a wall is the availability of good cars priced 20k and below. When I say good I just mean they are straight, no rust, decent interior etc...
Follow that up with the cost of refurbishing the above car and this is where the wall is created.
Now add in the fact that most irons in these cars are 25 plus years old (most 93s built in 92) and have seen better days and they will eventually fail because of rust etc....or in other words the engine will need to be rebuilt on even the lowest mileage FD unless the maintenance was stellar. This usually isn't the case. Most low mileage FDs just sit in someones storage facility which is a great way to create internal engine rust.
So the elephant in the room is obvious to me. Why would I spend 35k for an FD with 20k miles that's mint when I can still buy a good one for 17? When the price was 25k it made sense to get the expensive FD (low mileage FD) but 17k goes a long way and rust never sleeps so the older these cars get the less reliable the original engine will be.
Example below of a decent FD I'd buy long before buying a 30k plus priced FD. The one below may already be sold or will sell soon where as all the ones listed for 30k plus will sit on autotrader for years (until the market catches up to the price) unless the sellers wake up or decide to take that cough cough low ball offer.
Cars for Sale: Used 1994 Mazda RX-7 Turbo for sale in Gainesville, GA 30501: Hatchback Details - 424192926 - Autotrader
Lets talk money and what that extra 17k you have in the bank will buy you. With some cars like the 993 911 for example the 17k will only rebuild your engine, BUT with the FD you get significantly more.
Engine 5k (NEW ENGINE)
Paint 7k (above car doesn't need paint)
Misc interior parts 2k (above car doesn't need interior work)
Used low mileage JDM trans 750 to 1k (every FD with 50k plus miles could use some trans work)
Labor to put said parts in 2k
So once the engine blows on the fairly priced FD you purchased you go through everything in the engine and you'll be out 7500 max BUT your engine should be solid for another 50k miles or more.
Over the winter you have it painted and put in some new weather stripping etc... 7k
Once the trans dies you either rebuild or replace 1500
etc...etc...
And it's not a matter of if on the original engine but when. So add 5k to your 35k total and it's starts to become pretty damn clear the FD isn't a good value at 30 or event 29k if you can still find them in good shape for 17k or anywhere below 20.
Anyway that's why you can't sell your FD for 30k if it has more than 30k miles on it. If someone decides to buy it well good for you (there is an *** for every seat), but if you want it to sell (and not waste money on taxes, storage fees, ins and or risk damage/mechanical loss), you may want to reconsider your price at this time.
There are clearly lots of FDs listed for 30k by owners who don't care if they sell and I am also sometimes in that camp so I understand the reason to keep it versus sell for anything less but if that's true then your car really isn't for sale, you are simply testing the market and your test failed LOL.
I've bought and sold hundreds of these cars so it's really easy for me to wax on and on about it.
The biggest reason I see for the prices hitting a wall is the availability of good cars priced 20k and below. When I say good I just mean they are straight, no rust, decent interior etc...
Follow that up with the cost of refurbishing the above car and this is where the wall is created.
Now add in the fact that most irons in these cars are 25 plus years old (most 93s built in 92) and have seen better days and they will eventually fail because of rust etc....or in other words the engine will need to be rebuilt on even the lowest mileage FD unless the maintenance was stellar. This usually isn't the case. Most low mileage FDs just sit in someones storage facility which is a great way to create internal engine rust.
So the elephant in the room is obvious to me. Why would I spend 35k for an FD with 20k miles that's mint when I can still buy a good one for 17? When the price was 25k it made sense to get the expensive FD (low mileage FD) but 17k goes a long way and rust never sleeps so the older these cars get the less reliable the original engine will be.
Example below of a decent FD I'd buy long before buying a 30k plus priced FD. The one below may already be sold or will sell soon where as all the ones listed for 30k plus will sit on autotrader for years (until the market catches up to the price) unless the sellers wake up or decide to take that cough cough low ball offer.
Cars for Sale: Used 1994 Mazda RX-7 Turbo for sale in Gainesville, GA 30501: Hatchback Details - 424192926 - Autotrader
Lets talk money and what that extra 17k you have in the bank will buy you. With some cars like the 993 911 for example the 17k will only rebuild your engine, BUT with the FD you get significantly more.
Engine 5k (NEW ENGINE)
Paint 7k (above car doesn't need paint)
Misc interior parts 2k (above car doesn't need interior work)
Used low mileage JDM trans 750 to 1k (every FD with 50k plus miles could use some trans work)
Labor to put said parts in 2k
So once the engine blows on the fairly priced FD you purchased you go through everything in the engine and you'll be out 7500 max BUT your engine should be solid for another 50k miles or more.
Over the winter you have it painted and put in some new weather stripping etc... 7k
Once the trans dies you either rebuild or replace 1500
etc...etc...
And it's not a matter of if on the original engine but when. So add 5k to your 35k total and it's starts to become pretty damn clear the FD isn't a good value at 30 or event 29k if you can still find them in good shape for 17k or anywhere below 20.
Anyway that's why you can't sell your FD for 30k if it has more than 30k miles on it. If someone decides to buy it well good for you (there is an *** for every seat), but if you want it to sell (and not waste money on taxes, storage fees, ins and or risk damage/mechanical loss), you may want to reconsider your price at this time.
There are clearly lots of FDs listed for 30k by owners who don't care if they sell and I am also sometimes in that camp so I understand the reason to keep it versus sell for anything less but if that's true then your car really isn't for sale, you are simply testing the market and your test failed LOL.
Last edited by Fritz Flynn; 03-09-17 at 09:40 AM.
The following 9 users liked this post by Fritz Flynn:
blk&tanfd (07-10-20),
Brynia (08-11-19),
drewr4411 (11-12-18),
edge4classics (08-31-22),
H3ll0 (05-10-18),
and 4 others liked this post.
Popular Reply
01-17-22, 02:22 PM
That FEED v5 is one of the very few FD's around worth $50k+ usd imo. Unless your stock vehicle is a true 'garage queen' being a single owner, always garaged, never driven in the rain, original everything in near mint condition with all service documents and dealer paperwork, etc. How people get all worked up for anything else is besides me?
This is pure IRRATIONAL EXHUBERANCE, plain and simple.
This is pure IRRATIONAL EXHUBERANCE, plain and simple.
As for me, I drove my first FD in 1997 and immediately I knew it was special. I've said this many times but while car shopping, I drove contemporary counterparts (twin turbo MKIV, twin turbo Z32, M3 E36, C5 z06, to name a few) and none compared to how the 7 felt on the road. Around the 2006 time frame, I took a 2004 997 turbo (470hp/450ft-lbs) that was being sold for $165K by a local dealer. My friend knew them so they let us take it out. I drove that car pretty hard, around corners, redlining it, hard stops ect. Even hit 130mph at one point just to see how it planted itself at speed.
The verdict: From a driving perspective, I felt that it was barely better than my 12 year old 330RWHP FD with a sloppy tired suspension. So naturally I thought "That's all you get for $165K? sheesh..." Then I realized that I was looking at it all wrong. It's not that the Porsche was that bad, it was that the RX-7 is that good. So I decided to do right by my car and tighten up the suspension (among other things lol).
03-09-17, 10:05 AM
#3
I would be interested in some opinions on this also.
I have a feeling that unless you build something with a really rare body kit or a 20B it will be hard.
The reason I say that is because most of us who want a modified car have a pretty specific list of parts we want so unless you find a buyer who wants exactly what you built it will be difficult to convey the value.
I feel that although awesome, a modified FD RX7 is one of the few things where the whole is worth less than the sum of the parts....even though the build performs better and is cheaper than an equivalent performing sports car from a factory.
Last full modified build I did cost me about $60k NZD.....I managed to sell it for $25,500 NZD......
Tom
03-09-17, 10:21 AM
#4
All out Track Freak!
Thread Starter
iTrader: (263)
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Charlottesville VA 22901
Posts: 10,672
Received 416 Likes
on
252 Posts
Value of it in stock form plus 1/2 the price of the mods if they are the latest and greatest. If they are 10 years old or cheap ebay parts; stock value and subtract those parts LOL.
If you know of a modded FD for sale list it and we can hash out the value
The following users liked this post:
H3ll0 (05-10-18)
The following 3 users liked this post by FourtyOunce:
03-09-17, 11:29 AM
#6
It's a case of supply and demand. While supply is dwindling, there's not the demand at $30k. While they are generally well regarded, appreciation does not translate to ownership. Most consider them complicated and unreliable. And you can't just take them to the local garage to get fixed. Throw on top of that what else you can get for $30k and there's your problem.
Of course there are a few people that understand and are willing to pay for one of the best, if not the best, sports cars ever made.
Of course there are a few people that understand and are willing to pay for one of the best, if not the best, sports cars ever made.
The following users liked this post:
Jeff5808 (04-02-19)
03-09-17, 11:43 AM
#7
As a buyer for me in regards to modified vehicles....
If you are selling your modified vehicle, the largest concern for me as the buyer would be the parts itself as well as who did the installation. If you are meticulous and kept all your receipts for all the mods (of course time stamped) and a corresponding list of where they were installed (reputable shops), i myself would be willing to pay the extra money for a modified vehicle IF it goes with the vision of why i'm buying the car. What are my intentions for the vehicle? With FD's, we have specific buyers, those who track their car, those who build and tinker and those who collect cars. If you imagine as a collector, you would want the best of the best, as a builder or tinkerer, you would get an fd that is decent to good condition and then for a track car, you're more likely to get from worst condition to decent condition. I would consider this a hard topic to discuss because to each their own on how they value the car as condition is definitely a factor but sweat blood and tears also play a role on how you would value your car.
If you are selling your modified vehicle, the largest concern for me as the buyer would be the parts itself as well as who did the installation. If you are meticulous and kept all your receipts for all the mods (of course time stamped) and a corresponding list of where they were installed (reputable shops), i myself would be willing to pay the extra money for a modified vehicle IF it goes with the vision of why i'm buying the car. What are my intentions for the vehicle? With FD's, we have specific buyers, those who track their car, those who build and tinker and those who collect cars. If you imagine as a collector, you would want the best of the best, as a builder or tinkerer, you would get an fd that is decent to good condition and then for a track car, you're more likely to get from worst condition to decent condition. I would consider this a hard topic to discuss because to each their own on how they value the car as condition is definitely a factor but sweat blood and tears also play a role on how you would value your car.
Trending Topics
03-09-17, 11:52 AM
#8
I've been in the market for a stock FD that I can keep basically stock and just drive. There was a 20k mile FD for sale in Ohio at a dealership on consignment. They asked for $37k. It was a red touring 93. Here's the autotrader link:
https://tinyurl.com/hpywnto
I called the dealership and talked to the sales manager and offered him 25 grand. He told me in a polite way (not literally) to **** off. He said "it's a manual and really low mileage, this is where it should be priced" and I told him that there is nothing special about a red touring 93 with manual trans.
I ended up buying a 50k mile one off bring a trailer and will pick it up next week for $20,500 1995 Mazda RX-7 | Bring a Trailer
I can't see myself putting more than 3 to 5 thousand miles a year on it. I figure I'll get some maintenance done on it and hopefully sell it for what I paid in a couple years. I think the motor will hold up for a while longer. My friend got 100k out of his 94 original engine, stock except a downpipe.
https://tinyurl.com/hpywnto
I called the dealership and talked to the sales manager and offered him 25 grand. He told me in a polite way (not literally) to **** off. He said "it's a manual and really low mileage, this is where it should be priced" and I told him that there is nothing special about a red touring 93 with manual trans.
I ended up buying a 50k mile one off bring a trailer and will pick it up next week for $20,500 1995 Mazda RX-7 | Bring a Trailer
I can't see myself putting more than 3 to 5 thousand miles a year on it. I figure I'll get some maintenance done on it and hopefully sell it for what I paid in a couple years. I think the motor will hold up for a while longer. My friend got 100k out of his 94 original engine, stock except a downpipe.
Last edited by arghx; 03-09-17 at 11:55 AM.
03-09-17, 01:05 PM
#9
IMHO it comes down to who wants one and has cash. I bought my first FD in Okinawa for 3k, so it was no big deal. The one I just bought I paid 14 for, and most people thought I was crazy for paying fourteen for a 93. So you have to imagine how many people both want one, and have cash given that a regular auto loan is probably out the window. I happen to have the cash at the time of my purchase which was more of a fluke than anything. I can imagine someone with thirty grand cash is probably looking for a z06 or a nice used Porsche.
03-09-17, 01:59 PM
#10
Silver Linings
Thanks you Fritz for your detailed analysis. It seems like good news for someone who may be saving up to own an FD.
The $2000 mentioned for refurbishing the interior is likely well spent. Eliminating tatty trim and squeaks and rattles, certainly improves the sense of value. Whereas, one naggy rattle has very much the opposite effect.
The $2000 mentioned for refurbishing the interior is likely well spent. Eliminating tatty trim and squeaks and rattles, certainly improves the sense of value. Whereas, one naggy rattle has very much the opposite effect.
Last edited by Redbul; 03-09-17 at 02:07 PM.
03-09-17, 02:04 PM
#11
All out Track Freak!
Thread Starter
iTrader: (263)
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Charlottesville VA 22901
Posts: 10,672
Received 416 Likes
on
252 Posts
It's a case of supply and demand. While supply is dwindling, there's not the demand at $30k. While they are generally well regarded, appreciation does not translate to ownership. Most consider them complicated and unreliable. And you can't just take them to the local garage to get fixed. Throw on top of that what else you can get for $30k and there's your problem.
Of course there are a few people that understand and are willing to pay for one of the best, if not the best, sports cars ever made.
Of course there are a few people that understand and are willing to pay for one of the best, if not the best, sports cars ever made.
I've been in the market for a stock FD that I can keep basically stock and just drive. There was a 20k mile FD for sale in Ohio at a dealership on consignment. They asked for $37k. It was a red touring 93. Here's the autotrader link:
https://tinyurl.com/hpywnto
I called the dealership and talked to the sales manager and offered him 25 grand. He told me in a polite way (not literally) to **** off. He said "it's a manual and really low mileage, this is where it should be priced" and I told him that there is nothing special about a red touring 93 with manual trans.
I ended up buying a 50k mile one off bring a trailer and will pick it up next week for $20,500 1995 Mazda RX-7 | Bring a Trailer
I can't see myself putting more than 3 to 5 thousand miles a year on it. I figure I'll get some maintenance done on it and hopefully sell it for what I paid in a couple years. I think the motor will hold up for a while longer. My friend got 100k out of his 94 original engine, stock except a downpipe.
https://tinyurl.com/hpywnto
I called the dealership and talked to the sales manager and offered him 25 grand. He told me in a polite way (not literally) to **** off. He said "it's a manual and really low mileage, this is where it should be priced" and I told him that there is nothing special about a red touring 93 with manual trans.
I ended up buying a 50k mile one off bring a trailer and will pick it up next week for $20,500 1995 Mazda RX-7 | Bring a Trailer
I can't see myself putting more than 3 to 5 thousand miles a year on it. I figure I'll get some maintenance done on it and hopefully sell it for what I paid in a couple years. I think the motor will hold up for a while longer. My friend got 100k out of his 94 original engine, stock except a downpipe.
03-09-17, 02:24 PM
#12
What if someone did get a 10k paint job that included replacing every single seal of the car with new oem and new 99 spec facelift rebar under tray and turn lights, rebuilt a reliable modified engine with quality parts by a reputable shop, replace all the bushings and suspension pieces for top name brand parts, did install a Vmount, dual oil coolers, and upgraded the twin turbos for bnrs that had a tune and a great exhaust. Along with replacing the interior plastics with new oem and saved every single reciept to prove all the way from the first owner? But the only thing holding back the car was the mileage? What then?
People put alot of time, effort, and money into these cars and they should have a higher value or start increasing in value because getting work like this done isn't cheap. That's what people need to realize. Specialized shops are costly because everyone else are not trained to diagnose, reapir, and replace the parts in an rx7.
People put alot of time, effort, and money into these cars and they should have a higher value or start increasing in value because getting work like this done isn't cheap. That's what people need to realize. Specialized shops are costly because everyone else are not trained to diagnose, reapir, and replace the parts in an rx7.
Last edited by Rocketeerbandit; 03-09-17 at 02:33 PM.
03-09-17, 03:10 PM
#14
a friend recently thought about purchasing the mint ssm r2 listed on this forum..
but after seeing whats on the market for the price range.. he ended up with a well sorted low mileage twin turbo 370z..
high horsepower without having to sacrifice features and amenities... like not smellin like exhaust fumes wherever u go...
03-09-17, 03:18 PM
#15
Rocketeerbandit
What if someone did get a 10k paint job that included replacing every single seal of the car with new oem and...
If you are trying to sell your FD to someone who wants a low mile original FD even a $10k paint job is going to lower the value compared to original paint in decent condition.
If you trying to sell your FD to someone that just wants an FD to drive and mod- well they are probably looking to do what you did to your FD- not buy your FD.
The FD as you describe actually sounds like a pretty typical high mileage FD to me. Its been driven and so hit and repainted some time in the last 24 years and the previous owner has done a lot of work to it to keep it running.
If you find a high mileage FD that is all stock- then you are in luck. There won't be a bunch of dreaded previous owner work and you can do exactly what you want to it.
If you have what you think is a badass FD to sell you need to become a salesman and build some hype on it by making it known in the RX-7 community- then maybe someone who just wants a badass FD to drive without any work will buy it at a premium because the community consensus is that it is a badass FD.
03-09-17, 03:31 PM
#16
All out Track Freak!
Thread Starter
iTrader: (263)
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Charlottesville VA 22901
Posts: 10,672
Received 416 Likes
on
252 Posts
What if someone did get a 10k paint job that included replacing every single seal of the car with new oem and new 99 spec facelift rebar under tray and turn lights, rebuilt a reliable modified engine with quality parts by a reputable shop, replace all the bushings and suspension pieces for top name brand parts, did install a Vmount, dual oil coolers, and upgraded the twin turbos for bnrs that had a tune and a great exhaust. Along with replacing the interior plastics with new oem and saved every single reciept to prove all the way from the first owner? But the only thing holding back the car was the mileage? What then?
People put alot of time, effort, and money into these cars and they should have a higher value or start increasing in value because getting work like this done isn't cheap. That's what people need to realize. Specialized shops are costly because everyone else are not trained to diagnose, reapir, and replace the parts in an rx7.
People put alot of time, effort, and money into these cars and they should have a higher value or start increasing in value because getting work like this done isn't cheap. That's what people need to realize. Specialized shops are costly because everyone else are not trained to diagnose, reapir, and replace the parts in an rx7.
Thanks you Fritz for your detailed analysis. It seems like good news for someone who may be saving up to own an FD.
The $2000 mentioned for refurbishing the interior is likely well spent. Eliminating tatty trim and squeaks and rattles, certainly improves the sense of value. Whereas, one naggy rattle has very much the opposite effect.
The $2000 mentioned for refurbishing the interior is likely well spent. Eliminating tatty trim and squeaks and rattles, certainly improves the sense of value. Whereas, one naggy rattle has very much the opposite effect.
03-09-17, 03:32 PM
#17
I'm not actually looking to sell. I was more implying that the value of the FD should be higher. Especially ones like mine that have the care as I put in it. Which in return brings up the value of the lesser sought after looked over cars. I never said I have a badass Rx7 because there are many others before mine. But I have only owned the car for 2 1/2 and I made the decisions to make the modifications listed.
Why do I need hype or internet fame? All I need is a weekend to drive the car to a place I've never been too.
Why do I need hype or internet fame? All I need is a weekend to drive the car to a place I've never been too.
Last edited by Rocketeerbandit; 03-09-17 at 03:34 PM.
03-09-17, 03:34 PM
#18
The Core is the Core
You have to have a way to give the buyer absolute confidence the motor is OK. Who knows, you might have blown the motor on the way home from the tuner shop, or been too impatient to do a 1500 (or so) mile break-in.
03-09-17, 03:39 PM
#19
Why would you go out of the way to rebuild the motor and upgrade all supporting mods to be reliable and not have the shop break it in for you? Especially if it has a warranty? I the shop owner would make that standard to ensure all aspects and elements are exactly the evironment you built the customers order for with zero scrutiny.
03-09-17, 03:42 PM
#20
All out Track Freak!
Thread Starter
iTrader: (263)
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Charlottesville VA 22901
Posts: 10,672
Received 416 Likes
on
252 Posts
I'm not actually looking to sell. I was more implying that the value of the FD should be higher. Especially ones like mine that have the care as I put in it. I never said I have a badass Rx7 because there are many others before mine. But I have only owned the car for 2 1/2 and I made the decisions to make the modifications listed.
Why do I need hype or internet fame? All I need is a weekend to drive the car to a place I've never been too.
Why do I need hype or internet fame? All I need is a weekend to drive the car to a place I've never been too.
03-09-17, 03:50 PM
#21
Warrant This
If you can find a reputable shop that would provide a transferable warranty, that might be worth paying something extra. I suspect it will be hard to find, and even the warranty you have might require that you prove you did not "owner error".
An alternative idea would be to sell a spare rebuilt motor along with your car. Pre-collected warranty.
An alternative idea would be to sell a spare rebuilt motor along with your car. Pre-collected warranty.
03-09-17, 04:31 PM
#22
If you can find a reputable shop that would provide a transferable warranty, that might be worth paying something extra. I suspect it will be hard to find, and even the warranty you have might require that you prove you did not "owner error".
An alternative idea would be to sell a spare rebuilt motor along with your car. Pre-collected warranty.
An alternative idea would be to sell a spare rebuilt motor along with your car. Pre-collected warranty.
03-09-17, 05:28 PM
#23
Rocketeerbandit
Why do I need hype or internet fame? All I need is a weekend to drive the car to a place I've never been too.
The hype and internet fame is if you want to sell a car for a premium price to a certain buyer segment that wants a specific famous car not just any FD.
It is known as pedigree in the collector car market.
These days you don't have to be selling a Fuji Grand Prix winning RX-3 to have pedigree, you could be selling the Monsterbox 3 rotor and more people would know what the hell car it was.
Why do I need hype or internet fame? All I need is a weekend to drive the car to a place I've never been too.
The hype and internet fame is if you want to sell a car for a premium price to a certain buyer segment that wants a specific famous car not just any FD.
It is known as pedigree in the collector car market.
These days you don't have to be selling a Fuji Grand Prix winning RX-3 to have pedigree, you could be selling the Monsterbox 3 rotor and more people would know what the hell car it was.
03-09-17, 05:42 PM
#24
I don't know a whole ton about the market, like some on here, but from my anecdotal research stock cars in very nice shape, and the very few perfect V8 cars sell for the most, I know my buddy got $32K for his. price corrected because I'm old.
Last edited by Littleguy; 03-09-17 at 08:27 PM.