How to value your FD
03-27-17, 02:51 PM
#201
To refocus on pricing a bit, perhaps we might think about demographic and economic effects that could be at play here right now. It has been said that we have come out of the recession that began around 2008-2009. Many of us do not believe we have ever come out of the recession. Certainly, GDP growth of an alleged 1.5% or so on average does not suggest any great improvement, like we had post 1991 or earlier post 1984, which saw improvements of 4%+ for several years. Also, while unemployment is allegedly below or at 5%, the Obama Administration rather arbitrarily reclassified millions of unemployed as being out of the workforce and, so, they were not counted in the unemployment numbers. In addition, the jobs that were added during the Obama years were largely service and part time jobs, which paid very little. Family incomes declined gradually during the entire 8 years. The young and especially Millennials may have been the hardest hit in terms of unemployment and income. Some estimates suggest 30-40% unemployment. Black Millennials were the hardest hit with unemployment over 50%. So, a large percentage of potential buyers may have been, and may still be, unable to buy cars they want. Middle aged buyers quite often are married and have children and may be saving or more cautious in their buying habits. They may be buying just the family car and may not be able to afford a sports car. Older buyers have the money, but may not have the interest. Many older Americans buy muscle cars and some buy Porsches or other exotics. Some buy FD's, but it is likely a small percentage.
The question, therefore, is whether more people will want and buy FD's as the economy actually improves as it seems to be now. Consumer confidence has skyrocketed, more good-paying jobs are being created and, hopefully, we will see a more traditional recovery in the next few years. I believe that when and if this happens we may well see FD prices go up very quickly. What do you guys think?
G
The question, therefore, is whether more people will want and buy FD's as the economy actually improves as it seems to be now. Consumer confidence has skyrocketed, more good-paying jobs are being created and, hopefully, we will see a more traditional recovery in the next few years. I believe that when and if this happens we may well see FD prices go up very quickly. What do you guys think?
G
03-27-17, 03:32 PM
#202
I'm telling you you can get a very nice FD for 18k, maybe less if you wait patiently. It's the pinnacle cars(ultra low miles r2 in a preferred color) that are pushing $30k
Aww. I'm not even being that bad. This kid just keeps BS'ing to justify his value perception or insulting the platform. I'm not interested in entertaining either.
The market is independent of his contrived opinion, and the car is pretty awesome.
Memer? Homie don't play that.
Aww. I'm not even being that bad. This kid just keeps BS'ing to justify his value perception or insulting the platform. I'm not interested in entertaining either.
The market is independent of his contrived opinion, and the car is pretty awesome.
Don't be hurt. This is a very very tough crowd and if you have money you fall into a lower category of person here. This is perhaps the only group I have ever come across whose members aggressively argue how worthless and unreliable their cars are. I would love to buy one of their houses when they go up for sale!
03-27-17, 03:53 PM
#203
These threads are geometrically better discussions regarding actual values and rationales, this was always going to be an op-ed thread....
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-gen-gene.../#post12140612
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-gen-gene.../#post12073440
So, yeah. About 5,500 left in the US circa summer 2016. And, how many good ones? Up until recently the Japanese loved to recycle them, and there aren't that many new ones (about 23k after '95 originally, not counting for wrecks and recycling and non-exports)
90's JDM supercars are on the up and up. The FD is diminishing in population, and the best pure sports car of the bunch(the other one's don't turn all good and stuff).
Also, the notion of "well you can go out and get X for $30k" is ridiculous in the context of any classic car be it Ferrari, or Porsche, or Austin Healey. No 328GTS owner is worried about a new mustang blowing their doors off. They got panache on their side, which you can't easily lease new off the lot.
So, there ya go. Prices are what they are. People build buffer into their ask to get the best price, 'cause that's economics. People are asking high for FDs right now, cause that's where the market is going and they know a rising tide raises all boats. The avg asking price for a 94+ on auto trader was $27k a couple days ago(short sells don't stay on the market and long sells tend to dictate the moving average). It is what it is. If you want a deal you have to wait and be ready with the cash.
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-gen-gene.../#post12140612
Are there 700-1000 92-95 (say) cars left in Japan? The current auction figures would point to there being considerably less survivors. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Well, lets look at production #s and where they were sold.
Not sure exactly how accurate these #s are.
When comparing to other numbers be aware that these are by production date and not date sold or "model year" as the US numbers are.
FD Models
1991-92 production
30,705 global --- 18,270 Japan
1993-94 production
11,431 global --- 6,611 Japan
1995 production
4,460 global --- 4,210 Japan
1996-97 production
9,754 global --- 9,754 Japan
1999 production
5,642 global --- 5,642 Japan
2000-02 production
7,309 global --- 7,309 Japan
So, 46,596 FDs produced 1991 to 1995.
We know some 13,879 were sold in North America (or just US?).
That leaves 32,717 '91-95 FDs available to import or leave in Japan.
There were only 22,705 FDs produced from '96-2002 in total.
69,301 total FDs produced and 46,596 of those were '91-'95.
Well, lets look at production #s and where they were sold.
Not sure exactly how accurate these #s are.
When comparing to other numbers be aware that these are by production date and not date sold or "model year" as the US numbers are.
FD Models
1991-92 production
30,705 global --- 18,270 Japan
1993-94 production
11,431 global --- 6,611 Japan
1995 production
4,460 global --- 4,210 Japan
1996-97 production
9,754 global --- 9,754 Japan
1999 production
5,642 global --- 5,642 Japan
2000-02 production
7,309 global --- 7,309 Japan
So, 46,596 FDs produced 1991 to 1995.
We know some 13,879 were sold in North America (or just US?).
That leaves 32,717 '91-95 FDs available to import or leave in Japan.
There were only 22,705 FDs produced from '96-2002 in total.
69,301 total FDs produced and 46,596 of those were '91-'95.
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-gen-gene.../#post12073440
Nothing I love more then the wisdom of the group.
So the group guessed 4822 collectively. The ACTUAL number is 5574.
Congrats to Smokey The Talon who was only off by 74!
1993 - Currently 3,818
1994 - Currently 1,509
1995 - Currently 247
TOTAL - 5,574
I don't exactly know what to make of it.
On one hand only 40% of FDs are still registered. That's kinda sad, but makes the car even that more collectible. Possibly more alarming, in 2011 there were 8070, in 2014 there were 6095, and now there 5574. What's that about? Basically 500 disappearing a year? How will THAT trend stand up? I assume it's gotta level off, but even still, 500 a year feels like a BIG number.
The flip-side of this coin is all the FDs that are sitting in garages, under tarps, at the shop unregistered but having life breathed back into them. I know I have one of those kicking around.
All I know is; I'm glad to be a part of a small (and shrinking) group of purists.
So the group guessed 4822 collectively. The ACTUAL number is 5574.
Congrats to Smokey The Talon who was only off by 74!
1993 - Currently 3,818
1994 - Currently 1,509
1995 - Currently 247
TOTAL - 5,574
I don't exactly know what to make of it.
On one hand only 40% of FDs are still registered. That's kinda sad, but makes the car even that more collectible. Possibly more alarming, in 2011 there were 8070, in 2014 there were 6095, and now there 5574. What's that about? Basically 500 disappearing a year? How will THAT trend stand up? I assume it's gotta level off, but even still, 500 a year feels like a BIG number.
The flip-side of this coin is all the FDs that are sitting in garages, under tarps, at the shop unregistered but having life breathed back into them. I know I have one of those kicking around.
All I know is; I'm glad to be a part of a small (and shrinking) group of purists.
90's JDM supercars are on the up and up. The FD is diminishing in population, and the best pure sports car of the bunch(the other one's don't turn all good and stuff).
Also, the notion of "well you can go out and get X for $30k" is ridiculous in the context of any classic car be it Ferrari, or Porsche, or Austin Healey. No 328GTS owner is worried about a new mustang blowing their doors off. They got panache on their side, which you can't easily lease new off the lot.
So, there ya go. Prices are what they are. People build buffer into their ask to get the best price, 'cause that's economics. People are asking high for FDs right now, cause that's where the market is going and they know a rising tide raises all boats. The avg asking price for a 94+ on auto trader was $27k a couple days ago(short sells don't stay on the market and long sells tend to dictate the moving average). It is what it is. If you want a deal you have to wait and be ready with the cash.
03-27-17, 04:37 PM
#204
Oh yeah I remember but I should note that I was agreeing with bmwtmx's statement independent of his price. Reason being that so many people in the past have said that this car would never go up in value and will never be a collector because it's japanese, rotary, not realiable, ect, ect... I on the other hand have always stood by my argument that this car was going to mirror the muscle car market of the late 60's early 70's and go up in value.
Last edited by Montego; 03-27-17 at 04:52 PM.
03-27-17, 04:56 PM
#205
All out Track Freak!
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I don't know what else we can possibly tell you. If you want a top mark rx7 you're looking at $25k+ and rising. You can get a "good" FD at $18k, give or take. Anything under that is a steal or a basket case. Fritz is an old school wholesaler(and a reputable one). He's not a collector, or partial to any particular car like buyers may be.
Here's a variety of rx7's that actually sold at public auction, with commentary.
1995 Mazda RX-7 | Bring a Trailer
1993 Mazda RX-7 | Bring a Trailer
37k-Mile 1993 Mazda RX-7 | Bring a Trailer
1993 Mazda RX-7 Touring | Bring a Trailer
Original Owner 1993 Mazda RX-7 | Bring a Trailer
33K-Mile 1993 Mazda RX-7 Touring | Bring a Trailer
I realize you can't tell any of those apart(because your more interested in blowing hot air than actually learning about them). But, there you go.
Lord help this newb...
Here's a variety of rx7's that actually sold at public auction, with commentary.
1995 Mazda RX-7 | Bring a Trailer
1993 Mazda RX-7 | Bring a Trailer
37k-Mile 1993 Mazda RX-7 | Bring a Trailer
1993 Mazda RX-7 Touring | Bring a Trailer
Original Owner 1993 Mazda RX-7 | Bring a Trailer
33K-Mile 1993 Mazda RX-7 Touring | Bring a Trailer
I realize you can't tell any of those apart(because your more interested in blowing hot air than actually learning about them). But, there you go.
Lord help this newb...
This forum is still a great place to buy them 
To refocus on pricing a bit, perhaps we might think about demographic and economic effects that could be at play here right now. It has been said that we have come out of the recession that began around 2008-2009. Many of us do not believe we have ever come out of the recession. Certainly, GDP growth of an alleged 1.5% or so on average does not suggest any great improvement, like we had post 1991 or earlier post 1984, which saw improvements of 4%+ for several years. Also, while unemployment is allegedly below or at 5%, the Obama Administration rather arbitrarily reclassified millions of unemployed as being out of the workforce and, so, they were not counted in the unemployment numbers. In addition, the jobs that were added during the Obama years were largely service and part time jobs, which paid very little. Family incomes declined gradually during the entire 8 years. The young and especially Millennials may have been the hardest hit in terms of unemployment and income. Some estimates suggest 30-40% unemployment. Black Millennials were the hardest hit with unemployment over 50%. So, a large percentage of potential buyers may have been, and may still be, unable to buy cars they want. Middle aged buyers quite often are married and have children and may be saving or more cautious in their buying habits. They may be buying just the family car and may not be able to afford a sports car. Older buyers have the money, but may not have the interest. Many older Americans buy muscle cars and some buy Porsches or other exotics. Some buy FD's, but it is likely a small percentage.
The question, therefore, is whether more people will want and buy FD's as the economy actually improves as it seems to be now. Consumer confidence has skyrocketed, more good-paying jobs are being created and, hopefully, we will see a more traditional recovery in the next few years. I believe that when and if this happens we may well see FD prices go up very quickly. What do you guys think?
G
The question, therefore, is whether more people will want and buy FD's as the economy actually improves as it seems to be now. Consumer confidence has skyrocketed, more good-paying jobs are being created and, hopefully, we will see a more traditional recovery in the next few years. I believe that when and if this happens we may well see FD prices go up very quickly. What do you guys think?
G
While I think almost everything you say about the economy is wrong I will say that I have always thought that prices peak for a car at the time when the people who were young and wanted them when they came out (say 16-25 year olds for example) reach an average age of around 50 - 55. At that point the kids are gone and they have been saving for a while so they are ready for a fun car and people want something that they wanted as teenagers because they are fulfilling a dream and it makes them feel young again. For the FD I am guessing this peak value age time will be around 2025-2030.
Last edited by Fritz Flynn; 03-27-17 at 05:12 PM.
03-27-17, 05:07 PM
#207
Watch Vancouver
Vancouver has been a major North American port for Japanese car imports since the late 1960s, so the affinity for Japanese cars may be much stronger. RX7s were very much part of the tuner scene in past years, but it seems we are definitely seeing a resurgence of interest. As our group grows the number of recent RHD imports spied on our streets is accelerating (literally). Meanwhile, folks who have had their LHD in storage are bringing them out, partly because there is more chance to get like minded people and cars out to meets. Also many of our group are re-upping their commitment to the cars, spending, say, $10 - 15,000 for appearance or horsepower mods. The top rotary tuning shop has seen a significant pick up of cars being brought in for reliability or performance upgrades; with cars coming in from Alberta and Washington State.
Last edited by Redbul; 03-27-17 at 05:12 PM.
03-27-17, 05:16 PM
#208
All out Track Freak!
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Vancouver has been a major North American port for Japanese car imports since the late 1960s, so the affinity for Japanese cars may be much stronger. RX7s were very much part of the tuner scene in past years, but it seems we are definitely seeing a resurgence of interest. As our group grows the number of recent RHD imports spied on our streets is accelerating (literally). Meanwhile, folks who have had their LHD in storage are bringing them out, partly because there is more chance to get like minded people and cars out to meets. Also many of our group are re-upping their commitment to the cars, spending, say, $10 - 15,000 for appearance or horsepower mods. The top rotary tuning shop has seen a significant pick up of cars being brought in for reliability or performance upgrades; with cars coming in from Alberta and Washington State.
03-27-17, 05:31 PM
#209
I've been of the same mind, as you know. There hasn't been a car like the FD since, say, something like the Lotus Elite, which was a beautiful, very lightweight 2 seater coupe with a fascinating modified firepump for an engine. It could also be likened to the Porsche 550 Spyders, which was also lightweight and had a fascinating boxer dohc 4 banger. However, neither the Elite nor the 550 were among the faster cars of their day, whereas the FD was and is right up there with the faster cars.
G
G
03-28-17, 12:25 PM
#211
I've been of the same mind, as you know. There hasn't been a car like the FD since, say, something like the Lotus Elite, which was a beautiful, very lightweight 2 seater coupe with a fascinating modified firepump for an engine. It could also be likened to the Porsche 550 Spyders, which was also lightweight and had a fascinating boxer dohc 4 banger. However, neither the Elite nor the 550 were among the faster cars of their day, whereas the FD was and is right up there with the faster cars.
G
G
03-28-17, 07:35 PM
#215
All out Track Freak!
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Most Miata people think it's 150 HP engine is brilliant while the other 99 percent of the sports car world are screaming for more power.
If mazda had a glue they would have increased the HP which would have doubled the sales.
IDIOTS!!!
PS also made it a hard top coupe. Christ, this **** isn't rocket science
03-28-17, 08:51 PM
#218
Would any of you buy this? looks like a 93 CYM R1 for 35k!... ooh and the price will go up if they fix the issues with it, seems insane to me. https://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/cto/6064483079.html
03-28-17, 09:06 PM
#219
It's not to my taste, and seems a little high to have any issues whatsoever(dunno what that green cable is, they should read the odometer fix thread). But, if you just have to have a very low miles cym r1 it's not insane. Close enough to offer, anyways.
03-28-17, 09:13 PM
#220
I'm taking it back to stock for almost everything, just a few parts where I'm not willing to pony up for OEM when it's more expensive and less reliable. I'm keeping the Megan toe links and doing banzai racing street motor mounts, because I don't feel like paying 500 for OEM mounts and hundreds more for toe link bushings. I'm going back to stock brakes because the current pads and rotors are noisy and the cross drilled rotors look out of place on stock wheels. I'm trying to get the original stock non Bose radio rebuilt now, as the aftermarket deck also looks out of place in a 90s interior. I really want an original looking interior. It was retrofitted with a Miata battery but I just ordered the parts to go back to stock bracket and battery cover so I can get a standard battery.
I've been invited to put the vehicle in the Concourse St. John's in Michigan if I can get it ready.
Only engine performance mods will be the OEM JDM downpipe and RB catback, dual tip. A brand new OEM muffler cost almost the same amount from Ray Crowe. All the under hood stuff is being replaced with OEM parts, so OEM air separation tank, brand new OEM solenoids, except the check valves. I'm not paying hundreds for shitty check valves compared to the dale clark ones.
Last edited by arghx; 03-28-17 at 09:18 PM.
03-28-17, 09:19 PM
#221
God your right i just did a quick search and even compared to some of the cym's posted here, factoring in mileage this isn't that bad a price if your into the yellow FD'S, im not a huge fan but they do look good with some body mods. guess i've been out of the market too long. you can find used Ferrari's at these prices (not that there any better)
03-29-17, 12:27 AM
#222
Right... Pretty sure the mazda bean counters have a bit more knowledge on the subject than one person who has no interest in being in their target market.
I agree with you fully that it would be wonderful if they offered a higher powered version, but calling them idiots is short sighted and isn't doing much of making yourself sound credible.
Best selling convertible two-seater sports car | Guinness World Records
Its quite clear mazda found the nearest thing to a perfect sports car formula from a numbers perspective. What do you think will happen to it's reputation if they put a rotary in it and the thing needs rebuilds every 80k? What percentage of buyers are going to opt for the more expensive rotary model vs the damage it does to the miata image of buyers who are now put off by the inevitable swarm of bad press the car will now get? A Huge selling point of the car is its simplicity and reliability. Cheap fun. Not everybody has the fun bar raised to GT3's and track prep'd FD's.
For discussions sake, how many cars ln the miata's class had been built over the years with more power and failed? Why do you think the miata is the only one that survived over the years? I'm not seeing the average buyer of new miata's chasing Mazda with pitchforks demanding more power, they seem quite content with the car's numbers based off sales numbers.
Last edited by Spirit-RE; 03-29-17 at 12:37 AM.
03-29-17, 01:24 AM
#224
Rotary Enthusiast
For discussions sake, how many cars ln the miata's class had been built over the years with more power and failed? Why do you think the miata is the only one that survived over the years? I'm not seeing the average buyer of new miata's chasing Mazda with pitchforks demanding more power, they seem quite content with the car's numbers based off sales numbers.
when you got ls everywhere