Synthetic Oils, Good or Bad?
09-30-01, 01:00 PM
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Synthetic Oils, Good or Bad?
Are Synthetic Oils good? I hear Pettit Racing say its good. And I hear many other people saying they are bad. So whats the truth? Pettit is a big company and they are probably right. Pettit says that, Protek-R, is a good synthetic oil and that its good for Rotary Engines.
On their site they say:
Pettit Racing
Protek-R
Synthetic Fuel Lubricant
Protek-R is specially designed for use in Rotary Engines. Protek-R is an advanced high performance synthetic lubricity system which contains precision engineered lubricating molecules that help protect Rotary Engines from the damaging effects of molecular shearing and metal to metal contact. Regular use of Protek-R's superior formula has the following advantages:
- Reduced wear on rotor housings and side housings
- Clean Burn Technology reduces carbon and residue build-up
- Ashless, No smoke formula provides cleaner exhaust than 2-stroke oil
- Anti-Oxidation protection against fuel system rust and corrosion
- Low flash point helps stop plug fouling
DIRECTIONS:
Add Protek-R to tank before adding fuel using the following formula:
STREET: Minimum of one 4-oz bottle per full 12 gallon tank
RACE: Mix at Ratio 100:1
PLEASE HELP!!! I need to know if I should use synthetic oils or not. THANKS
1FAST7
On their site they say:
Pettit Racing
Protek-R
Synthetic Fuel Lubricant
Protek-R is specially designed for use in Rotary Engines. Protek-R is an advanced high performance synthetic lubricity system which contains precision engineered lubricating molecules that help protect Rotary Engines from the damaging effects of molecular shearing and metal to metal contact. Regular use of Protek-R's superior formula has the following advantages:
- Reduced wear on rotor housings and side housings
- Clean Burn Technology reduces carbon and residue build-up
- Ashless, No smoke formula provides cleaner exhaust than 2-stroke oil
- Anti-Oxidation protection against fuel system rust and corrosion
- Low flash point helps stop plug fouling
DIRECTIONS:
Add Protek-R to tank before adding fuel using the following formula:
STREET: Minimum of one 4-oz bottle per full 12 gallon tank
RACE: Mix at Ratio 100:1
PLEASE HELP!!! I need to know if I should use synthetic oils or not. THANKS
1FAST7
09-30-01, 01:07 PM
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On the Pettit site, it also says:
- Extends engine life
- Reduces internal friction and wear
- Less drag and more power
- Full protection against rust and corrosion
- Blends completely with fuel
- Easier starting
- Carbon free
- 100% synthetic
If thats true then I would buy the Synthetic Oil by Protek-R any day...
1FAST7
- Extends engine life
- Reduces internal friction and wear
- Less drag and more power
- Full protection against rust and corrosion
- Blends completely with fuel
- Easier starting
- Carbon free
- 100% synthetic
If thats true then I would buy the Synthetic Oil by Protek-R any day...
1FAST7
09-30-01, 01:31 PM
#3
The manufacturers of Protek-R 2-cycle oil also have an identical product as a different name for a much cheaper price. find out who manufactures protek-r and you will find the cousin product.
Many Japanese rotary tuners have been embracing synthethics... and in some form slapped on their labels and packaged it out as their in house brands. Racing Beat over here also endorses Royal Purple synthethic.
Many Japanese rotary tuners have been embracing synthethics... and in some form slapped on their labels and packaged it out as their in house brands. Racing Beat over here also endorses Royal Purple synthethic.
09-30-01, 01:43 PM
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oil
Since my car was rebuilt, and upgraded to single thats all i have used, is synthetic oil, (royal purple) and i havent had any problems. I also do the pre mix to, when I fill up.They say it will help also extend the life of the turbo and keep heat down, anything that creates less friction, I dont see how it can hurt, and if pettit, and racing beat are using it you know its been tested.
09-30-01, 05:13 PM
#6
Originally posted by 1FAST7
Whats better, Royal Purple or Protek-R? Anyone else have experience with synthetic oils?
1FAST7
Whats better, Royal Purple or Protek-R? Anyone else have experience with synthetic oils?
1FAST7
I've run Redline Oil in my car for 5+ yrs and am still on the original engine.
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09-30-01, 09:14 PM
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a debate with a long history
I use have been using Castrol Synthetic (engine oil) for the past three years in my FD and haven't had any problems. Don't forget that rotaries burn oil, somewhat like a 2 stroke engine. Synthetic oil doesn't burn of like real petroleum, so there is much more deposition, theoretically at least. Personally, I think the advantages outweigh the possibilities.
There does exist an oil metering pump that deposits engine oil into the combustion chamber. The amount depends upon the throttle position. The older 13Bs used oil injectors. Also, some of the stand alone ECUs (Haltech) require you to premix 2 strke oil.
There does exist an oil metering pump that deposits engine oil into the combustion chamber. The amount depends upon the throttle position. The older 13Bs used oil injectors. Also, some of the stand alone ECUs (Haltech) require you to premix 2 strke oil.
10-01-01, 11:41 AM
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I've tried about a dozen different brands/types of oil and I can honestly say that Royal Purple is the only oil that makes a noticeable difference in how my car performs/runs.
I suggest it to anyone....
It's available at 4.75 a quart locally, which isn't too bad.....
-Matt
'93 TT
I suggest it to anyone....
It's available at 4.75 a quart locally, which isn't too bad.....
-Matt
'93 TT
10-01-01, 02:51 PM
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im sorry...i DONT wanna sound like an idiot BUT........
BUT why are you guys talking about PUTTING in SYNTHETIC OIL in when you are filling up fuel??????u PUT it in the GAS tank or oil in ur motor??? please clarify.......................
BUT why are you guys talking about PUTTING in SYNTHETIC OIL in when you are filling up fuel??????u PUT it in the GAS tank or oil in ur motor??? please clarify.......................
10-01-01, 03:34 PM
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Hey Dragueur,
The rotary engine is designed to inject small amounts of oil into the combustion chamber (through the oil metering pump a.k.a. OMP - 3rd gen OMPs are electrical while older models are mechanical). This is done in order to lubricate the apex seals and keep combustion tempatures down.
Some stand alone ECUs like Haltech are not able to control the OMP (I think -- do not take my word on this since I do not own a Haltech unit) so owners are forced to either use premix (pouring in the appropriate amount of oil {Protek, MMO, etc.} or change the electrical OMP to a mechanical one. Hope this helps answer some questions--Tommy
The rotary engine is designed to inject small amounts of oil into the combustion chamber (through the oil metering pump a.k.a. OMP - 3rd gen OMPs are electrical while older models are mechanical). This is done in order to lubricate the apex seals and keep combustion tempatures down.
Some stand alone ECUs like Haltech are not able to control the OMP (I think -- do not take my word on this since I do not own a Haltech unit) so owners are forced to either use premix (pouring in the appropriate amount of oil {Protek, MMO, etc.} or change the electrical OMP to a mechanical one. Hope this helps answer some questions--Tommy
10-01-01, 06:00 PM
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oil
NO! You only add 4oz of pre mix per fill up. If you added one quart, boy would the car smoke, it probably wouldnt run right, ONLY 4OZ, but ive heard you can put up to 8oz never tried. royal purple is the way to go for engine oil. I use amsoil for the pre mix 100 to 1.
Last edited by Mid_KnightFD; 10-01-01 at 06:03 PM.
10-01-01, 06:12 PM
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OK!! im REALLY REALLY REALLY SORRY NOW......but yah STILL havent ANSWERED me.....does the PREMIX GO IN the GAS TANK or OIL thingy in MOTOR?????? DONT..whats that word yah USE...FLAME?
10-01-01, 10:34 PM
#19
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japanese tuners use synthetic oils in their cars. The chief mechanic from Knight Sports recommends using Redling 20W50, with premixture of 100 to 1, they say that synthetic oiils are better for performance and engine protection.
Most american people however, recommend using non-synthetic. They say that synthetic oil can screw up your oil-metering pump, which cost about $1500 and also the premixture stuff makes your gas run leaner.
I've been using castrol GTX 20W50 and so far, I have no engine problems. I change my oil about every 1200 miles and make sure it runs clean. If I ever upgrade to a single turbo, or anything more than what I already have, I will use the japanese approach and use redline
Most american people however, recommend using non-synthetic. They say that synthetic oil can screw up your oil-metering pump, which cost about $1500 and also the premixture stuff makes your gas run leaner.
I've been using castrol GTX 20W50 and so far, I have no engine problems. I change my oil about every 1200 miles and make sure it runs clean. If I ever upgrade to a single turbo, or anything more than what I already have, I will use the japanese approach and use redline
10-01-01, 10:49 PM
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I have a couple of things to add to this since I have killed it in the FC section 
The combustion temps in the rotary engine are about what 1200-1600F? Can anyone tell me what temp most synthetic oil hits flash point? ~600F Now with that in mind, what are the odds that there is going to be leftovers in the combustion chamber from oil? The older oils didn't have the technology that we have today. That is the reason that the synthetic oils used to have a bad rap. Older oils used to not be good, and most if not all were very bad to use in the rotary engine. I use royal purple racing 21 in our Project 86 TII and I use royal purple 10W30 regular synthetic oil in my 91 N/A vert. I gained 3HP on the G-Tech and aftermarket oil gauges registered -5F just at idle and up to -15 under hard boost. Oil pressure was lowered by about 3-5psi compared to dino oil.
Also, the electric OMP's were from 89+. I have never heard of any data referring to an OMP failing due to synthetic. I really can't see how it would affect it. Personally, I remove them and sell them before I install the motor then I get back a couple hunderd bucks to offset the motor
On someones question about Mobil 1. I have never used it, but I know FB drivers that use it and a few that race with it. They all love it. I also know people that have put it into their piston cars/trucks and have had the motor leak like crazy when they added it.
Just my .02HP
The combustion temps in the rotary engine are about what 1200-1600F? Can anyone tell me what temp most synthetic oil hits flash point? ~600F Now with that in mind, what are the odds that there is going to be leftovers in the combustion chamber from oil?
The older oils didn't have the technology that we have today. That is the reason that the synthetic oils used to have a bad rap. Older oils used to not be good, and most if not all were very bad to use in the rotary engine. I use royal purple racing 21 in our Project 86 TII and I use royal purple 10W30 regular synthetic oil in my 91 N/A vert. I gained 3HP on the G-Tech and aftermarket oil gauges registered -5F just at idle and up to -15 under hard boost. Oil pressure was lowered by about 3-5psi compared to dino oil. Also, the electric OMP's were from 89+. I have never heard of any data referring to an OMP failing due to synthetic. I really can't see how it would affect it. Personally, I remove them and sell them before I install the motor then I get back a couple hunderd bucks to offset the motor
On someones question about Mobil 1. I have never used it, but I know FB drivers that use it and a few that race with it. They all love it. I also know people that have put it into their piston cars/trucks and have had the motor leak like crazy when they added it.
Just my .02HP
10-02-01, 08:21 AM
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Answer to the above post
Previously posted: "Now with that in mind, what are the odds that there is going to be leftovers in the combustion chamber from [synthetic] oil?"
Of course the internal engine temps are far above the flashpoint for synthetic, but the molecular structure of synthetic doesn't allow it to burn completely. Those same physical properties allow it to display more a stable structure under heat and stress (proven by your guages).
I do agree however, about the comment concerning the OMPs. I don't see how synthetic could clog the meters. I would like to hear testimony to that fact though.
Of course the internal engine temps are far above the flashpoint for synthetic, but the molecular structure of synthetic doesn't allow it to burn completely. Those same physical properties allow it to display more a stable structure under heat and stress (proven by your guages).
I do agree however, about the comment concerning the OMPs. I don't see how synthetic could clog the meters. I would like to hear testimony to that fact though.
10-03-01, 11:57 AM
#22
I'll type this in straight from the Racing Beat Rotary Performance Technical Manual:
"The Mazda factory does not recommend the use of synthetic oils in their rotary engines - specifically addressing this issue in the Owner's Manual.
In 1979, Racing Beat began testing synthetic lubrication products. Without a doubt, the best synthetic oils do perform well in extreme heat (over 300 F) and extreme cold (below 32 F), but by the nature of Mazda's rotary engine, the oil temperature never exceeds 250 F without severe engine damage due to other factors. In Souther California, we have difficulty seeing the low-temperature benefits: however, when we put synthetic lubricants in the engine, transmission, and differential in our IMSA GTU race car, we immediately saw what we later found to be a common result: The oil temperature in all three locations dropped 5 to 10 F for the same operating conditions. This is apparently due to two factors: reduced friction between sliding surfaces, and reduced foaming. As we continued to use synthetic oil products it became clear that they genuinely reduced wear. We also found benefits in street use. On two occassions, cars with "scratchy" transmissions synchronizers were completely cured by a change to synthetic gear lube. After many years of experience with these products we have observed only one problem: because of the reduced friction, the time necessary to break in an engine, transmission, or limted slip differential (standard differentials are no problem) is excessively long, so we recommend using mineral oil in all three for a time to ensure rapid break in."
Hope that helps.
"The Mazda factory does not recommend the use of synthetic oils in their rotary engines - specifically addressing this issue in the Owner's Manual.
In 1979, Racing Beat began testing synthetic lubrication products. Without a doubt, the best synthetic oils do perform well in extreme heat (over 300 F) and extreme cold (below 32 F), but by the nature of Mazda's rotary engine, the oil temperature never exceeds 250 F without severe engine damage due to other factors. In Souther California, we have difficulty seeing the low-temperature benefits: however, when we put synthetic lubricants in the engine, transmission, and differential in our IMSA GTU race car, we immediately saw what we later found to be a common result: The oil temperature in all three locations dropped 5 to 10 F for the same operating conditions. This is apparently due to two factors: reduced friction between sliding surfaces, and reduced foaming. As we continued to use synthetic oil products it became clear that they genuinely reduced wear. We also found benefits in street use. On two occassions, cars with "scratchy" transmissions synchronizers were completely cured by a change to synthetic gear lube. After many years of experience with these products we have observed only one problem: because of the reduced friction, the time necessary to break in an engine, transmission, or limted slip differential (standard differentials are no problem) is excessively long, so we recommend using mineral oil in all three for a time to ensure rapid break in."
Hope that helps.
10-03-01, 01:33 PM
#23
www.silverbulletrx7.com
Re: Answer to the above post
Originally posted by rocketrx7
Previously posted: "Now with that in mind, what are the odds that there is going to be leftovers in the combustion chamber from [synthetic] oil?"
Of course the internal engine temps are far above the flashpoint for synthetic, but the molecular structure of synthetic doesn't allow it to burn completely. Those same physical properties allow it to display more a stable structure under heat and stress (proven by your guages).
Previously posted: "Now with that in mind, what are the odds that there is going to be leftovers in the combustion chamber from [synthetic] oil?"
Of course the internal engine temps are far above the flashpoint for synthetic, but the molecular structure of synthetic doesn't allow it to burn completely. Those same physical properties allow it to display more a stable structure under heat and stress (proven by your guages).
http://www.vtr.org/maintain/oil-overview.html
It is more than you ever wanted to know about motor oils and lists flash points and %ash (or unburned stuff) for many different motor oils.
09-23-04, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Mahjik
I'll type this in straight from the Racing Beat Rotary Performance Technical Manual:
"The Mazda factory does not recommend the use of synthetic oils in their rotary engines - specifically addressing this issue in the Owner's Manual.
In 1979, Racing Beat began testing synthetic lubrication products. Without a doubt, the best synthetic oils do perform well in extreme heat (over 300 F) and extreme cold (below 32 F), but by the nature of Mazda's rotary engine, the oil temperature never exceeds 250 F without severe engine damage due to other factors. In Souther California, we have difficulty seeing the low-temperature benefits: however, when we put synthetic lubricants in the engine, transmission, and differential in our IMSA GTU race car, we immediately saw what we later found to be a common result: The oil temperature in all three locations dropped 5 to 10 F for the same operating conditions. This is apparently due to two factors: reduced friction between sliding surfaces, and reduced foaming. As we continued to use synthetic oil products it became clear that they genuinely reduced wear. We also found benefits in street use. On two occassions, cars with "scratchy" transmissions synchronizers were completely cured by a change to synthetic gear lube. After many years of experience with these products we have observed only one problem: because of the reduced friction, the time necessary to break in an engine, transmission, or limted slip differential (standard differentials are no problem) is excessively long, so we recommend using mineral oil in all three for a time to ensure rapid break in."
Hope that helps.
"The Mazda factory does not recommend the use of synthetic oils in their rotary engines - specifically addressing this issue in the Owner's Manual.
In 1979, Racing Beat began testing synthetic lubrication products. Without a doubt, the best synthetic oils do perform well in extreme heat (over 300 F) and extreme cold (below 32 F), but by the nature of Mazda's rotary engine, the oil temperature never exceeds 250 F without severe engine damage due to other factors. In Souther California, we have difficulty seeing the low-temperature benefits: however, when we put synthetic lubricants in the engine, transmission, and differential in our IMSA GTU race car, we immediately saw what we later found to be a common result: The oil temperature in all three locations dropped 5 to 10 F for the same operating conditions. This is apparently due to two factors: reduced friction between sliding surfaces, and reduced foaming. As we continued to use synthetic oil products it became clear that they genuinely reduced wear. We also found benefits in street use. On two occassions, cars with "scratchy" transmissions synchronizers were completely cured by a change to synthetic gear lube. After many years of experience with these products we have observed only one problem: because of the reduced friction, the time necessary to break in an engine, transmission, or limted slip differential (standard differentials are no problem) is excessively long, so we recommend using mineral oil in all three for a time to ensure rapid break in."
Hope that helps.
