How much power can you get out of the stock TMIC? My journey....
11-26-14, 09:38 PM
#1
How much power can you get out of the stock TMIC? My journey....
The short answer? Quite a bit or power, but not for long periods.
I've been building up a car aimed at track days/ time attack. I decided several years ago that I wouldn't run a FMIC (mainly because of radiator blockage, but also throttle response), and I don't have the resources to run a V-mount at this time. This left me with making the best of the stock intercooler until I can upgrade. As you can see, I went through a number of attempts but the failures were unrelated to the TMIC.
Short run-down:
BNR Stage IV Turbo
Stock TMIC
RB 2.5" downpipe running to Apex N1 single
Custom CAI with filter located in front bumper
Haltech E6X
550/1680 injectors
AEM progressive methanol controller
Engine 1 - J-spec swap; bone stock, DP, intake, haltech, and injectors.
Stock turbo would put out a lot (15+psi) of boost, but it was all hot air. I actually saw intake temps over 220F! I dropped the motor in as-is to work out the kinks in the Haltech install. The motor never ran right, however, because of a stuck side seal so I pulled it once I had the Haltech working. Even still, I ran a 14 @ 100 in the 1/4 with an AWFUL launch.
Engines 2-4 - Died of various causes, mostly from me rushing when building them
Engine 5 - current engine
After finding some major problems in the fuel and ignition maps, I currently have it dialed in well, but a bit on the conservative side. It pulls like a freight train! I'm getting usable boost by 3.5k, with it peaking at 18 PSI at 5k, then dropping down to a steady 13 PSI. This is mostly due to the horrible design of the outlet on the TMIC, but I'm sure some of it is the turbo getting over driven. Its still running rich to the point of ignition breakup around 7k, so there's definitely room for improvement.
The good: Engine number 3, with 10-12 boost with no methanol and no tuning at all ran a 13.7 @104 with a bad launch and spinning 1st gear.
I haven't taken it to the track or dyno yet, but it pulls really, really hard. It reliably breaks loose in 2nd gear and usually breaks loose in 3rd gear. I'm running 225 width BFG G-Force Sports. Nothing super-sticky, but still pretty good.
The bad: IATs got as high 65c after a 1st-4th pull to ~100. However, these are take BEFORE the meth injector so its going to be lower that in reality, but it still worries me. As-is, its fine on the drag strip but I don't feel comfortable with taking out on a real track. Also, the previously mentioned choking of the turbo above 5k.
The future: I'm going to modify the outlet of the intercooler to go straight out instead of the sharp right, then do a gradual 180 into a normal greddy TB adapter, with the meth nozzle placed farther away from TB so it can mix better before it enters the intake. Someone else on the board did this and it worked well for him, so I'm fairly optimistic. I'm taking the intercooler to the shop on Friday, so I'll post updates when I get it back.
I've been building up a car aimed at track days/ time attack. I decided several years ago that I wouldn't run a FMIC (mainly because of radiator blockage, but also throttle response), and I don't have the resources to run a V-mount at this time. This left me with making the best of the stock intercooler until I can upgrade. As you can see, I went through a number of attempts but the failures were unrelated to the TMIC.
Short run-down:
BNR Stage IV Turbo
Stock TMIC
RB 2.5" downpipe running to Apex N1 single
Custom CAI with filter located in front bumper
Haltech E6X
550/1680 injectors
AEM progressive methanol controller
Engine 1 - J-spec swap; bone stock, DP, intake, haltech, and injectors.
Stock turbo would put out a lot (15+psi) of boost, but it was all hot air. I actually saw intake temps over 220F! I dropped the motor in as-is to work out the kinks in the Haltech install. The motor never ran right, however, because of a stuck side seal so I pulled it once I had the Haltech working. Even still, I ran a 14 @ 100 in the 1/4 with an AWFUL launch.
Engines 2-4 - Died of various causes, mostly from me rushing when building them
Engine 5 - current engine
After finding some major problems in the fuel and ignition maps, I currently have it dialed in well, but a bit on the conservative side. It pulls like a freight train! I'm getting usable boost by 3.5k, with it peaking at 18 PSI at 5k, then dropping down to a steady 13 PSI. This is mostly due to the horrible design of the outlet on the TMIC, but I'm sure some of it is the turbo getting over driven. Its still running rich to the point of ignition breakup around 7k, so there's definitely room for improvement.
The good: Engine number 3, with 10-12 boost with no methanol and no tuning at all ran a 13.7 @104 with a bad launch and spinning 1st gear.
I haven't taken it to the track or dyno yet, but it pulls really, really hard. It reliably breaks loose in 2nd gear and usually breaks loose in 3rd gear. I'm running 225 width BFG G-Force Sports. Nothing super-sticky, but still pretty good.
The bad: IATs got as high 65c after a 1st-4th pull to ~100. However, these are take BEFORE the meth injector so its going to be lower that in reality, but it still worries me. As-is, its fine on the drag strip but I don't feel comfortable with taking out on a real track. Also, the previously mentioned choking of the turbo above 5k.
The future: I'm going to modify the outlet of the intercooler to go straight out instead of the sharp right, then do a gradual 180 into a normal greddy TB adapter, with the meth nozzle placed farther away from TB so it can mix better before it enters the intake. Someone else on the board did this and it worked well for him, so I'm fairly optimistic. I'm taking the intercooler to the shop on Friday, so I'll post updates when I get it back.
12-01-14, 12:17 PM
#6
Sen - awesome that you commented! That thread is exactly what I'm modeling it after.
I just read through that whole thread and noticed the part about the manifold porting. You mentioned that it made a huge difference, but that was on the same post as the downpipe. How much of the gains would you say were from the intake porting?
Unfortunately I don't have even close to the metal working skill you have, so I'm going to have a local machine shop do the intercooler and I'm trying to decide if it would be worth while to do it with the intake as well. I'm not sure what I was thinking, but the intake runners were ported fairly heavily with the bridge port but I never did anything with the manifold.
Also - I already have a BNR stage IV, which as far as I can tell is pretty much as large as you can go with the stock CHRA.
I just read through that whole thread and noticed the part about the manifold porting. You mentioned that it made a huge difference, but that was on the same post as the downpipe. How much of the gains would you say were from the intake porting?
Unfortunately I don't have even close to the metal working skill you have, so I'm going to have a local machine shop do the intercooler and I'm trying to decide if it would be worth while to do it with the intake as well. I'm not sure what I was thinking, but the intake runners were ported fairly heavily with the bridge port but I never did anything with the manifold.
Also - I already have a BNR stage IV, which as far as I can tell is pretty much as large as you can go with the stock CHRA.
12-01-14, 03:00 PM
#7
I have the new BNR stage 3 turbo. You can see them on his face book page. I still don't see the details on his website.
Anyhow I have the ARC top mount and will be running a AEM water injection kit to try and run at least 18psi. We will see. Been some time. Hopefully I will have dyno's before next summer.
Anyhow I have the ARC top mount and will be running a AEM water injection kit to try and run at least 18psi. We will see. Been some time. Hopefully I will have dyno's before next summer.
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12-01-14, 09:38 PM
#9
I think i did the modifications at different times. porting the lower intake manifold probably is barely noticeable. But I remember quite a different feel after I cut the intake manifold in half and reshaped the inside.
if I were to do it over again, I would have did the hot side of the stock intercooler as well. But I was only running the stock turbo, so it wasn't as necessary.
also if you look back at my throttle body inlet, notice the air intake temperature sensor was placed in an area where it will not get wet from the water meth injection. This is important.
if I were to do it over again, I would have did the hot side of the stock intercooler as well. But I was only running the stock turbo, so it wasn't as necessary.
also if you look back at my throttle body inlet, notice the air intake temperature sensor was placed in an area where it will not get wet from the water meth injection. This is important.
12-10-14, 07:27 AM
#12
I got my longblock from Japan2LA almost 5 years ago. Not sure if he is still doing it, but you should be able to PM him. I haven't looked recently at who is doing it.
A word on the J-spec transmission: it has very different gearing from an A-spec transmission. Its basically like an RX-8 without 6th gear or when the swap miata 5-speed internals for an NA. All gears are evenly spaced without the large overdrive in 5th. This is spectacular for a track car (what mine is) but it sucks as you are running almost 4k RPM on the highway. I'm actually in the process of looking for a 3.9 ring for the rear end.
As for my intake setup, I have a bonez cone filter in the front bumper where the windsheild washer bottle went and 3" piping going to the turbo.
A word on the J-spec transmission: it has very different gearing from an A-spec transmission. Its basically like an RX-8 without 6th gear or when the swap miata 5-speed internals for an NA. All gears are evenly spaced without the large overdrive in 5th. This is spectacular for a track car (what mine is) but it sucks as you are running almost 4k RPM on the highway. I'm actually in the process of looking for a 3.9 ring for the rear end.
As for my intake setup, I have a bonez cone filter in the front bumper where the windsheild washer bottle went and 3" piping going to the turbo.
12-10-14, 07:45 AM
#13
I ended up finding out why it was behaving the way it was: badly configured boost controller.
The more I looked at it, the more it looked like a boost spike, so I pulled the manual on my Profec-B spec II and found I had changed the wrong setting. I cranked the duty cycle to 100% with a warning at 24 PSI to see what it would do and WOW! If I do a pull running it through 3rd then 4th, it will actually hit 19 PSI from 5k-6300 RPM then taper down to 14 PSI at 7500 in 3rd gear. Interestingly, when I shift into 4th (on the same run) it is running about 2 PSI less. I did a single 4th gear pull and got similar max numbers of 19 PSI, so I think its down to the small intercooler not being able to handle the heat as my IATs were hitting 67c.
To preface this next part, I have a j-spec transmission so it has a much shorter 5th gear, similar to Miata gearing, so I'm not going 180 to get these revs in 5th!
As an experiment, I did a 5th gear pull starting at 3k to see what would happen. The harddrive on my laptop died so I didn't get logs, but the peak on my boost gauge showed 20 PSI! I'm guessing this is because at those high speeds more air is getting crammed through the hood scoop to provide extra cooling. Also, it's still pulling REALLY strongly at 125, so I can't want to get it to the race track!
After all of this, I've given up on the stock top-mount for my application. This car is built for a road course, and its just not providing the cooling I need for that level of stress. I'm going to keep it as is for now since the winter air is proving enough cooling for me to drive it around, but come spring it will be overwhelmed. On top of this, I am getting REALLY high EGTs for someone running as much water/meth as me, and I'm pretty sure its the turbo which is overwhelmed by the bridgeport. I have bought a Masterpower T-70 with a fresh rebuild and am going to swap over to a v-mount.
All it all, its been a fun experiment, and I can still see a use for the stock top-mount with a smaller turbo on a stock-port engine, but I don't want to pop the motor because I hung on to the TMIC. I still plan on taking it to the dragstrip before I swap everything, so I will be posting up my numbers once I get them.
The more I looked at it, the more it looked like a boost spike, so I pulled the manual on my Profec-B spec II and found I had changed the wrong setting. I cranked the duty cycle to 100% with a warning at 24 PSI to see what it would do and WOW! If I do a pull running it through 3rd then 4th, it will actually hit 19 PSI from 5k-6300 RPM then taper down to 14 PSI at 7500 in 3rd gear. Interestingly, when I shift into 4th (on the same run) it is running about 2 PSI less. I did a single 4th gear pull and got similar max numbers of 19 PSI, so I think its down to the small intercooler not being able to handle the heat as my IATs were hitting 67c.
To preface this next part, I have a j-spec transmission so it has a much shorter 5th gear, similar to Miata gearing, so I'm not going 180 to get these revs in 5th!
As an experiment, I did a 5th gear pull starting at 3k to see what would happen. The harddrive on my laptop died so I didn't get logs, but the peak on my boost gauge showed 20 PSI! I'm guessing this is because at those high speeds more air is getting crammed through the hood scoop to provide extra cooling. Also, it's still pulling REALLY strongly at 125, so I can't want to get it to the race track!
After all of this, I've given up on the stock top-mount for my application. This car is built for a road course, and its just not providing the cooling I need for that level of stress. I'm going to keep it as is for now since the winter air is proving enough cooling for me to drive it around, but come spring it will be overwhelmed. On top of this, I am getting REALLY high EGTs for someone running as much water/meth as me, and I'm pretty sure its the turbo which is overwhelmed by the bridgeport. I have bought a Masterpower T-70 with a fresh rebuild and am going to swap over to a v-mount.
All it all, its been a fun experiment, and I can still see a use for the stock top-mount with a smaller turbo on a stock-port engine, but I don't want to pop the motor because I hung on to the TMIC. I still plan on taking it to the dragstrip before I swap everything, so I will be posting up my numbers once I get them.
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