fuel system question
01-10-17, 11:18 AM
#1
fuel system question
Ok I've been searching and reading for 2 days now and still don't have a solid answer..I know this topic has been discussed a million times and i have read a million threads but can't seem to find what I'm looking for..Im doing a 13bt streetport build thats e85 compatible. Im going to be running a haltech ps1000. Im in the process of deciding what fuel system upgrades need to be made. The engine will be running a BNR stage 3 hybrid turbo, so Im not currently trying to make gobs of power..really hoping to make somewhere 300+rwhp and was thinking on e85 I could prob make quite a bit more with that hybrid..If I can get over 350 id be very happy...Ive read so many opinions I'm exhausted, plus most of the threads you find are from 6 or more years ago...Its been so long since I built a 13bt I just don't have the knowledge to go with the times...
Questions:
1. planning on running FFE rails with ID850 primaries and ID2000 secondaries..will this be enough injector for my application and power goals?
2. Is running -6AN lines all around going to be enough flow or should I be running -8AN feed?
3. will the factory feed and return hard lines be a factor? I would rather not get into replacing all the hard lines under the car and building custom fuel pump covers and such.
4. just how big of a fuel pump do i really need for my application?
Honestly its just the e85 thing that throws me off.. the walbro 485 seems like a popular option. just wondering if thats a good fit for what I'm doing and if its something i can easily install with a rewire.
All the searching and reading brought the above questions to light and i just want to make sure I'm not making any stupid mistakes..i just want to keep things as simple as possible..heres the setup i was originally planning on:
Haltech PS1000 ems w/haltech FFS
FFE Fuel Rails
Fuel Lab FPR
-6AN feed and return lines
-6AN inlet/outlet e85 compatible inline fuel filter
walbro 485 fuel pump
again i wasn't planning on doing anything with the factory hardlines from tank to engine bay. with the flex fuel sensor I should be able to switch between and or mix regular premium and e85 and have the haltech automatically adjust for proper AFR delivery, so I plan on running a full tank of pump gas through every couple tanks to help clear the system out for longevity...My dad just built a 20b fd running a gtx4088R on a aem infinity ems..he is set up for e85 and watching the difference on the dyno just between 93 and e85 blew my mind. Over a 100rwhp difference, so that was the inspiration.
hopefully someone can clear things up for me..like i said threads on these topics seem to be really old and relate only to big turbo 450-600rwhp builds.
Sorry for the long post..
B
Questions:
1. planning on running FFE rails with ID850 primaries and ID2000 secondaries..will this be enough injector for my application and power goals?
2. Is running -6AN lines all around going to be enough flow or should I be running -8AN feed?
3. will the factory feed and return hard lines be a factor? I would rather not get into replacing all the hard lines under the car and building custom fuel pump covers and such.
4. just how big of a fuel pump do i really need for my application?
Honestly its just the e85 thing that throws me off.. the walbro 485 seems like a popular option. just wondering if thats a good fit for what I'm doing and if its something i can easily install with a rewire.
All the searching and reading brought the above questions to light and i just want to make sure I'm not making any stupid mistakes..i just want to keep things as simple as possible..heres the setup i was originally planning on:
Haltech PS1000 ems w/haltech FFS
FFE Fuel Rails
Fuel Lab FPR
-6AN feed and return lines
-6AN inlet/outlet e85 compatible inline fuel filter
walbro 485 fuel pump
again i wasn't planning on doing anything with the factory hardlines from tank to engine bay. with the flex fuel sensor I should be able to switch between and or mix regular premium and e85 and have the haltech automatically adjust for proper AFR delivery, so I plan on running a full tank of pump gas through every couple tanks to help clear the system out for longevity...My dad just built a 20b fd running a gtx4088R on a aem infinity ems..he is set up for e85 and watching the difference on the dyno just between 93 and e85 blew my mind. Over a 100rwhp difference, so that was the inspiration.
hopefully someone can clear things up for me..like i said threads on these topics seem to be really old and relate only to big turbo 450-600rwhp builds.
Sorry for the long post..
B
01-10-17, 12:12 PM
#2
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There is lots of good information here and I have spent a considerable amount of time reading various posts on E85 conversions and fuel system setups. Thank you to all you knowledgeable folk who are willing to write up your experiences.
I have a very tidy S5 turbo daily driver that I am looking to do some mild modifications to.
I don’t want to go crazy with after-market parts where I don’t need to and I don’t have a particular power goal in mind. Just after a nice street car that will be reliable.
It’s currently running a freshly rebuilt, street ported but otherwise stock, S5 engine with an upgraded (Bosch) fuel pump and a Haltech PS1000. Fuel pump wiring has been upgraded. I’m having issues with a stock injector leaking after the car is shutoff, flooding the front rotor when one goes to start it up after it’s been sitting for a couple of hours. Also the poor little stock HT18-2S quickly runs out of puff as the revs increase, so it’s time to upgrade.
Here is what I have in mind:
I need max 6000cc/min of fuel pump to satisfy the injectors, not that they will ever see 100% duty.
6000cc/min == 360l/hr
If, for example, it’s possible to run 20psi of boost on E85 with this injector combo, then the fuel pressure will need to be base pressure + 20psi == 54-59psi with stock fpr. This still gives me ~15psi of head room for pressure loss through the stock 5/16 lines and fuel filter before the relief valve in the fuel pump opens. At 13.5v the Walbro still flows 355l/hr at 70psi, at least on paper. From what I can gather, the pressure drop through the 5/16 hard lines should be less than 10psi at this flow rate. I’m an electronics engineer, not a mechanical, so fluid dynamics is not my strong point.
By using PWM control of the fuel pump, the larger pump won’t overwhelm the stock FPR at idle or cruise, my concern is at the other end. Any idea what the max pressure the stock FPR can handle from the pump before the regulator can’t hold pressure any more? Is it even relevant? I’m not too sure on how a rising rate FPR works, I assume the boost pressure applied to the FPR assists the spring/diaphragm in holding the bypass closed, or vice-versa in vacuum.
I’m happy to be told I’m wasting my time with the stock lines/rails/fpr, I’m going for simplicity not cost savings.
Cheers.
I have a very tidy S5 turbo daily driver that I am looking to do some mild modifications to.
I don’t want to go crazy with after-market parts where I don’t need to and I don’t have a particular power goal in mind. Just after a nice street car that will be reliable.
It’s currently running a freshly rebuilt, street ported but otherwise stock, S5 engine with an upgraded (Bosch) fuel pump and a Haltech PS1000. Fuel pump wiring has been upgraded. I’m having issues with a stock injector leaking after the car is shutoff, flooding the front rotor when one goes to start it up after it’s been sitting for a couple of hours. Also the poor little stock HT18-2S quickly runs out of puff as the revs increase, so it’s time to upgrade.
Here is what I have in mind:
- Walbro F90000267 E85 fuel pump PWM controlled by ECU
- Gates E85 (submersible, 100psi) EFI hose to replace all rubber fuel hoses
- Stock send and return hard lines
- Bosch E85 compatible 5micron filter
- ID1300 primary and ID1700 secondary injectors
- Stock fuel rails and FPR
- Honeywell fuel pressure sender
- Flex fuel sensor
- BW EFR7670 IWG (eventually)
I need max 6000cc/min of fuel pump to satisfy the injectors, not that they will ever see 100% duty.
6000cc/min == 360l/hr
If, for example, it’s possible to run 20psi of boost on E85 with this injector combo, then the fuel pressure will need to be base pressure + 20psi == 54-59psi with stock fpr. This still gives me ~15psi of head room for pressure loss through the stock 5/16 lines and fuel filter before the relief valve in the fuel pump opens. At 13.5v the Walbro still flows 355l/hr at 70psi, at least on paper. From what I can gather, the pressure drop through the 5/16 hard lines should be less than 10psi at this flow rate. I’m an electronics engineer, not a mechanical, so fluid dynamics is not my strong point.
By using PWM control of the fuel pump, the larger pump won’t overwhelm the stock FPR at idle or cruise, my concern is at the other end. Any idea what the max pressure the stock FPR can handle from the pump before the regulator can’t hold pressure any more? Is it even relevant? I’m not too sure on how a rising rate FPR works, I assume the boost pressure applied to the FPR assists the spring/diaphragm in holding the bypass closed, or vice-versa in vacuum.
I’m happy to be told I’m wasting my time with the stock lines/rails/fpr, I’m going for simplicity not cost savings.
Cheers.
01-10-17, 07:21 PM
#4
Originally Posted by TII777
Ok I've been searching and reading for 2 days now and still don't have a solid answer..I know this topic has been discussed a million times and i have read a million threads but can't seem to find what I'm looking for..Im doing a 13bt streetport build thats e85 compatible. Im going to be running a haltech ps1000. Im in the process of deciding what fuel system upgrades need to be made. The engine will be running a BNR stage 3 hybrid turbo, so Im not currently trying to make gobs of power..really hoping to make somewhere 300+rwhp and was thinking on e85 I could prob make quite a bit more with that hybrid..If I can get over 350 id be very happy...Ive read so many opinions I'm exhausted, plus most of the threads you find are from 6 or more years ago...Its been so long since I built a 13bt I just don't have the knowledge to go with the times...
Questions:
1. planning on running FFE rails with ID850 primaries and ID2000 secondaries..will this be enough injector for my application and power goals?
2. Is running -6AN lines all around going to be enough flow or should I be running -8AN feed?
3. will the factory feed and return hard lines be a factor? I would rather not get into replacing all the hard lines under the car and building custom fuel pump covers and such.
4. just how big of a fuel pump do i really need for my application?
Honestly its just the e85 thing that throws me off.. the walbro 485 seems like a popular option. just wondering if thats a good fit for what I'm doing and if its something i can easily install with a rewire.
All the searching and reading brought the above questions to light and i just want to make sure I'm not making any stupid mistakes..i just want to keep things as simple as possible..heres the setup i was originally planning on:
Haltech PS1000 ems w/haltech FFS
FFE Fuel Rails
Fuel Lab FPR
-6AN feed and return lines
-6AN inlet/outlet e85 compatible inline fuel filter
walbro 485 fuel pump
again i wasn't planning on doing anything with the factory hardlines from tank to engine bay. with the flex fuel sensor I should be able to switch between and or mix regular premium and e85 and have the haltech automatically adjust for proper AFR delivery, so I plan on running a full tank of pump gas through every couple tanks to help clear the system out for longevity...My dad just built a 20b fd running a gtx4088R on a aem infinity ems..he is set up for e85 and watching the difference on the dyno just between 93 and e85 blew my mind. Over a 100rwhp difference, so that was the inspiration.
hopefully someone can clear things up for me..like i said threads on these topics seem to be really old and relate only to big turbo 450-600rwhp builds.
Sorry for the long post..
B
Questions:
1. planning on running FFE rails with ID850 primaries and ID2000 secondaries..will this be enough injector for my application and power goals?
2. Is running -6AN lines all around going to be enough flow or should I be running -8AN feed?
3. will the factory feed and return hard lines be a factor? I would rather not get into replacing all the hard lines under the car and building custom fuel pump covers and such.
4. just how big of a fuel pump do i really need for my application?
Honestly its just the e85 thing that throws me off.. the walbro 485 seems like a popular option. just wondering if thats a good fit for what I'm doing and if its something i can easily install with a rewire.
All the searching and reading brought the above questions to light and i just want to make sure I'm not making any stupid mistakes..i just want to keep things as simple as possible..heres the setup i was originally planning on:
Haltech PS1000 ems w/haltech FFS
FFE Fuel Rails
Fuel Lab FPR
-6AN feed and return lines
-6AN inlet/outlet e85 compatible inline fuel filter
walbro 485 fuel pump
again i wasn't planning on doing anything with the factory hardlines from tank to engine bay. with the flex fuel sensor I should be able to switch between and or mix regular premium and e85 and have the haltech automatically adjust for proper AFR delivery, so I plan on running a full tank of pump gas through every couple tanks to help clear the system out for longevity...My dad just built a 20b fd running a gtx4088R on a aem infinity ems..he is set up for e85 and watching the difference on the dyno just between 93 and e85 blew my mind. Over a 100rwhp difference, so that was the inspiration.
hopefully someone can clear things up for me..like i said threads on these topics seem to be really old and relate only to big turbo 450-600rwhp builds.
Sorry for the long post..
B
Yes you have enough injector.
-6an is appropriate for this, and more.
There's nothing wrong with your factory hardlines. You can make well over 100whp more than what your goal is before even considering that to be a problem.
Whatever the current Walbro e85 compatible in-tank pump is will be fine. Last I knew it was a 460, haven't seen this 485, but it's more than enough.
01-10-17, 10:08 PM
#5
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I made 357 on stock hard lines and a Wally 255....and I could have got more but why when it's street car and I would never see it..well "unless"..
(Haltech 1000 with 1000/2000 cc overkill fuel system)
(Haltech 1000 with 1000/2000 cc overkill fuel system)