E85?
12-21-12, 10:04 AM
#26
Just for reference, this is a pretty plain English description of system design requirements and functionality involving Flex Fuel systems and E85.
http://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/view...text=auto_pres
http://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/view...text=auto_pres
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Relisys190 (06-15-22)
12-26-12, 04:57 PM
#35
Also you can get 2000cc injectors from FiveOmotorsports for 150 a piece.
Braided ethanol rated hose for approx $4 per ft.
Stealth 340 for approx $150 a piece also ethanol rated
Misc fittings
Fuel cell maybe not necessary. 1980s, automakers made vehicles with fuel systems to be ethanol and rust tolerant. Gas tanks began to contain polymers and Teflon which are extremely durable
I dont really see how you can spent 5k or 6k on a fuel setup. Can you enlighten me please.
12-27-12, 11:12 AM
#39
Very nice looking system - done right too!
Few of questions: How larger is the fuel cell? Did you fabricate it yourself or was it a stock item and then adapted to fit? Does it have a baffled pickup area? Do you run pre-mix with E85? Do you run a Flex Fuel sensor so that you know the real percentages and if so what ECU do you run?
Glad someone out there knows what it takes to run a "proper" setup for E85.
Few of questions: How larger is the fuel cell? Did you fabricate it yourself or was it a stock item and then adapted to fit? Does it have a baffled pickup area? Do you run pre-mix with E85? Do you run a Flex Fuel sensor so that you know the real percentages and if so what ECU do you run?
Glad someone out there knows what it takes to run a "proper" setup for E85.
12-27-12, 12:48 PM
#41
I'm not sure anything will convince you, but I've had experience converting a vehicle to E85, and it does require you to rethink the entire fuel system.
Some food for thought on why the stock system may not handle E85 in the long term:
The EPA just approved an allowance for states to up E10 to E15 for model year 2001 and later vehicles-
The New Ethanol Blend May Damage Your Vehicle - Slashdot
Turns out a lot of manufacturers are against this since there are no studies indicating how moving to E15 will affect the longevity of modem vehicles. Now you probably have 100 and 1 conspiracy theories on why the manufactures would be against this, but I'm thinking if the companies which have a vested interest in designing a reliable vehicle are concerned that their state of the art products cannot handle 15% ethanol, why should I think a thirty year old vehicle would handle 85% ethanol just fine with mostly OEM parts?
Although you are under no obligation to do so, I think you should detail everything you've done to run E85. Basically if you are so convinced you've done it right, allow others to fully scrutinize you setup. You've hinted at some key parts, looks like stainless steel hard-lines, maybe 3/8th ID, but some of the details are missing like how are you handling variability in E85, which is not guaranteed to have exactly 85% ethanol content? On a boosted track car, I would think that is important to getting every last little bit of power out of your setup.
Some food for thought on why the stock system may not handle E85 in the long term:
The EPA just approved an allowance for states to up E10 to E15 for model year 2001 and later vehicles-
The New Ethanol Blend May Damage Your Vehicle - Slashdot
Turns out a lot of manufacturers are against this since there are no studies indicating how moving to E15 will affect the longevity of modem vehicles. Now you probably have 100 and 1 conspiracy theories on why the manufactures would be against this, but I'm thinking if the companies which have a vested interest in designing a reliable vehicle are concerned that their state of the art products cannot handle 15% ethanol, why should I think a thirty year old vehicle would handle 85% ethanol just fine with mostly OEM parts?
Although you are under no obligation to do so, I think you should detail everything you've done to run E85. Basically if you are so convinced you've done it right, allow others to fully scrutinize you setup. You've hinted at some key parts, looks like stainless steel hard-lines, maybe 3/8th ID, but some of the details are missing like how are you handling variability in E85, which is not guaranteed to have exactly 85% ethanol content? On a boosted track car, I would think that is important to getting every last little bit of power out of your setup.
12-27-12, 02:24 PM
#42
I'm on a cell phone right now.. Its hard to post pics and type out a list of stuff that I have done.
I can start by Explaining the fuel cell. The fuel cell is 14.5 gallons and does have a baffle system in it. The tank is a custom to fit in the factory postion. Its has 4 trap doors and a return baffle system. I'm using the aeromotive stealth in tank fuel pump. I'm also using a fuel safe rollover check valve and E85 fuel sender. The fuel line feeding is ss -10 and -8 return. The injectors are Id 2200cc. As for the engine bay, All line are -8 teflon lines. Not Cheap! Custom fuel rails made by Super now. I'll post more tonight when I get home.
Thanks Robert
I can start by Explaining the fuel cell. The fuel cell is 14.5 gallons and does have a baffle system in it. The tank is a custom to fit in the factory postion. Its has 4 trap doors and a return baffle system. I'm using the aeromotive stealth in tank fuel pump. I'm also using a fuel safe rollover check valve and E85 fuel sender. The fuel line feeding is ss -10 and -8 return. The injectors are Id 2200cc. As for the engine bay, All line are -8 teflon lines. Not Cheap! Custom fuel rails made by Super now. I'll post more tonight when I get home.
Thanks Robert
12-27-12, 02:33 PM
#43
I'm not using a Flex fuel sensor. I can with my Haltech P1000... I decided to us this analyzer.
Zeitronix ECA : SEMA Award Winning Ethanol Content Analyzer and Flex Fuel Sensor for E-85 and E-85/gasoline Blends
Its easy to add methnol... We tuned the car on e78.. That's what the analyzer said... As for premix I use castor 927.
Zeitronix ECA : SEMA Award Winning Ethanol Content Analyzer and Flex Fuel Sensor for E-85 and E-85/gasoline Blends
Its easy to add methnol... We tuned the car on e78.. That's what the analyzer said... As for premix I use castor 927.
12-27-12, 05:52 PM
#45
I don't own an FC that why I said maybe on the fuel cell. So im keeping my OEM tank, teflon lines feed/return, flex fuel sensor, and 4x2000cc injectors and dual aeromotive 340's. Just becuase you pay more doesn't always means is "right" and only way to do it.
12-27-12, 06:42 PM
#47
I'm not using a Flex fuel sensor. I can with my Haltech P1000... I decided to us this analyzer.
Zeitronix ECA : SEMA Award Winning Ethanol Content Analyzer and Flex Fuel Sensor for E-85 and E-85/gasoline Blends
Its easy to add methnol... We tuned the car on e78.. That's what the analyzer said... As for premix I use castor 927.
Zeitronix ECA : SEMA Award Winning Ethanol Content Analyzer and Flex Fuel Sensor for E-85 and E-85/gasoline Blends
Its easy to add methnol... We tuned the car on e78.. That's what the analyzer said... As for premix I use castor 927.
12-27-12, 06:45 PM
#48
I'm not sure anything will convince you, but I've had experience converting a vehicle to E85, and it does require you to rethink the entire fuel system.
Some food for thought on why the stock system may not handle E85 in the long term:
The EPA just approved an allowance for states to up E10 to E15 for model year 2001 and later vehicles-
The New Ethanol Blend May Damage Your Vehicle - Slashdot
Turns out a lot of manufacturers are against this since there are no studies indicating how moving to E15 will affect the longevity of modem vehicles. Now you probably have 100 and 1 conspiracy theories on why the manufactures would be against this, but I'm thinking if the companies which have a vested interest in designing a reliable vehicle are concerned that their state of the art products cannot handle 15% ethanol, why should I think a thirty year old vehicle would handle 85% ethanol just fine with mostly OEM parts?
Some food for thought on why the stock system may not handle E85 in the long term:
The EPA just approved an allowance for states to up E10 to E15 for model year 2001 and later vehicles-
The New Ethanol Blend May Damage Your Vehicle - Slashdot
Turns out a lot of manufacturers are against this since there are no studies indicating how moving to E15 will affect the longevity of modem vehicles. Now you probably have 100 and 1 conspiracy theories on why the manufactures would be against this, but I'm thinking if the companies which have a vested interest in designing a reliable vehicle are concerned that their state of the art products cannot handle 15% ethanol, why should I think a thirty year old vehicle would handle 85% ethanol just fine with mostly OEM parts?
1) you are beginning to get to a point of no return on the capacity of ECU's fuel mapping's ability to adapt
2) the narrow band width of the O2 sensor
3) the fuel's additional conductivity
4) the added corrosive nature on both the susceptible metals and polymers
5) the added volume requirements of the fuel vs. the system designs parameters
6) not to mention the evaporative system capabilities
The old assumption that if this much is good and more is better is not is almost never the case. The uneducated politicians / bureaucratic are making decisions that should be best left to the engineers. If not, you are going to end up with something like the low volume 1.6 gallon per flush toilets.
12-27-12, 08:30 PM
#50
from what I've seen with mates running E85 and ID injectors I would avoid using them. ID style injectors just gumm up and eventually become blocked causing engine failures and headaches, use the older style indy blues and no problems.
for the record in my E85 setup I run OEM tank with old 910 as lift, custom stainless surge feeding A1000, stainless mesh pre and post filters, 4 x indy blue all connected using speedflow fittings and hose, use castrol R30 as premix at 100:1 ratio, pics in my build thread if you want to have a suss.
for the record in my E85 setup I run OEM tank with old 910 as lift, custom stainless surge feeding A1000, stainless mesh pre and post filters, 4 x indy blue all connected using speedflow fittings and hose, use castrol R30 as premix at 100:1 ratio, pics in my build thread if you want to have a suss.
