ZoomZoomZoom

OK, I have been reading all about the ATF trick and have decided to try it out. This was after I found out that my 6-ports were frozen up. I have tore down the engine to the lower intake, dumped about 1 quart into the intake and 6-port area and have been turning the engine once a day. The 6-ports are still stuck but are a little bit loose so maybe in a couple of days. I am going to replace all hoses and just wanted to know if there was anything else I could or should do while I have it tore down(like porting or other things)
Thanks!

Sniper_X

I have found that the ports will not unfreeze using this method.

Whats more, let me show you what in your engie and sticking your ports and you'll run out to the garage and rip that lower intake off right now...

-> Check out the pictures in this post <-

You see, this only works on the apex seals because the amount of carbon needed to stick a seal is small.

What you have is what I have....

Check out the pictures.

Have the intake cleaned and new shats and bushings pressed in.
The resuting power spike is amazing.

I'm glad i did it.

When you click on the link, check out other pictures by browsing the directory stucture a bit for more.

Dave777

Sniper, when you say "have the intake cleaned and new shafts and bushings pushed in", are you saying that you have a shop do this or that you just clean up the parts and put them back in? What is the best way to clean them?

Sniper_X

I took mine to a shop, but i dissassembled it all again after it came back.

Now I know what to do.

Remove the intake, get a tub (thats impervious to parts cleaner) and soak the intake for 24 hours or more.

Remove the GUNK that you saw in the picture.

Remove the port sleeves and soak them at the same time.

Use gasket remover (or the most caustic stuff you can) to clean the intake ports in the block.

Remove the bolts and screws for the auctuator shafts and remove the shafts. DONT TAP ON THE ENDS OF THEM!

There is a "C" shaped waher that you will dent of you do.
If you dent the washer bang on it on a smooth flat hard cement floor until you reshape it perfectly flat,

there is also a regular washer under that.

But you have to remove the shafts by pulling and wiggling to get them out.

Just make sure the internal part of the shaft (the springy end) is C L E A N before you pull.

And dont rip off the armature head!

You can get away with re-using all your old parts IF you can get them all SURGICALLY clean.

(like i do with all me re-used parts)

After its all done, the shafts should flop around with the slightest pinky push.

Just remember the car pushes them with 1.5lbs of force.

But I like 'em SMOOOOOOOTH.

And mine are. WHOOOO HOOOO!

ZoomZoomZoom

Hey Sniper-X. You were right. Those 6-port sleeves will not come unstuck. I went ahead and unbolted the lower intake(found a possible air leak that was causing my idle problem) and tried to take the sleeves out. NO-GO!!! They would not even budge with pliers(but I did not twist hard as I did not want to break anythin) How in the heck do you get those babies out of there?!?

Sniper_X

Actually I was referring to the SHAFTS of the actuators.

But you have a worse condition than I had!!!

I say!.... DONT STRIKE THE SHAFT OF THE SLEEVE....

Here's an Idea that i'm thinking of as I write this......

You have to place back and forth twisting action at the ENDS (base) of the sleeve shaft otherwise you risk bending the sleeve shaft.

NO MORE PLIERS!!!

Get a hard wooden DOWEL the same size as, (or shave it to), the shape of the INNER diameter of the sleeve.

NO SMALLER!

Place a notch in the end of the dowel running right through the middle of the dowel and make the notch exactly (if not a millimeter skinnier than) the sleeve shaft at it widest points (the base of each end).

Drill a hole straight through the other end of the dowel about 1 inch from the end so that you dont split it later.

Soak the sleeve in carb cleaner for about 4-5 minutes.

Tap the notched end into the sleeve and fit it FIRMLY in the sleeve and against the sleeve shaft.

Make sure it travels into the sleeve at least 1/2 to 3/4 inch. (make the notch this deep and the outer diameter of the dowel should run long enough to allow this depth. whittle the dowel if you have to.)

Then put a LONG - STRONG shaft of a big screwdriver through the hole at the other end of the dowel.

(make sure the hole is drilled at an angle to the notch so that it allows you to put the screwdriver in horizontally so you can lean/pull on it.)

With the carb cleaner doing most of the work, NOT YOUR MUSCLES, rock the sleeve back and forth. Dont mistake the compression and subsequent movement of the dowel for sleeve movement!!!!

When you are succeeding, you WILL hear a grinding/crunching noise.

Work slowly and then remove the dowel... then the sleeve.

Clean everything so clean you could eat off of it.

Get a long bushy brass brush and go to work.

Like plaque, if you leave ANY carbon, more will stick to it quickly.

At least on bare metal, you have a chance of maintaining the engine cleanliness.

Thisis my stroke of genius for the week.
I think i'll sleep now.

Sniper_X
Always Tinkering

ZoomZoomZoom

UPDATE:
I finally got those darned 6-port sleeves loose and out of the engine. I tried the wooden dowel but it would not work. I finally got fed up with it and (get this) used a 13mm craftsman wrench and put the open end into the sleeve and put a breaker bar into the box end. I then turned it as hard as I could. The front one broke loose after about a half an hour and with a lot of carb cleaner. The back one was a little bit more stubborn and took about an hour to just get it to move and then about a half an hour to get it out. I thought at first I was actually bending the wrench because I was twisting so hard but it was moving.
No harm was done to the sleeves or engine(big sigh of relief) and now I am in the process of cleaning up the parts and engine compartment and getting ready to put it all back together. I will post lots of before and after pics when I am finished.

Ryde _Or_Die

I have a question about doing the ATF trick....is there a limit to how much ATF you can put in the engine? You can out it in all the plug holes correct? And you need to turn the key over every once in a while to get the ATF going everywhere right? Am I missing anything. I really can't afford to mess up my car. Thanks.

Dave777

Ryde, People have been putting varying amounts in, I think sniper was the one who filled his up through the lower intake (and pumped it out later?) Anyway it is safe to use 1/4 to I'm guessing half a court between the rotars. Either hole opens into the chamber so I don't think that matters (i used the trailing, top, holes out of laziness). I used an oil pump can with a 2' long hose of some kind I found at the store.

I also found it much easier to take the fan off and turn the eccentric shaft nut to rotate the motor, no need to bump the starter all the time. This way you can turn the motor right where you want it. (can turn it backwards too easily)

When you are done with the soak, you can take all the plugs out and rotate the motor to push out excess fluid. I think it is important to get most of it out, with too much left it may not start. (but havn't tried it, it may start anyway) The atf won't hurt anything, it just may make it difficult to start.

I just had some interesting results with this, as I just finished up my first atf treatment yesterday with a burn off drive. And guess what? I HAD TO WALK MY *** BACK HOME!! I think my motor bit the dust. Still investigating. (BTW 111k on motor, 89 gxl, no known problems,bought recently)

I was driving back through my neighborhood after a 15 minute drive, going about 20mph and it just all of a sudden stumbled and died. Would not restart.
When I turn the key to on all the idiot lights come on and just stay on, they don't turn off. Nothing was obviously wrong in the engine compartment. I tried reseting the computer. I restarted it a couple hours later but it sounded so rough I shut it back down. Trailing plugs look ok, havn't done a compression test on it yet. I don't know what's wrong. If anyone has any idea please let me know.

I wondered if maybe the atf loosened up a seal (apex?) that was allready in bad shape. I don't know just speculating. Hopefully some minor little thing easily fixed right You're not supposed to be able to mess up your car with an atf treatment, but I managed to find a way.

Sniper_X

I removed the exhaust downpipe, put a bucket under it and the plug holes and wached as I rotated the engine and BLACKNESS CAME OUT. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Sorry to hear of the engine biting it, sounds nasty. I dont understand ALL the idiot light coming on. do you me AL Lif them?! could be electrical. You might have eaten a seal. (I hear they are tasty, but passe to kill)

Suparslinc

I'd like to find out who said that ATF would fix your aux. ports; so I could tar and feather him.

Sniper_X

I said it "COULD".

and it CAN if your problem is a stuck port sleeve, but my shafts were stuck, so were the others I spoke to.

Apparently these cars produce much more carbon than i have ever seen in any other engine. I had no idea!

Filling the engine with ATF, cant hurt it, (unless you turn over the engine with the plugs in it and full of ATF).

This puts a intense anoutn of detergents in the engine and afre a week of soaking should do what I experienced.....

Shiny rotors and clean apex seals!

I can only imagine that can help.

But its highly unneccisary to do this, the original method is best for most.

Especially if you are rebuilding and cleaning the intake and port areas.

Ryde _Or_Die

I have read alot of posts but still have 3 main questions:

1) So do you have to drain the ATF somehow before you start it?

2)How do you turn the engine over to get the ATF everywhere while it sits?

3) When do you change the plugs? After you have started the car for about 10 mins or so right?


Thanks to anyone who answers my questions.

Dave777

Ryde,

1. Yes you should try to get as much out as you can before you start it. Less to burn off. You can do this by removing all the plugs and turning the motor over with the eccentric shaft nut, or by bumping the starter if you prefer. (take out fuel circuit/egi fuse first) The rotors should push excess fluid out, and some will collect in the exhaust anyway.

2. The atf will pool in the bottom, so you can periodically rotate the motor (by same methods listed above) so each apex spends some time at the base. Rotate in roughly 120 degree (1/3rd) increments, depending on which rotor you start with. If you don't want to worry about being exact just rotate it in thirds.

3. You should try to burn the atf completely out with the old plugs, so wait until after your burn off drive or until it is no longer smoking. The plugs may get so badly fouled that it won't run well, so then you gotta change them anyway. (could try to clean them too I guess)

BTW, my online master rotary consultant, aka Keith, aka Irv, suggested a charging/alternator problem as the possible cause of my recent rotary failure. Apparently the idiot lights are wired into the charge light circuit, so they will all light up if there is a charging problem. Something to that effect anyway. Still checking.

Sniper, meant to ask you, when you filled up your motor with atf, did a bunch not leak out your exhaust ports? Did you rotate the motor at all or just let it sit in that one position? Seems like with that much you could get into some fluid lock problems.

Ryde _Or_Die

Back to question #2, hehe...

How exactly do you rotate the engine? What is the best method? Can I just turn the key with the EGI fuse out? Or I have heard of pushing the car while its in 5th gear(don't know you would do that) or what? Thanks again.

Dave777

Ryde, Sorry if I'm not being clear enough. I think the best way is to rotate the motor is by the eccectric shaft bolt. You get to this by first removing the fan. 4 nuts, 10mm I think. After that's out you should be able to feel a 19mm bolt head in the center of the main pulley/eccentric shaft hub. Stick a ratchet on there and you can very easily turn the motor over forward and back. This way you don't have to mess with moving the car backwards in 5th, or bumping the starter or pulling on accessory belts, and it's easy to turn it right where you want it. Again, to me this is easiest.

On the egi fuse, yeah you should be able to just pull the fuse out and then crank it over.(if I'm missing something on that someone else chime in) Just be sure you don't have a ton of atf in the chamber. If you are feeling unsure about it just use a moderate dose, around 1/4 of a quart or so between both rotors. (~1/8th qt per rotor)

Suparslinc

Here is why I don't think ATF could possibly unfreeze the auxilary ports.
Looking at the shop manual blow up for the intake system, you can see that the rods have ends, and when in the ports they will not allow the ATF to penetrated past the end. So all you will be doing it getting ATF of the very back side of them.
And by the way, the ATF is supposed to burn off the carbon deposits when you start the car. When you have ATF in my intake manifold, true it will loosed the sludge, but its looses most of its effectiveness because its not getting burnt. No compression, no combustion, nothing there to burn the sludge and force it out!

Sniper_X

It's hard to explaing this if you havent held them in your hands.
You need to actually hold the peices and see how the work with your hands to see this, but i'll try to explain more...

Actually the "ends" dont have the problem that you see.

The are forked to slide over the shafts of the ports.

The ports are holow and have a shaft traversing the open end and when you turn this sleeve it rotates to open a hole in the sleeve to the intake.

please see the pictures of my work here.

Yes, the fluid does fill the intake, but you can flush this with carb cleaner immidiately after you drain the engine.

To answer a earlier question, yes, I rotate the engine, but mark the main pully so that i know where each rotor is on its intake stroke.

This way I rest the fluid against an open intake port and then with the plugs out, rotate it over by one face.

I have to alternate rotors because they are out of phase 180 degrees, but it works out. fludin come out the plug holes and the exhaust as I rotate.

I remove my downpipe and cat too and put a bucket under the exhaust and attach compression testing mipples in the plug holes, from there i run hoses from the fittings to the buket and no ATF is on the floor!

Sniper_X
Always tinkering

Suparslinc

Thats right Sniper, dont' know what I was thinking there.
The sleeves ARE hollow at the end.
FYI I did pretty much everything your talking about this past summer. So no need to explain. The front most sleeve was frozen up. I had to buy a new rod because I twisted the end off trying to turn it.
But I still disagree with atf unlocking the sleeve. the rods dont' freeze up; the sleeves do. If your aux ports dont' work, its either the actuator or a stuck sleeve; the rod doesn't fail. And ATF won't really help either of these; you have to get in there and clean it all with an engine brush.

Sniper_X

Err.


yes.

Yes they do.

Boy HOWDY do they lock up.
I know mine did. ATF wont solve this, but the sleeves might free up with ATF.

I did it on my 1st and 2nd 1991 NA coupe