C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

If your spark timing is off, vacuum will be low. I think you still need to confirm spark synch. Hard to tell in the last video, but it sounds flat to me. Like timing is badly retarded. Very hard to tell though. In any event, you need to make absolutely certain you've found TDC and your ignition timing is not a best guess before you start leaning on it.

Monsterbox

iTrader: (6)

You're right in that it feels flat. It wants to die so easily, in fact I added too much fuel and killed it. Restarted it and it ran on one rotor at -5in/hg. So it ignition has alot to do with vaccuum its easily just fouled plugs, these things were BLACK

I'm going to try brand new plugs again today. NGK should sponsor me at this point.

I have verified that each leading and trailing fires on their respective 0, 120, 240 markings on crank pulley.

I will double check TDC.

Banzai-Racing

iTrader: (11)

I just put my Greddy Spec II into kpa mode, since I always have it in psi, cold at 2000 rpm it reads -.65 kpa x 100 = -65 kpa, Defi boost gauge reads -20 in/hg

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

in lieu if actually checking the crank to verify timing, you can run the ignition overall trim up and down to see if the engine peps up. Keep in mind, this would be a stop gap to get the thing running decent enough to idle and not kill plugs and help you trouble shoot the rest of your issues. If it were me though, I would stop everything else until you confirm crank position. You're pissing into the wind right now without being absolutely sure.

Monsterbox

iTrader: (6)

I'm just going to do a compression test. Vacuum is way to low and I need to rule out low compression or else everything is pissing in the wind.

Monsterbox

iTrader: (6)

Compression with valve removed @ approx 100psi each face cold @ 250rpm

Verified crank position

About to try starting it w new plugs

bumpstart

good, now get us a some relevant data, ( or screenshots )
like what the hell is your injection period in ms while it idles

BLACK MAMBA

iTrader: (58)

Can you log cranking and idle.

bumpstart

cold cranking is a bit harder to quantify

on ecus that drop out of sequential operation while cranking ( ie group fire ) and have equal sized injectors
cranking injector time will typically be about 4 X the warmed idle time

when you have such large injectors for secondaries it complicates the math

you may need to shoot a message to andy to find out if this ecu drops to all injectors and only leading spark
while under the cranking speed thresholds before we can do quick math to find the injection volume for cranking

ie.. a microtech on a stock 13bt will be using about 10 ms on cold cranking
it has 4 x 550 injectors , and the realtime idle value onscreen is usually 2.3 ms when warmed
( note with microtech,, that 2.3 ms is the realtime value,, made from the the lookup table value + the staging % value )
whilst cranking the microtech injects fuel on all injectors and fires only leading plugs,,

similar happens on the ( older ) haltechs ,, where once past the crankspeed setpoint,, injectors drop back into the staged setup,, and all coils operate

PS.. also confirm the wiring pin outs to the injectors is all good
as this problem may be as simple as having one or all of the primary and secondary injector pinouts back to front

Monsterbox

iTrader: (6)

Good News!!!

Well, it seems that the primary issue is this damn oil in the motor kept fouling the plugs in a matter of seconds. I'm positive its oil, as when the cars running its shooting black oil droplets out of the tailpipe

Anyhow, after ANOTHER set of brand new plugs, we were able to fire it up and confirm spark on ALL 6! I took it up to 180F and drove it around the neighborhood a few miles! With a NEW set, it started up in a matter of 2-3 seconds.

I set the idle by preloading the throttle cable to 1300rpm and its settled in around 17inch/hg vacuum finally! Once its warms up, the AFR settles in at this RPM around 12.8.

Car keeps misfiring and in/out of rough running here and there, but I'm 100% sure its spark fouling as after shutting her down, 2 trailing plugs were already fouled to the point of not firing (oil fouled). I think another set of plugs and a few more miles and all the hiccups will be gone.


BAD NEWS:

After the short drive, sure enough, the f*ing middle runner is red hot again!

At this point, I'm suspecting its a vacuum leak causing a lean mixture somehow to the middle runner.

I noticed that the airpump pipe attachment location on the rear of the UIM is sucking some serious vacuum. Apparently, on the 20b this location DOES cause a leak if not blocked off. If I plug it with my finger, it does not change my vacuum readout, but the exhaust sounds noticeably quieter. I don't know if this is a contribution or not, but certainly if this open air source can somehow feed air into the exhaust ports then this may be the problem. I will make a block off plate today!

Conclusion:
Looks like all we have left is to tackle this middle runner issue and it should be road worthy.

Andy has been extremely helpful and doing the best he can from such a distance. He's been on top of the tuning and data logs that I've sent, very knowledgeable. Looking forward to him tuning this car in a few weeks!

I want to thank everyone in this thread for all of the effort in trying to get this car running. Its actually pretty fun hearing all the different opinions/ideas from people who have been here before.

Monsterbox

iTrader: (6)

Hey Bumpstart,

This ECU fires on all coils during cranking. I have triple checked the wiring to every coil and injector. I've also verified that each color is correctly pinned on the ECU connector. I've confirmed the grounds to each coil, power to each injector, power to each coil, and that each injector clicks properly with CAS signal.

I do not have the log with me today, but when I'm back at the car/laptop I'll try to see the ms value at 1300rpm idle.

Andy has been on top of the basemap 100% of the way, Im fairly certain everything on the ECU side is setup correctly. Now, if only I can get to bottom of this red runner then we are in business!



I'm not sure if its premature, but I may try swapping the center primary and center secondary injectors with the rear primary/rear secondary and see if the glowing runner changes.

bumpstart

the exhaust is blowing backwards up the pipe via the crossovers under the primary port

same happens on all the 13bs with the horizontal rear of manifold ACV position

usually , under that blanking plate,, you have to remove the round diaphragm
and fill the small void with a bit of RTV as there is usually small routes to the primary ports under there

tears in the diaphragm in stock 13bs are notorious for causing some very poor idle characteristics

Monsterbox

iTrader: (6)

I resealed the block-off plate using a gasket cut to the full face, and a RTV copper around the sufaces of the manifold side. It seems to have helped as idle dropped from around 1100 to around 900.


With new plugs, the engine still fouls them instantly and its still popping unless I add even more fuel. Seems like the runner isn't going red as easily. It just does not want to lean out at all at idle. My 02 sensor is DEFINITELY got to be fouled out as well, prob showing leaner then true value



Looking to timing,

500 to 1500rpm is around 14-16* advance on Leading and trailing follows with 8* split.

I'm going to try pulling the timing back closer to factory. On my last motor it ran great under 1500rpm at ~5* advance with 10* split. So 5L and -5T.

Do you think its possible timing is too advanced at idle, causing the popping and higher EGT from leaner mixture? If we pull the timing back and stop the misfiring, add a little fuel, it may not foul plugs as bad and lower EGT from richer mixture?

The car is able to handle around 1000rpm right now

Monsterbox

iTrader: (6)

For future searchers,
The split air tube connection will NOT LEAK as long as you have the ACV blocked off properly.

mannykiller

iTrader: (93)

I wouldn't start the car again until you figure out whats going on with the IGN/Timing. Theres a serious problem if that middle runner is glowing red... If you keep that up..your going to damage the engine. I know you want to drive it and hear it..but you've got to be patient otherwise you'll end up having to rebuild the engine.

I would hate to see this beauty block get damaged....Something in the wiring HAS to be off.... From my experience a VAC leak isn't going to create a problem such as a glowing Red runner. Theres either something wrong with the Wiring Plugs in the wrong L/T position,..coils incorrectly wired, etc... (which is where my attention would be if it were my car) OR something blocking the Middle runner (highly unlikely...but never say never). Even if you've checked multiple times.... You've got to find the problem again before you start it again. And STOP driving it. Only a matter of time until you damage something from that Heat!!...and whatever you damage isn't going to be a quick fix...such as swapping plugs... or switching plug wires.. Its going to require a rebuild.. which means pulling the engine, paying for shipping/Labor/Rebuild parts/The time it will take to rebuild..... I want to see this beauty run!!! so Be careful...take a step back and re evaluate the situation. You'll find the problem... I just don't want you to learn the hard way.

Monsterbox

iTrader: (6)

All of your points are well received and you're right it would be demoralizing to blow the engine.

Unfortunately, Iv now checked the trigger wires, the grounds, the power, the clips etc to all coils, injectors, and CAS and all the way too the ecu and its pin out itself. Multiple times. If I knew it was the harness, I'd redo the entire thing.

I have also confirmed spark on each of the 6 plugs in correct firing order AND crank position.

The only thing I have not checked, is timing scatter. But, I'd have to run the motor to check.

The only thing I can possibly think of is its the tuning needing adjustment.

There's one thing Im entirely sure of; the plugs foul instantly, every time. All of them, and equally. So, without a doubt there is too much fuel or my spark is way to weak at running.

I would like to try starting the engine with this vacc leak now fixed, and pull the idle timing way back and see how lean I can get the car until it drops idle/vac. At this point, ill let it run until I see red runner. If I do see red, I can add individual fuel or subtract directly to that runner to see if it changes the condition. At this point, if we have no luck, then ill just wait and see what Andy thinks when he arrives.

bumpstart

if andy is coming in person then you should try not to drive the engine
though i do not see too much harm in trying to sort the idle

i also suspect either leading / trailing is mixed up on the pinouts
.. or perhaps at least one of those 1600's is mixed in with primary injector wiring

the other consideration is you may have faulty injectors
,, or ( without now pics ) you have added an external reg to the original and are only measuring the line pressure between the two and not the true fuel pressure
( you would be surprised how often i catch that one ! )

noid lights would tell you what injector plugs are active ,,
but asided that,, you could try pulling the injector plugs off all the secondary injectors,, and disconnecting all the trailing spark connectors

and this should go some way to proving if you have mixed things up, or if the wiring pinout diagram was incorrect

the engine should be able to idle no worries on just leading plugs
.. but if idling just on trailing,, then the timing on that rotor WILL be retarded enough to cause the glow and afterburning

the obvious thing i see in your comments is that you are persisting with everything BUT the the correct established split timing

15 degrees,, not 5.. not 20 .. is the established split timing for idle

there is no gains in trying to close the split at idle

5 - 10 BTDC leading ( clockwise of the original timing marks ) is what i find most mild ports on modern fuels require to have a steady idle
and the trailing is naturally 15 degrees behind that
these are not numbers plucked out of the air
,, these are 13bs with exactly the same plug locations as the 20b
and these are the numbers that return the strongest idle vacuum

there will be only more glowing if you think retarding the leading timing is going to work better here

as for more fuel.. the popping is indicating you probs have too much

as if too little,, they basically stall.. and if just not quite enough they tend to lope up and down

again,, we need your realtime ms to make an educated call which way to go

absolutely this should have been confirmed from the outset.. many times already it has been hinted that you may have the polarity of one or both of the pickups back to front,, and this can cause the reason you needed to use the -25 offset
( assuming CAS positions identical )

it is a simple matter to lock the timing and to observe the timing light while you slowly rev the engine

if it jumps around,, you have one back to front

Monsterbox

iTrader: (6)

I set the timing locked to factory -5/-20 (15" split) and fired it up on new plugs.

-verified timing on all 6 while running. Each lines up to respective marks on pulley, does not scatter when moving rpms up and down

-manifold did not glow red tonight, ran it up to at least 140F

-backfiring subsided after it began to get warm/running longer, could simply be unburned oil popping inside the runners/exhaust system on warmup

-vacuum stronger now at around -18inches at 2k rpm

-I was able to pull fuel out and maintain around 13.5-13.8 when the misfiring stopped at warmer temps

However, now that everything is smooth, holding rpms at 2k, the car will randomly cut fuel and shut off then restart and pop back up to 2k, then a few moments later the same cycle. I can post a video shortly. It could just be some sort of idle control setting etc in the computer, although I have everything disabled and no ISC. I'm sure this was happening before I just never noticed it until now. Fuel pressure is consistent, injector and ecu voltages all constant, I'm going to look through the log and see if I can find something. I'm pretty sure its my TPS calibration and the Overrun (Decel) Fuel Cut kicking in at operating temp.

Very satisfied that red runner issue is solved and its running smoother with the timing change. This is looking promising.

bumpstart

this is good news and further proves the adage for rotaries is change plugs first then look for vac leaks

i suspect also you need to adjust some deadband into TPS settings so it doesnt read noise or surges as inputs and initiates throttle pump or fuel cuts

i would suggest also that decel cut and any other fuel cut is left off until advance tuning

now you have some run time, and have a 2000 rpm idle, the trick is ( when warm ) to sneak it down slowly on the throttle stop
and bump the timing up to catch it and keep the vacuum in that strong window

( calibrating the tps everytime you adjust )

this way you will find best idle vacuum and sneak that idle down to 1000

1000 rpm tends to keep things so you can compare apples to apples with yours and other results
will be fast enough for difficult injector and port combos
and will hold up enough against the alt and PS till advanced tuning allows you to get the idle control happening
be aware that a fresh motor will bed significantly over 1000 km
and so it is best to keep the idle on the side of a little rich and a little fast so it keep s idling reliably during setup

Monsterbox

iTrader: (6)

Youre right, certainly a good few lessons learned.

I still believe the center runner is hotter then the other two, and that this is by design. Whether its throttle body, manifold designs, or being sandwhiched between the heat from front and rear rotors, I think the increased timing and sustained high rpm just brought out this characteristic. Hindsight, I wish I would have installed 3 egt sensors

Although it didn't glow, I pulled the new plugs to see L1 and L3 dark and L2 spotless. The trailings were uniform. It would be nice to have a general idea to increase rotor 2 fuel trim

Hopefully smooth sailing from here. Thanks for the help!

Monsterbox

iTrader: (6)

Just to let you know,

Primary Inj MS is ~4.4ms at 1300rpm 0 tps

bumpstart

is the ecu reading vacuum? that sounds very much like a "load" injector duration

with those 850 injectors it should be less than 1.8 ms, closer to 1.6 ms

the ecu and the fuel reg should be hooked to a full time manifold vacuum
some of the vac nipples on the UIM are NOT full vacuum , and give a "ported" signal and are used for "purge" air use

Monsterbox

iTrader: (6)

That's interesting Ill look into the vaccuum ports. I'm using all of the ports on the rear of the UIM, I thought they were all full time. ECU reads vaccuum but it does seem lower than boost gauge

The wideband reads around 13.5-14.0

John Huijben

iTrader: (1)

I missed how you zeroed the timing on all 3 rotors, but here's how I do it:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-0...o/CIMG4174.JPG

I do it by hooking up a clear line to the leading plug of each rotor housing. Made an adapter for it so I can hook it up without leaks. What I do is set the rotor near TDC, fill it up with premixing oil, loosen the trailing plug and rotating the e-shaft back and forth a bit to bleed the air out. When oil starts coming out the trailing plug hole I tighten it. Then get a big 50" ratchet, put it on the e-shaft bolt, and slowwwly move the shaft past TDC, you should see the fluid rising if your before TDC, when it stops rising and starts dropping, that's TDC. Mark the pully there, remove the spark plugs and manually rotate the engine a few times! (So you don't hydrolock the engine when you go and start it up). I did this for all 4 rotors, and checked every single mark with a timing light.

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Decel fuel cut is on, this needs to be raised.

Sounds like its ready for tuning. Generally oil foul's o2 sensors, so best not to run a new engine with them in. Can you get a new unit in before Andy and I come down?