stickmantijuana

iTrader: (1)

so I built everything else in my car--manifold, mounts, tubings, exhaust, etc, but I still feel like the engine internals are no-go land.

I have a few thousand miles on my 3 rotor and want to build another one as back up or to put it in my car to see what the current one looks like... it's not about saving money as much as joy of putting things together that I can use. I wouldn't mind buying proper tools I would use once or twice. that's what I did with my mig welder and plasma cutter lol.

that being said, I wouldn't want to do this if there is a learning curve on getting it done properly, not fast, but properly. but if I can do it properly by following every direction and using brand new rotor housing and rotors, I wouldn't mind taking many months to build it in my guest room.

if you guys can point me to some resources on how feasible this is for an average person, potential downfalls, and how to get it done, that'd be much appreciated! I saw some online videos and it seems quite simple... but I know videos can be tricky... when I first saw tig welding videos, it looked very easy too.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

i think it would be a bad choice, considering the cost of how much a single mistake would cost with a 3 rotor. also the rebuilds of 3 rotors are not well documented so you will be flying blind part of the way.

you also need special tools for a 3 rotor, the front shaft puller alone is about $800.

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

I know that rotaryengine.com has videos on youtube of two separate engines they have assembled, but I personally would send it to a shop with all of the equipment and the experience to do the 3 rotor. The 2 rotor isn't terribly difficult, but there are so many more things to go wrong and the cost is exponentially higher. You also have to worry if you do something wrong that the thick center iron could get damaged, and nobody wants that to happen.


Here are the videos I referenced. I watched both of them in their entirety and they were very informative.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

this is pretty much the whole issue, if someone wants to risk screwing up their very expensive parts then that's their choice.

a new thick plate and rotating assembly are just about the total cost of a 20B engine. but which parts are most likely to be damaged on a 20B novice build? you guessed it.

stickmantijuana

iTrader: (1)

damn ok. yes those videos are the ones that gave me the confidence to try it.

what exactly can I screw up as a novice? just as an example...?

I just had terrible experiences with the entire vendor community. getting ripped left and right. doesn't matter if the reputation is stellar... just gets screwed all the time. about the only thing I would trust them are buying parts.. I rarely get screwed on those.. money was never issue. I always held up my end of the bargain. they also hear 20b and automatically think cha-ching! f'ing a-holes. it's always delay after delay and nickel dime'ing me to no end for stuff we originally agreed on for no other reason than what appears to be just complete laziness and irresponsibility. hahah well I can go on and on and on.

that being said, I don't mind paying for a proper build. I think most often, I ended up paying someone else to learn on my car. that usually seems to be the case with most shops I've been to with exception of kilo racing in FL

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

if you want to learn, my suggestion is to build and learn on a 2 rotor engine first. the main exception of the 20B is knowing how to disassemble and reassemble the front section on the 20B. the rotary engine is a floppy mess when it is half way assembled so you must be confident in knowing the basics before moving up to a multi staged engine assembly.

there is lots one can screw up on the 20B, like losing an apex boot and crushing it between housings, pinching side seals between rotor and iron, bending the front of the eccentric shaft while trying to disassemble the front rotor, etc. the video of someone using a prybar to disassemble the front of a 20B should not work if the engine was assembled tight enough. that video was also probably made when 20B's were a little easier to find, nowadays i almost would rather not work on a 20B because of the cost of the parts and scarcity of them. one little screw up on the thick iron costing $2k+..... basically all profits out the window, no thanks.

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

I personally have not dealt with any of the engine builders on the forum or payed any money for a big build, so I am not one to recommend any one builder or another. I just know of builders by reputation alone. Kilo, Banzai, Turblown, RX7 Specialties, HCR, etc.

I was impressed with how RX7 Specialties went over each build before the build with a specific build sheet per engine. I am unsure if that is standard practice, but that sets the benchmark IMO of how to have a solid estimate of cost and expectation of the build. If it's not on paper, then it wither gets missed or omitted even if it was discussed verbally (porting, upgraded parts, balancing, etc.)

Lumping all vendors into the camp as getting ripped really is not fair to the entire vendor community unless you have genuinely dealt with each and every single one of them. If they took your money and did not do what was agreed, that's one thing, but having an expectation for a specific thing that may or may not have been discussed, or costs you didn't foresee is another thing entirely.

I am a DIY guy myself. I work in a shop all day and come home and fiddle away with my projects, so I get the want to do it all on your own. If it was my money and I had a 20B (which I don't) I would send it to a builder that I had researched and payed them to do it. Every step would be documented and a build sheet would be agreed with all prices and costs accounted for. Since I work in a shop, I understand first hand how things can go very wrong very fast, but I would like to believe that I would trust a shop to build an engine properly.

Not trying to endorse in any way, but I did noticed that RX7 Specialties offers the option to have your engine built on camera and have a video sent with the engine. Since I know how an engine "should" be assembled, it would give me peace of mind. I'm sure other builders would potentially do the same if requested.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

i used to photo series my builds, but then they stopped coming in, so i stopped documenting them.

oh wait, that's because so many other shops ripped people off that they are doing this, building their own cars.

stickmantijuana

iTrader: (1)

acr, I get your point. yes, they all took my money and did not deliver what was promised. in any other industry we work in, there would be a heavy repercussion, but the car vendor community seems to thrive on word of month of the few delivered projects of the past and their vocal supporters on the forum which effectively shuts down anyone with legitimate complaints with a fulltime job.

I also saw rx7 specialty's videos. They seem honest, but most appear honest initially. if you look at what zach went through with PPRE, what david went through with banzai and others, what I went through with rx8performance, etc. etc. Examples are numerous, and the most stunning examples of fraud are rarely illuminated on the forum because their owners simply mark it down as complete loss and move on. It's always a gamble. I think it's our irrational love of our cars that drive us to deal with these places, but I have not seen an honest shop that will deliver on time, what was promised, and on budget. Never.

Banzai-Racing

iTrader: (11)

Sorry, but you are confused, we have never screwed anyone over. David's car has never been in our shop, if you are referring to Hayes, we have only sold him a couple parts. We did build a 3 rotor for Zach (David) which he received in a timely fashion and made 700+ hp before he sold the car and started the 4 rotor project.

If you want to start bashing shops get the names correct.

stickmantijuana

iTrader: (1)

you're right, I had your shop name confused with the one he had to get his car towed back in pieces. my apologies. I went back to his thread to set the name correct, but it's over 100 pages long and I have to go to work. My point was that good shops are the exception, not the norm.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

that would have been Chris Greene's shop in sacramento, then he moved onto running rotary planet and ripping off more customers. i forget the name of what his shop was while he was in sacramento but that shop has long since closed.

he even tried to get me to partner with him, i told him no.

edit: the shop was called WolfEMS USA, and David's car was in his shop when i was last there before Chris turned into a cokehead and started living in a trailer on the shop premises. i actually found someone to help David check up on his car and get it out of there, as he contacted me trying to find other nearby shops to take the car to and trying to get information since Chris was nowhere to be found.

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

Like I said, I personally haven't dealt with big dollars through a vendor. I typically order piecemeal parts as I need them. That being said, there are always legal avenues if a shop doesn't deliver what was under contract. If everything is in writing and a promise was agreed upon as far as time in the contract, then there are BBB avenues, small claims, etc. However, most if not all shops will not have a promise time that they will get penalized for. Something invariably seems to come up, at least that is the impression I get from some members and builds. I will not bash, nor put any shop under the bus, but I know from my experience in a shop for over a dozen years that issues happen all the time with standard repairs. Once any custom work is involved, it goes right out the window. Remember, every vendor here has vendors they deal with too. I promise vehicles to a customer for an expected due time and sometimes a parts house, or a machine shop will drop the ball. It happens and there is nothing I can do on my end, but we are the ones that get bashed on yelp because we missed a due time, not my vendor.

I had a machine shop fail to deliver a part for 2 weeks because the machinist got the flu and couldn't get out of bed for a week. Nothing I could do about it, but my customer was promised a 1 week turnaround. We try and maintain a policy of "under promise; over deliver".

I am sorry to hear that you have gotten ripped by other vendors, and I get your point that some vendors get shielded from bad rep, but usually that is because those people legitimately never had an issue. Bad news travels faster than good news, so that is always an issue. I'm sure you know, but there is always a second side to a story. We will never know what happened between Zach and PPRE exactly, we only got his side. That whole issue seemed very odd from the get-go, since PPRE is supposed to be the authority on 4 rotor engines. Obviously something was missed or messed up with his oil pump issue and his delivery time, but we only know one side. I did think the delivery of the engine was ridiculous, but I also know that Mad Mike was in mid season, so I assume they dumped all progress on his build in favor of Mad Mike. Not good form, but it happens unfortunately.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

with the funding MM gets from advertisers, none of them have any excuse for that being any reason for anything. if a shop their size can only work on one project at a time then they would be doing something seriously wrong.

Banzai-Racing

iTrader: (11)

There are a lot of shady shops, there is a good reason that we have cars in our shop from 10 different states right now. We have a strict schedule that does not allow for cars to sit around for months or years not getting worked on, we keep every customer up to date with individual websites and weekly email updates and our pricing does not change from the original quote unless the customer approves it first based off findings during the rebuild. None of our customers ever get any surprises when they pick up there cars.

Monsterbox

iTrader: (6)

Stickman is really a great guy, and very innovative. He doesn't post to many pics etc of his projects on here, but this guy is a true genius. His rx8 is a work of art, and his level of detail is ridiculous. He remade his exhaust manifold twice, just for additional practice. He is the rare kind of individual that goes "all in", and not meaning financially, but mentally with never ending time dedication into pursuing perfection.

What he means by shadiness definitely resonates strongly. All too often there are times where a service and turn around time is agreed upon, yet the turn around time isn't met. When you're pushing the boundaries, time=expense and there's always a risk to sending something off to another set of hands. These experiences can leave somewhat of PTSD to avoiding all shops in general. However, when it comes down to the motor, have to weigh the risk, as there are a definitely great shops out there, and it wouldn't be a bad idea to leave the engine up to someone who has specialized in building rotaries for a while before attempting it on the 3 rotor. Just look to others who have sent off these engines and have had good reviews.


Banzai did a phenominal job on the 3 rotor engine. Especially happy with the updates on their website, the lighting fast customer service, and engine that ran perfectly. No BS. Chris went above beyond offering advice on ECU's, sending pics of how to double check TDC. Just so many above and beyond things. One of the few times, I've ever paid for something and felt as if I was given 2x as much. Not to mention, every single thing I've purchased from him, the RX8 upgraded rx7 starter, oil cooler bracketry, etc all has been literally shipped the day ordered, always flawless service.

Wouldn't hesitate again to send any engine there.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

since i don't get them anymore, i believe everyone should learn how to build their own engines with these cars. chances are you will be doing it multiple times over the course of owning your car, so if money isn't a resource you have overflowing then it's probably best you sit down and spend time learning the insides of the engine.

but as i said earlier, the 3 rotor isn't an engine you should be starting your experience with. pick up a 2 rotor and build that, be sure it runs and then move on to the next stage.

Monsterbox

iTrader: (6)

definitely will take this advice; I want to learn one day

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

Since I have experience working in a shop and I have had to deal with client complaints, I do take the stance that I will not talk ill of a shop unless I have done business with them, or have a close friend who I trust that can enlighten me as to the whole story.

There are always two sides and there are bad shops out there that give a poor name to the group as a whole. This is remarkably unfair to those of us that pour our blood, sweat, tears, and whole lives into this field. Hearsay and opinions on a forum are typically biased by the people who are either fans or people who had a bad experience, or simply one that did not meet expectations.

I have been reading and researching on this forum since 2006, I actually used to have an account back then, but lost the login, anyways the vendors that seem to be trusted are easy to spot. They reply to posts, provide meaningful insight, defend their business without resorting to petty squabble, and offer seemingly excellent service. Not every vendor is like this, but the ones that are, know who they are and I am certain they take pride in their shops.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

personally, i don't care for other shops that sell people things they don't need and there is a few of those who are big names on this site. if they could quit that one small thing, i would have no issues with them.

Monsterbox

iTrader: (6)

Definitely a two way street, and a side to every story, but the biggest lesson for the new generation i(myself included) is finding out the hard way that what you see isn't always what you get. Its an epidemic. when it comes to Instagram, social media etc all too often, views = credibility. Requires Challenging what you see and searching for hard facts. Challenging ourselves to separate perceived popularity of anything, politics/parts/people/news from the actual reality/facts instead of blindly following and echoing what we hear. Misinformation hurts everyone on both sides.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

no, there's no misperception involved. there have been vendors selling and who still sell unecessary items to people.

one vendor for example used to coat rotors, housings and everything they could sell coatings to people on. i just wasted an hour grinding that crap off a couple of rotors. what was the point when it is just coated in carbon in a thousand miles? absolutely nothing besides probably giving me lung cancer, except one shop owner has an extra $700 in their pocket for some snake oil. it's not the only example i could give either.

Monsterbox

iTrader: (6)

Lol damn

I don't think I ever saw that but that's sounds pretty lame

t-von

iTrader: (8)

100%. I rebuilt my 91 NA vert and another 93 fd engine 1st before tackling my 20b.

stokrx

Give it a crack! I pulled down my own 20B, cleaned and ported and rebuilt it.

Started first time, making decent power, no issues.

First rotary I ever rebuilt too... Pull the motor down and you'll have an understanding of everything. Study the rebuild manual and read all the information here on this sight.

Have a read of my thread.

-Dave