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Old 03-31-02, 08:43 PM   #1
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EMS for 20B

I would like to know what ems to use for my 20 b engine I intend to use it for drag racing , so I need a system that gives me 8000rpm +plus, MIcrotech only goes to 8K.
Beside the system has to be able to manage 3 trailings.
Regards,
Bruno
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Old 04-01-02, 05:14 AM   #2
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Bruno,
The Microtech MTx12 is a very good system for the 20B, in fact Siguel racing (fastest rotary in the world 7.33sec) and R.P.M Performance centre dragster (2nd fastest in the world 7.49sec) use the MTX12. They have adjustable trailing and leading timing splits for 6 coils and true sequential injection on a 20B.The 12 in MTX12 means it has 12 drivers, 6 for coils and 6 for injectors you can order them with an external 3 bar map sensor that reads to 30psi and the microtech will read to 15950rpm , though the unit will only give you revs corrections for tuning to 10,000rpm . The MTX12 has superb data logging even enabling you to use a 4 wire O2 sensor to log air/fuel ratio.
I tune many brands of ECU's at my workshop and honestly I'd recommend the Microtech for a 20B drag car.
Unfortunately the Microtech isnt promoted properly anywhere else but in Australia, where its really big, so information on its abilities is scarce. I can help you if you need to know more.
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Old 04-01-02, 08:13 AM   #3
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Mxt-12

Thank you for your support.
The truth is that I alredy have the mxt-12 system, but I was dissapointed after reading the manual. I hope I am wrong, I have not installed the system yet.
According to the manual you can only manage the timming until 8K rpm. What happens next?
The same goes to the injector.
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Old 04-02-02, 01:05 PM   #4
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I agree with Bruno, the Microtech manual is hideous.&nbsp IMO, some of the control algorithms I do not like from the Microtech.&nbsp Their staging fuel injection is a band-aid system that has the potential to overheat fuel injectors due to keeping the secondaries powered all the time; keeping them off was just a matter of firing a small enough pulsewidth that was too small to trigger them open!



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Old 04-02-02, 11:09 PM   #5
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Microtech are exactly that, A Micro amount of technology !

They are a joke of an ECU.

If you can afford a 20B and all the mods lash out and get an Autronic or a Motec.

I will supply you with an Autronic for $2000Aus and add to this the auto tune function and you do not even need a tunner to dial in your engine.

Do not worry about T & L split you do not need it in my experience.

Auto tune is expensive now but in a few months it will be available for under $1000Aus inc sensor to plug into your SMC or SM2 ECU.

THE ONLY REASON MICROTECH is popular is that you do not need a brain to use it ! MANY MANY workshops in Australia are run by morons who could not tune a lawnmower and the thought of having to fully program a REAL Engine Managment system is beyond their ability.

Funny how ALL professional forms of motorsport do not use Microtech becasue it is **** !

ONLY drag racers use it, mainly due to simplicity.

If you want simple then buy it, if you want accurate and reliable you know the good options
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Old 04-03-02, 07:10 AM   #6
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Reted, The secondaries are powered up but so are they on most factory cars, like any electrical component they'l only get hot when they are earthed to complete the circuit, which in turn opens the injector. I have never heard of this overheating. But thats O.K if you dont like them you dont like them. Yes the Manual is a bit horrific.

Apparently the new Haltech E11 is due for release in weeks and they claim to have split timing for 20Bs, maybe this is worth a look in. contact Haltech Australia for info.
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Old 04-03-02, 07:14 AM   #7
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BRUNO.
I'D LIKE TO BACK UP 1000HP20B'S REPLY.EVERYTHING HE SAYS IS CORRECT & USING THE MTX12 ON YOUR 20B IS A GOOD CHOICE.THE WORLDS 2 QUICKEST 20B POWERED CARS ARE RUNNING THEM.I HAVE ONE ON MY OWN 20B & HAVE FITTED THEM TO NUMEROUS CUSTOMERS CARS & AM TOTALLY HAPPY WITH THE OUTCOME.I HAVE ALSO FITTED & TUNED ALMOST EVERY BRAND OF AFTERMARKET COMPUTER AVAILABLE IN AUSTRALIA & STILL PREFER THE MICROTECH.PARTICULARY ON A 20B.
THE SM2 AUTRONIC WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO SPLIT THE LEADING & TRAILING TIMING LEAVING YOU NO CHOICE BUT TO RUN BOTH TOGETHER.I HAVE SPOKEN TO RICHARD AUBERT WHO IS THE AUTRONIC MANUFACTURER & EVEN HE ADVISES AGAINST SETTING UP THE ENGINE TO RUN THIS WAY. ANY DECENT ROTARY TUNER WHO HAS SPENT TIME ON A DYNO WILL KNOW HOW MUCH CAN BE LOST & GAINED IN BOTH HORSEPOWER & TORQUE BY PLAYING WITH THE TIMING SPLIT ALONE.NOT TO MENTION THE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS MAZDA HAS SPENT THEMSELVES RESEARCHING THE TOPIC.IF IT WASN'T NEEDED THEY WOULDN'T BE DOING IT.
THE AUTRONIC COMPUTER IS AN AWESOME COMPUTER THAT IS RUN BY MANY PROFESSIONAL MOTORSPORT TEAMS BECAUSE OF IT'S FANTASTIC TUNABILITY & ENDLESS FEATURES,HOWEVER FOR YOUR SITUATION THE MICROTECH WOULD BE A BETTER CHOICE.
THE COMPUTER IS ONLY AS GOOD AS THE GUY TUNING IT & WHEN IT COMES TO 20B'S,MICROTECH HAVE THE RUNS ON THE BOARD & YOU SIMPLY CANNOT ARGUE WITH THAT.
I'D BE HAPPY TO HELP YOU OUT WITH ANY QUERIES YOU HAVE IN SETTING ONE UP & TUNING IT ON YOUR ENGINE.BOTH MYSELF & 1000HP20B WILL BE ABLE TO GET YOU UP & RUNNING WITH THE MINIMUM OF FUSS & WITH RESULTS THAT YOU WILL BE MORE THAT HAPPY WITH.
RE-GARDS
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Old 04-03-02, 10:08 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by rxeng
I'D LIKE TO BACK UP 1000HP20B'S REPLY.EVERYTHING HE SAYS IS CORRECT & USING THE MTX12 ON YOUR 20B IS A GOOD CHOICE.THE WORLDS 2 QUICKEST 20B POWERED CARS ARE RUNNING THEM.
Oh boy, here we go again...
I guess the world's quickest 20B cars don't have a clue on tuning anything else?&nbsp Are you talking about Dennis M. and Macos Acosta?

Quote:
I HAVE ALSO FITTED & TUNED ALMOST EVERY BRAND OF AFTERMARKET COMPUTER AVAILABLE IN AUSTRALIA & STILL PREFER THE MICROTECH.PARTICULARY ON A 20B.
Care to list those others?&nbsp MoTeC?&nbsp Haltech?&nbsp Autronics?&nbsp I agree with RICE RACING that any one of these are superior to the Microtech systems.

Quote:
THE SM2 AUTRONIC WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO SPLIT THE LEADING & TRAILING TIMING LEAVING YOU NO CHOICE BUT TO RUN BOTH TOGETHER.
Bullshit...we're run a Haltech E6K and IG5 successfully with true split timing.

Quote:
I HAVE SPOKEN TO RICHARD AUBERT WHO IS THE AUTRONIC MANUFACTURER & EVEN HE ADVISES AGAINST SETTING UP THE ENGINE TO RUN THIS WAY.
For some reason Autronics tuners don't like messing with 3-rotors...

Quote:
ANY DECENT ROTARY TUNER WHO HAS SPENT TIME ON A DYNO WILL KNOW HOW MUCH CAN BE LOST & GAINED IN BOTH HORSEPOWER & TORQUE BY PLAYING WITH THE TIMING SPLIT ALONE.NOT TO MENTION THE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS MAZDA HAS SPENT THEMSELVES RESEARCHING THE TOPIC.IF IT WASN'T NEEDED THEY WOULDN'T BE DOING IT.
I guess this does not count you.&nbsp You showed your ignorance on what the trailing split timing was designed for.&nbsp You have no clue on what Mazda programmed ignition maps are.&nbsp All you did was descredit yourself.&nbsp Anyone who HAS messed with split trailing timing knows that as the split goes to "0", more power is gained.&nbsp Wider split timing is only for emissions; the Mazda programmed ignition maps concur.

Quote:
THE AUTRONIC COMPUTER IS AN AWESOME COMPUTER THAT IS RUN BY MANY PROFESSIONAL MOTORSPORT TEAMS BECAUSE OF IT'S FANTASTIC TUNABILITY & ENDLESS FEATURES,HOWEVER FOR YOUR SITUATION THE MICROTECH WOULD BE A BETTER CHOICE.
Great conclusion...

Quote:
THE COMPUTER IS ONLY AS GOOD AS THE GUY TUNING IT
Finally something I agree with!

Quote:
& WHEN IT COMES TO 20B'S,MICROTECH HAVE THE RUNS ON THE BOARD & YOU SIMPLY CANNOT ARGUE WITH THAT.
Funny, the Electromotive TEC-I systems are popular in the U.S., because Electromotive claims it can power a 20B 3-rotor.&nbsp It's trailing split is kinda hokey, and you need a run THEIR ignition system, but a LOT of 20B's are controlled by these units.



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Old 04-03-02, 05:56 PM   #9
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I think Americans are smart people, they know a piece of **** when they see it ! Microtech fits the bill.

Cheap, nasty, poor resolution, only pluses are monkeys can tune them

You can perform miricals with pieces of ****, look at PRO STOCK cars, carbies and big blocks running 8's
They still suck ****, when it comes to being all round performers.

My point is that ANY PIECE OF SHIT ECU OR CARBY can run a 1/4 mile FAST, A real ECU driven engine can do this AND do everything else, be tuned closer to the edge, be more reliable, use less fuel etc etc.

As I have always said look to the professional motorsport arena, Carbies have not been used for decades (unless rules prohibit them) and SHIT ECUs like Microtech are not used to ANY level of success.

Last edited by RICE RACING; 04-03-02 at 05:59 PM.
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Old 04-03-02, 06:40 PM   #10
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DEAR BRUNO,
I MUST APOLOGISE FOR MY TWO AUSTRALIAN FRIENDS AS THEY OBVIOUSLY HAVE FAR TO MUCH TIME ON THEIR HANDS. I AM LOOKING FORWARD TO SEEING THE RESULTS THAT THEY ACHIEVE WITH THEIR OWN ENGINE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM AS THEY MUST BE BRIGHT ENOUGH TO BUILD ONE OF THEIR OWN. I HAVE RACED AND BEEN TUNING ALL OF AUSTRALIA'S MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS FOR 10 YEARS AND ALL OF THEM HAVE THEIR MERIT. I PERSONALLY INSTALLED A MT12 ON MARCOS AUGUSTA'S CAR LAST SEPTEMBER AND WILL BE INSTALLING ANOTHER ON THEIR NEW PRO STOCK TRUCK THIS MONTH. JOSE SIGUEL TORRES IS ONE OF PUERTO RICO'S LEADING TUNERS OF ALL DIFFERENT MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS AND TUNES MORE THAN JUST 3 ROTORS, I GUESS I ALSO OWE HIM AN APOLOGY ON THE AUSSIES BEHALF. I WILL GIVE HIM THIS WHEN I CREW FOR HIM THIS SEASON. THE BEST ADVICE TO YOU BRUNO IS TO CONTACT ONE OF MANY MT12 20B USERS AND GET THEIR ADVICE. THE NEW LT12 HAS FAR BETTER RESOLUTION AND I CAN PERSONALLY ASUURE YOU THAT IT WORKS ON 20BS. PLEASE ACCEPT MY APOLOGY AS NOT ALL AUSSIES ARE IGNORANT.
SEE YOU IN THE WINNERS CIRCLE.
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Old 04-03-02, 06:53 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony Rodrigues
DEAR BRUNO,
I MUST APOLOGISE FOR MY TWO AUSTRALIAN FRIENDS AS THEY OBVIOUSLY HAVE FAR TO MUCH TIME ON THEIR HANDS. I AM LOOKING FORWARD TO SEEING THE RESULTS THAT THEY ACHIEVE WITH THEIR OWN ENGINE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM AS THEY MUST BE BRIGHT ENOUGH TO BUILD ONE OF THEIR OWN. I HAVE RACED AND BEEN TUNING ALL OF AUSTRALIA'S MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS FOR 10 YEARS AND ALL OF THEM HAVE THEIR MERIT. I PERSONALLY INSTALLED A MT12 ON MARCOS AUGUSTA'S CAR LAST SEPTEMBER AND WILL BE INSTALLING ANOTHER ON THEIR NEW PRO STOCK TRUCK THIS MONTH. JOSE SIGUEL TORRES IS ONE OF PUERTO RICO'S LEADING TUNERS OF ALL DIFFERENT MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS AND TUNES MORE THAN JUST 3 ROTORS, I GUESS I ALSO OWE HIM AN APOLOGY ON THE AUSSIES BEHALF. I WILL GIVE HIM THIS WHEN I CREW FOR HIM THIS SEASON. THE BEST ADVICE TO YOU BRUNO IS TO CONTACT ONE OF MANY MT12 20B USERS AND GET THEIR ADVICE. THE NEW LT12 HAS FAR BETTER RESOLUTION AND I CAN PERSONALLY ASUURE YOU THAT IT WORKS ON 20BS. PLEASE ACCEPT MY APOLOGY AS NOT ALL AUSSIES ARE IGNORANT.
SEE YOU IN THE WINNERS CIRCLE.
If knowledge and truth are arrogance than I am guilty !

Go microtech if you want inferior results and you just plan on drag racing it will do the job.

But if you want real features like I mentioned then no amount of political bullshit from Anthony will cover up the fact that Microtech are **** compared to the MANY good ECUs on the market.

If you drag race follow the monkeys, If you want proven proffessional result follow everyone else in the world.

Choice is yours
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Old 04-03-02, 07:48 PM   #12
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Re: EMS for 20B

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruno
I would like to know what ems to use for my 20 b engine I intend to use it for drag racing , so I need a system that gives me 8000rpm +plus, MIcrotech only goes to 8K.
Beside the system has to be able to manage 3 trailings.
Regards,
Bruno
Bruno, this is my engineering based opinion and experience for you.

T&L timming split is not going to make as much power as firing them together. You can back this up by asking MASDASPEED, RACING BEAT, RE AMEMIYA, JIM DOWNING etc etc both for forced induction and n/a.

If you e-mail me I will send you scientific proof of this if these references are not enought for you.

Also here is a quote from one of my Australian counterparts 1000HP20B
"Why not run a Microtech MTX12 which has adjustable split timing for trailing every 500rpm, so not only does it have the split but you can change it from the normal 15 degree to ...lets say 5 degree up top in the revs.
Advancing the trailing timing closer to the leading is actually worth more power up top in the rev range. "

Now if firing them together is not an issue for you, then you can look at MANY good ECUs I would rate them in this order for support for you HALTECH, MOTEC, AUTRONIC, EMS (run by 20B user in Australia ROTORMASTER who is faster than all microtech injected "CARS (not rails!)" ! MAZFIX runs mechanical injection !)...All are first class units and ALL offer mucher higher tunning ability than the Microtech do currently.

You would be foolish to choose a Microtech unit as there is not the resolution you are after. PERIOD.

Last edited by RICE RACING; 04-03-02 at 07:50 PM.
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Old 04-03-02, 08:36 PM   #13
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Rooter Master are only faster in ET not MPH
Pac Racing's RX3 customer car PACMAN is the fastest with 174.4MPH Microtech injected.

BTW Rice i have never seen one of your cars hit the strip to show us how good your stuff is, matter of fact i have never seen a car of yours, if your stuff is so good why dont people use it??

Dale
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Old 04-03-02, 08:49 PM   #14
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Dale, NO ONE can tell me that a Microtech is good compared to the ECUs I have mentioned. PERIOD

I have explained in detail that you do not need an acurate unit to be fast in the 1/4 mile.

But if you want reliability, efficiency, and best spread of power MICROTECH will not stack up to the other REAL ECUs on offer.

Drag racing as a sport is not so critical on these points I guess.
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Old 04-03-02, 09:03 PM   #15
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Im not saying that they are better, just every ECu has it merits, Microtech are the most used ECU on the market in Austalia. They are great value for money and do the job very well for the price you pay, I have fitted and tuned 5 of these units on different types of cars (rotors, turbo BMW, 200sx) never once had a problem with driavibility or tuning. For less than Au$1000 you get a bloody good computer that will do everything asked of it.
90% of street cars that use them only need the functions that they offer so why pay more than twice the price for a computer if you dont need it?


Once again i ask where are all your cars, if your products are soo great why isnt everybody using them??
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Old 04-03-02, 09:09 PM   #16
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is it just me, or is it funny that 'Anthony' and 'rxeng' both have 3 posts each and both write in caps? I think they are the same person, but anyway...

'Anthony'....Marcos Augusta? Is that the same guy as Marcos Acosta with the 20B powered MX3? Is it the same car that has run 7.64 @ 176mph? Is it the same car that is featured on haltechs website and alot of promotional material as running an Haltech fuel/ignition E6A and an ignition only IG5?

http://www.haltech.com.au/Who_s_Hot_...os_acosta.html

Alter egos own j00!
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Old 04-03-02, 09:12 PM   #17
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Thats the point exactly, they are not better nor are they even close to a mojority of ECUs available.

For the money they will do the job, but I for one would not use one if I had the choice. We are blessed in Australia to have SO many world class ECU makers and yet we are home to some of the poorest as well !

It is a classic irony that the ONE biggest reason Microtech are SO popular is that you do not need to be the smartest bloke to get one running !

For most people who do not want the best overal package and are on a tight budget the Microtech is a perfect choice.
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Old 04-03-02, 09:21 PM   #18
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10secrx7, I do not have many cars ,and I am not into dragracing, and I never said my products are great !

I am saying that Microtech is ****, compared to the GOOD ECUs manufactured in this country!

Not you or Anthony or Jesus Christ can pull the wool over my eyes or anyone with an ounce of inteligence who comes to this forum for real advice not advertising bullshit just to promote a product becasue they use it or sell it or are an agent for it.

Microtech is one of the worst computers on the market period.

There are many good options out there for people who do not mind spending some more money.

I am yet to be proved other wise.

Untill they upgrade their product, then unfortunatley for Microtech I will go out of my way to discourage people from using their inferior systems !
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Old 04-03-02, 09:21 PM   #19
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Fair call everyone has there own opinion,
I just think you are too harsh on a product that has done soo much for the australian rotary market,

how many engines have you built??

Last edited by 10sec rx7; 04-03-02 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 04-03-02, 09:33 PM   #20
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Quote:
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Fair call everyone has there own opinion,
I just think you are too harsh on a product that has done soo much for the australian rotary market,
It has mate, it has earned me alot of money from people tunning their cars for no real work as well....It is something I am not proud of but is true.

Many people in our country push these systems only on the fact of ease of tunning (for the supplier) and low cost. I maybe am too harsh on them, but it's only cause I have experienced other systems and am not affraid of them (the work involved in setting them up). Not that ALL rotary guys are affraid but it does take a hell of a lot longer to map a Autronic, Haltech, Motec or any other that runs on this type of design philosophy.

I will not call them **** again, but if people ask me, or ask the FORUM what is the go then I will tell them my experience.

This is a place where people can make up their own minds based on facts supplied to them.
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Old 04-03-02, 09:35 PM   #21
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I have built about 50 engines. My current project which will go in a drag car is a 13B PP TURBO

send me an e-mail and we can talk more about that one !

riceracing@ozemail.com.au

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Old 04-03-02, 09:43 PM   #22
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Have you seen the New 3d microtech??

When will this 13b PP turbo be seing the track?? i will be there to see how she goes
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Old 04-03-02, 10:16 PM   #23
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As much as Rice goes a little over the top sometimes, he is completely right. I tune at least 2 or 3 Microtech systems a week including the LT laptop programmable (just a bigger hadset) versions, and I consider them one of the bottom of the heap, down there with EMS, Wolf, and Link. If you are serious about running your engine properly, spend the money and buy a high end system. The ECU is the beating heart of your powertrain, and cheaping out on the one thing that controls how your motor will run, especially after spending so much on it, is just ludicrous. I myself have a 3-rotor RX7 and I wouldn't put an MTX-12 (LT included) on my car if they were giving them out for free.

Nothing makes me laugh more than the comment I hear so often here in Aus. "Microtechs are the best for rotaries, mate". It has to be the biggest crock of **** next to the one about putting V8 vege-juice in your tank makes your car sound like a V8. :-) Rice hit the nail on the head..... MECHANICS sell Microtechs because any idiot can make the car run. Mechanics are not engine TUNERS. Most of them have no idea on fuelling and ignition requirements of an engine, so to them the cheapest thing that gets the car out of the workshop is the best option. They don't care that the customer will complain that it is too inconsistent to make their engine idle properly with large injectors, or they don't care that the ignition timing scatters like cockroaches under a spotlight. They don't have a clue how to configure the ignition setup of an ECU for different vehicles, and most don't have a clue if their 386SX laptop is running DOS or Windows. Instead they like the little handset that lets them feel like they are in control. For them, if the car runs then the job is done.

It is good to see people bringing up the scoreboard to show how good an ECU is. It only goes to show the monkey-see monkey-do attitude of drag racers, and how out of their depth they are when it comes to engine management and its application. To repeat on what has already been covered.... only drag racers use them, no-one else does.

To summarise.... if you want your engine to run properly and to last, pay the extra and get a good ECU. At least it will then have the scope to expand with you as your vehicle progresses, and wont need to be replaced when you DO find the limitations of cheaper systems like the Microwrecks.
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Old 04-03-02, 11:31 PM   #24
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+ Microwreck =

Then your engine will do this

At which point you should do this to yourself

For choosing a Microwreck
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Old 04-04-02, 05:17 AM   #25
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AJC13B,
No I am not the same person that posts as rxeng, MVA or Marcos Augusta is the same person that is being used as a Haltec promo vehicle. Due to inconsistency problems with the cars performance we changed the ECU and wiring harnesses only to find other ignition problems independant of the ECU. Unfortunately the vehicle has since been stolen and is currently being replaced by an ex-pro stock truck that will be first fitted with a 20B and then with a 4 rotor engine that is currently being developed here in AUS. Many or most of Australia's leading rotary workshops use and promote Microtech(myself included), and yes it is being used with great success in all forms of motorsport where rotors are being used. Ivan Mikac is argueably the fastest outright circuit car (sports sedan) in the country, and it uses a Microtech, Rowan Ambrose set many club car track records last year and so he also uses a Microtech. I can also continue into rally, speedway and off-road racing.
It is not that it is any better than other units, it is just that it is definitely affordable and capable at any level of Motorsport. I would be surprised if any one can really argue the results, regardless of theoretical backgrounds. The only reason I put my two bobs worth is because I travel in the US often and it really is embarassing to see technical forums graffitied by little squirrels jerking off and slagging every other Australian evenif their intent is good.
Regards Anthony Rodrigues.-Maztech of Melb.
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Old 04-04-02, 05:17 AM
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20b, ambrose, autronic, e11, ems, features, haltech, ignition, log, microtech, mtx12, rotary, rowan, trailing, wiring

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