Northern 7

iTrader: (3)

FYI
Here's Royal Purples response to my inquiry through Racing Beat:

My name is David Canitz and I am the Technical Services Manager for Royal
Purple Ltd.
I am a degreed Mechanical Engineer as well as CLS certified by STLE
(professional society dealing with wear and lubrication)
I am also a long time Mazda rotary owner and racer. (FB, FC, FD, and GT3 RX3
as well as a GT3 FD under construction) and have used Royal Purple in my
personal rotary applications since 1992 with excellent results.

Royal Purple is ideally suited for your turbo rotary and can think of no
reason not to install this in your engine and start obtaining increased wear
protection as well as performance for your engine and turbocharger. Royal
Purple recommends that you use the recommended oil grade as listed in your
owner's manual. I believe that you will find the 10W30 suitable for all
year round use (including winter) although I suspect from the low miles that
this jewel may not be driven during the rough Dakota's winter. If that is
the case, you could use the 20W50 for summer use.

The high temperature breakdown resistance of the synthetic base oils and the
excellent additive package gives outstanding oil film strength protecting
the e-shaft, rotor bearings, thrust bearings and is suitable for the oil
injection system. Royal Purple has proven to run cleaner than other oils
and is an excellent choice for a rotary apex seals, corner seals, and side
seals.

I would like to also like to highly recommend our MaxGear 75W90 for the
manual transmission as well as the differential. We also offer a power
steering fluid (MaxEZ) and a radiator additive called Purple ICE.
Specifications on these products can be found at www.royalpurple.com.

Thanks for the inquiry on Royal Purple.

Sincerely,


David Canitz
Tech Services
Royal Purple Ltd
1 Royal Purple Lane
Porter, TX 77365
281-354-8600 x202
281-354-7335 fax

Wankelguy

Two-stroke engines require a much higher oil/fuel ratio as they rely on the premix oil to lubricate more parts.
Rotaries can use premix ratios upwards of 150:1 depending on the oil used.

Rx7carl

You Bastard! I purposely avoided reading this thread. Now that I see the posts I have one question. Nice response from Royal Purple, notice how he doesnt state that they use %100 PAO base stock (probably cause they dont) . Guys, do some freakin research jeez. I wish I had a resource as wonderful as the internet at my fingers when I was a kid. BTW, Im joining AMSOIL to get me some oil to try in my DD along with the wifes truck. Right now were testing a cheap syn (havoline) first. So no results in yet. You may all go back to fighting now.

BTW, back in the early 90's when I first got my FB I ran Mobil 1 (original PAO formulation) for 30k with no troubles.

Wankelguy

There you are, it's about time...

I've been using Amsoil in my Fiesta for a few months now, and have noticed that the oil seems to be staying really CLEAN, and also oil consumption has essentially dropped to ZERO. The motor never really burned oil to begin with, but I would still have to occasionally add just a little bit of oil to compensate for what I believe to be normal thermal burnoff.
And, I've seen a slight increase in fuel mileage as well as a perception of the motor revving a bit more freely.
The Amsoil 75W-90 gear oil is the most impressive, though. I had a skritchy 3rd gear synchro in my RX4 that was virtually CURED within a couple of months of puttin' Amsoil in the tranny. It also helps quiet gear whine and bearing noise in older units. No wisecracks about my age, please.

851stgen12a

And nobody has even mentioned how incredibley synthetic oils potect against heat. Cause we all know how bad it is to over heat a rotary. If the oil will help protect the motor from breaking down under extreme heat than I am sold. the first time my thermostat sticks and the motor ovewr heats, and the oil doenst break down.... I think it has paid for itself completly.

Rx7carl

Sucked me right in didnt ya!

The oil loss you normally see will be gone. If you read the website, they talk about how some of the molecules in dino oil (since its made of molecules of varying lenghts/sizes) Will boil off since theyre really light (Think of gasoline).

Again, you all can go back to flaming each other.

Rx7carl

Ok Im in this for good now. In the name of science I ran a little test tonight. I took a teaspoon, some oil and a propane torch. I heated a sample of 10 drops of oil with the torch. First it would boil and smoke like a ****, then catch fire and burn till there was nothing left to burn. I then examined the spoon, noting the condition, smell etc. Then I scraped the residue off onto a piece of paper. I did a sample of Castrol 20W-50 and the cheap Havoline 10W-30 synthetic I mentioned earlier. I'll let you guess on the findings as its late and I'm tired. Lets just say the results didnt surprise me, but I bet the syn naysayers wont like this.

rototiller1

Mobil 1, 20w50 omp

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

The synthetic left some nasty crud, right?

Hmm, I've got a bunsen burner I could use. I also have some Castrol syntec and some Castrol GTX 10w30. It's for science, right?

Spinner-D(eluxe)

Mazda's own racing team uses Synthetics.

I use AMSOIL.

Mazda recommends Dyno Oil because it doesn't want people switching to Synthetic after years of Dyno and then getting oil leaks when the Synthetic oil starts eating away at the years of Dyno Oil build-Up crap that seals your engines gaskets, O-Rings etc...

Bottom Line... Use Dyno if you already do and your engine is old. Use Synthetic if your engine is new and you broke it in with Dyno. Don't break a new engine in with Synthetic.

CHUCKCAT

Some good points made here thank you !
Now my findings on a 12a that has been running Castrol 20W-50 synthetic oil in her for 2 years now
with oil injection hooked up and working
and no premix
we just opened her up for some porting
It looks well great
its verry clean no build up
hardly any ware on anything
A verry thin oil clean film on housing walls and rotors
like a protective coating verry nice I like it
not like when we opened it up 2years ago 54,000miles ago
back then it had had always ran reg oil
it was full of black tar like stuff and made littel power
At that time we cleaned it out put new seals in it and put it back together also started runningCastrol 20W-50 synthetic
Sorry but I don't care who tells me synthetic is not for rotarys I'm sold It's what I'm puting in every rotory I work on and know
You guys can keep runing the reg oil but I will not sam I am I will not make my rotary eat that black tar and ham

also look at the back of oil cans some say "not for rotarys" on them may be the det will eat seals I don't know why but I thats the only thing I could come up with?
well oil on guys!
and thanks again !!
This topic needed to be on it's own and not messing up other forums

CHUCKCAT

I think I should switch my other rotory over but maybe
clange it to synthetic blend that they sell first so I don't clean all that stuff out all at once and plug something
run it for a month then go full synthetic

Any one have any thoughts on this?

Rx7carl

The Synthetic Havoline smoked a bit less than the dino oil. It smelled like a candle when you blow it out whereas the Castrol GTX smelled like ......burning oil. The leftover deposits were much less with the syn, At least %75 less. It also seemed to be smaller finer particles.

Wankelguy

Just clean the engine internals with a can of Power Foam, blow it out by driving at highway speed for at least 30 minutes to make sure all the crud gets blown out and doesn't redeposit itself in say, an apex seal slot, and you're good to go.

Carl, you did such a good job on the LAST synthetic oil thread, I hoped that you would favor us again.
Plus, I'm kinda lazy and type real slow.

Chuckcat- do you have to pay extra for punctuation, buddy?

anthrax

Man why can't people use the serch function?

but the later info has been enlightening.

my only coment is this...

If you do not intend to clean the engin internals stick with dino oil (non synthetic) because after 18+ years of dino oil it will take forever to dilute the remainder of the dino oil out of the system

Rx7carl

Im to lazy to retype it. So here it is.

https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...5&pagenumber=1

Rx7carl

LOL from the 3rd gen forum.

https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...85#post2123485

jimtesla

Hey

So I have 85 SE.....Documented use of Castrol 10-30 or 20-50 since day one......No oil leaks, Never over heated.......I have 91 k on the clock..........I have switched over to Redline Synthetic's in the LSD and Tranny........No more noisy Syncros

I change the oil every 2000 miles....every 1000 miles I add a quart.....

So If I did the Power foam and cleaned the oil out........
What great gaines in my set up would I get by switching to synthetics......I am still just stock.....

Just looking at the cost.....with no particular increase in performance......Stick to the original Dino set up seems best......The reason I switched over the tranny and LSD was noise and I was told that I needed a rebuild of the tranny.........Huge difference........10 fold in reduction of noise........

Somebody sell me on Synthetic Oil............I dont see a
need to switch.........

CHUCKCAT

Chuckcat- do you have to pay extra for punctuation, buddy?

I'm sorry
I have never been good at english....
Verry week in the writing and spelling or lazzy I gess....
I slept threw it and it shows.....
Hell I never opened a book in school and I passed somehow ....
I was to into building things and working 40hrs a week ..
School was boring for me then and now that I'm older we all pay for my mistakes....

I'm not proud of that so I'm working on it ....
If you are a Teacher/parent show that kid in your class/home who don't have to study to get ok grades how I write.....
Tell them that just because they are smart and can do anything with out much thought ...
It is verry important that they aply themselfs 100% in english.....
I didn't and look at me now!!!
Yes I get by but I strugle every day!!!

Pele

iTrader: (28)

What's PAO? I've read through lots of other debates on Synthetis VS Petroleum oils and never heard this term...

I've always used Castrol GTX 20w50 because I went with the theory that so many others use it, they can't all be wrong... But then I got to thinkin, what if it just doesn't matter what kinda oil you use in the short run...

I've been thinking of keeping the OMP, but adding the adapter that allows it to take from a resivour rather than the oil pan, running a synthetic like Mobil 1 in the engine, and a two stroke clean burning oil to the resivour...

Pittdp

rotary performance told me they use castrol 20*50, I use 10*40 myself. www.howstuffworks.com has a good write up, it has amsoil on top of there list with castrol second.

Rx7carl

Pele, read this.



Synthetic Oils
Snake or Miracle Oil?
You might be surprised to hear us referring to “synthetic oil” as “snake oil.” We have used synthetics since day one and switched completely to synthetics in 1993 when BMW endorsed their use. Thirteen years and tens of thousands of quarts of synthetic oil later, why then the sudden change? Because the name “synthetic oil” itself is not a true indicator of a premium quality product. Let’s dig a little deeper to understand why.

Group III and IV Base Stocks
The current definition of “synthetic oil” for labeling purposes includes Group III and Group IV base stocks. In simple terms, Group III is Group II conventional crude oil that undergoes additional processing. Group IV on the other hand is engineered oil built at the molecular level to produce a completely uniform base stock. We simply don’t believe crude oil refined extra steps qualifies as synthetic or that it will provide anywhere near the same level of protection.

Maybe you’re just jumping to conclusions here. Surely a respected scientific community made the determination that Group III oils were just as good as Group IV to be called synthetics! No. Ok, then it must have been an engineering community that could have proven the virtues of one against the other through comprehensive testing. Wrong again! The fact is that there is no definition offered by any respected scientific or engineering community defining what constitutes “synthetic oil.”

Ok, then who could have made such an important decision? Would you believe the National Advertising Division (NAD) of the Council of Better Business Bureaus? Why on earth would the NAD get involved in deciding what constitutes synthetic oil? It’s simple; in 1997 Castrol changed the base stock in their Syntec product line from Group IV to Group III. Complaints were filed against Castrol for continuing to call their product synthetic oil. Without any scientific or engineering definitions, the NAD took it upon themselves to make the determination. Since Group III is Group II processes through extra steps, the NAD felt it was a reasonable basis for the claim that Castrol Syntec was synthesized.

Since this momentous decision, a number of other companies have followed suit switching their synthetic products to Group III base stock. Most these products are still sold at a premium price level since consumers are willing to pay more for synthetics. The problem is that consumers are paying more because they believe they are getting a substantially better product! I believe people are buying “snake oil” they think is better due to a ruling by the NAD.

Group III vs. Group IV
Wait a minute, in testing Group III oils test almost as good as Group IV. Wouldn’t this be an indicator that Group III oils are just as good?

If you bought a new car you more than likely noticed the estimated fuel averages for city and highway driving. Like most of us, you probably haven’t seen that mileage other then on the sticker. Several factors affect your actual mileage including individual driving styles, engine break-in, gas quality, weather, road surface, etc. We all know these facts and realize these estimates are simply standardized measurements that allow us to compare different vehicles tested under the same conditions. It doesn’t mean we should expect that level of performance.

In a similar manner, oils are tested using an assortment of standardized tests. Oils can be compared against each other based on test results, chemical makeup and additives. In the real world, these oils are used in a wide variety of operating conditions and exposed to a number of contaminates including condensation, exhaust blow by and air particulate. Not to mention environmental conditions, vehicle maintenance and individual driver demand. All of these variables combined place unique demands on your oils. Here too, real world performance varies from the test environment.

We have first hand experience with the results of 3,000-6,000 miles of use on oils in the real world heat and humidity of Florida on a modern clean burning engine. Conventional oils are pushed to and in some cases beyond their limits. We were not surprised to see these oils breakdown under these conditions. What did surprise us was the poor performance of some synthetic oils.

Our records show which specific oil or oils were used in each and every service. We also ask new customers or those that do their own service what oils they use and when they last changed it when we find sludge for example in their motor.

Could the oil be breaking down because they are running it well beyond the recommended limits?
Is it a case that they are simply using low grade oils?

Almost everyone was following BMW's mileage and/or time recommendations for their oil changes. All the oils that performed poorly were either Group II or the "so called" synthetic Group III base stock oils!

Group IV Advantage
Crude oil is comprised of a wide range of different size molecules. The size of individual molecules ultimately determines the thickness or viscosity of the oil. The larger the molecule size, the thicker the oil. For engine oils, a medium sized molecule yields the desired fluid viscosity. Crude oil is refined to remove unwanted molecules. However, the resulting Group II and III products are still comprised of a cocktail of various size molecules.

In hot engines the smaller molecules evaporate which is generally perceived as oil consumption. Of greater concern is the fact that the remaining oil is thickening as a direct result of losing the smaller molecules. Larger molecules tend to have weaker bonds that break or sheer. Gears in motorcycle engines not typically found in automotive applications contribute to molecular sheer. The broken molecules bond with free oxygen or other free molecules growing into very large molecules forming sludge that further increases oil viscosity.

Group IV base stock oils are comprised of molecules that are all exactly the same size. These molecules are engineered to provide the desired viscosity and a very strong molecular bond. As a result, there are no small molecules to evaporate and molecules are highly resistant to breaking or shearing. Therefore, these oils are highly resistant to forming sludge or viscosity changes. Group IV oils hold up better in higher temperatures under all conditions.

Bottom Line
Now to answer the question regarding which oil type and approach is better.

Conventional oil (Group II or III) changed more frequently than the recommended interval.
Synthetics oil (Group IV) changed at the vehicle manufacturers recommended interval.
The fact is that a Group IV synthetic is the only way to go. Conventional oils do not hold up well in our experience even when changed at three times the recommended interval. If you calculate the just cost of the oil, filters and gaskets alone, it costs more. Then there's the issue of disposing of the waste oil and filter. These items are controlled substances in the State of Florida regulated by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA).

Our first hand experience has shown that engineered Group IV synthetic base stock oils are still going strong at 6,000 miles. What happens if you're on the road traveling or something comes up and you accidentally run past the recommended change interval? Which oil would you rather have in the crankcase? Why put yourself through the extra work and expense of conventional oils. Do the job right and ride with confidence between services.

Just be on the look out for "snake oil" disguised as synthetic. You want to be sure you’re getting Group IV PAO base stock oils for your motor and driveline.



ã 2003 BMW of Orlando, Inc. All rights reserved

Rotofire

so do you have to use a premix? i thought the engine did that for you :shrug: so i don't know what's going on...i took mine to the shop well my mom did thinking she was helping....*sigh* oh well. anyway she took it to a valvoline place and i'm not shure what they put in it. good or bad situation?

Rx7carl

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...hreadid=237777

Specifically from there
http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/cfaqmenu.html#FCF
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...hreadid=225649
http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/cfaqtext.html#MIXOIL

12abridgep0rt

synthetic is bad for rotarys period. Why would you spend extra money to damage your engine?