Injectors not pulsating car will start with spraying starter fluid
02-24-17, 05:32 PM
#1
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Injectors not pulsating car will start with spraying starter fluid
Gsl se85
New fuel pump, new fuel pump relay, fuel present at injectors.
Car starts when I spray stater fluid into
Throttle body.
?why injectors not pulsating ?
Ecu? Coils? Throttle body sensor?
Pressure regulator?
Need help
I posted yesterday about converting to carburetor
Because I am frustrated
New fuel pump, new fuel pump relay, fuel present at injectors.
Car starts when I spray stater fluid into
Throttle body.
?why injectors not pulsating ?
Ecu? Coils? Throttle body sensor?
Pressure regulator?
Need help
I posted yesterday about converting to carburetor
Because I am frustrated
02-24-17, 05:40 PM
#2
Have you downloaded the FSM and looked to the troubleshooting section? We really can't tell you without more information (troubleshooting). from your side.
http://foxed.ca/index.php?page=rx7manual#firstgen
http://foxed.ca/index.php?page=rx7manual#firstgen
02-24-17, 07:53 PM
#3
ancient wizard...
Understand your frustration,you've come to the right place for help. People here are willing to assist you in diagnosing and repairing your car,take the advice given for where to find the information and use it to systematically troubleshoot the no start problem. You really want to prove a part is bad before replacing it,it gets expensive quickly as you are finding out. We can't tell you which direction to go until you post with test results from components you've tested following diagnostic tree in manual.
02-24-17, 08:26 PM
#4
When you say that the car will start with starter fluid do you mean it starts for a brief second and then dies? Reason why I ask is because almost any car will appear to start for a quick second or two if you spray starter fluid into the TB.
02-24-17, 08:38 PM
#5
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car starts and stays on as long as I spray the throttle body with starting fluid, when I stop spraying the car will stop.
This tells me there is spark from plugs, I Know that I got fuel at injectors, and the car starts if I supply gas, but I don't know why the injectors are not firing,
This tells me there is spark from plugs, I Know that I got fuel at injectors, and the car starts if I supply gas, but I don't know why the injectors are not firing,
02-25-17, 08:46 PM
#7
ok, so you got fuel at the injectors but the car won't start. You say you have spark at the plugs----good. If I remember correctly, there are two fusible links I believe near the left side strut tower. I think one is for the EGI/ECU???? Maybe someone else can verify. Check to make sure they are not blown. I had a problem with the fuel injection fuse and it caused the injectors to run wide open. The car ran so rich you couldn't stand near it. It would flood itself out.
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02-26-17, 02:15 PM
#10
84SE-EGI helpy-helperton
Hey, Omar - logged into my PC so I could type you a better response. Here are some things to try, along with the method of operation so you can build an understanding.
First off - good that you have spark; running it on the starter fluid at least determines that you have solid spark and eliminates that as part of the problem. Your problem sounds like fuel injection - could be injectors, but more likely Ignitors, Coils which trigger the ECU firing the injectors, or the various wiring to the Fuel system.
Don't give up on RE-EGI just yet - it's far more reliable and easier to tune than a carbeurator, in my experience.
Method of Operation;
1) Fuel Pump - Your fuel pump is energized ONLY when the Air Flow Meter tells the ECU that there's air coming into the engine. There's a plastic connector under the Air Flow Meter that can be shunted (paperclip, or 2 spade connectors on a wire) which will run the Fuel Pump even without the engine spinning sucking in air. Be sure you have good fuel pump operation, as there's a 'Circuit Cut' relay on the same mount as the ECU under the passenger footwell which may have gone bad and isn't switching on fuel pump power. If you run the shunt, and can hear the fuel pressure at the rail (or the pump under the car), then your pump is probably fine. Fuel pumps last a good long time, and don't fail very often. If you don't hear fuel pressure, you're back to troubleshooting the pump or the wiring to it. ***Make sure you remove that test shunt under the AFM when you're done, or it can cause flooding if you have leaky injectors...
2) The ECU - To tell the injectors when to fire, the ECU takes a trigger signal from the Trailing Coil (front one on the fender) via a single white wire that goes into the harness from there. That white wire tells the ECU when the trailing plug is firing and the ECU determines the injector firing pulse from this. If your Trailing Coil is bad, you won't get a trigger signal, and the injectors won't fire. Quick test - move the white wire from the Trailing coil to the Lead Coil (same position at the bottom spade), and see if the car will start and run normally. If it does - your Trailing Coil is bad - OR, your Trailing Coil Ignitor is bad. Your car would be running pretty rich if that were the case, and while you can run it from Leading Spark only using the Lead Coil as your trigger, you'll eventually want to get that coil replaced. If switching the white trigger wire effects no change, put it back on the Trailing Coil where it belongs.
3) Ignitors - The ignitors use the Distributor to tell the ignition system when to fire the coils into the spark plugs. There are 2 Ignitors bolted to the side of the Distributor base. These do go bad from time to time, and you can follow their wiring harness to the Coil they control. The coil pointed at the front of the car is the Leading Ignitor, while the one on the side is the Trailing Ignitor. Remove the rubber boots which protect the wires, and swap the Ignitors. Try to start the car. If the car starts and runs normally, you now have Trail Ignitor firing the Trailing Coil, and a proper Trigger (white wire) to the ECU firing the Injectors, and have also identified that your Trailing Coil (or the one you swapped to the Lead position now) is bad. If no change - put the ignitors back in the positions they came from and dig deeper.
4) Injectors - Typically injectors will fail by overspraying fuel, that is - they get stuck open or partially open, and lead to flooding and rich running conditions. The injectors have a weakness whereby the wiring harness can get brittle over time and cause the electrical connection to break at the harness. These can be replaced by Borg-Warner 'Injector Pigtails' for about $7 each, and is worth looking at as a last resort. You'll want to wire them identically to how they came out, and then see if you get injector pulses - and the car should start and run normally without any other changes. My originals lasted about 185k miles, and then needed to be re-wired. The replacements have gone another 50k without issue and I don't expect to ever replace them. The injectors eventually should be cleaned and flow-balanced for best performance, and RC Engineering does this for a moderate fee. Get the car up an running for now, and consider their services down the road after it's running. Even bad, leaky injectors will allow the car to run if everything else is in order.
5) Main Relays - There are 2 round barrel relays mounted right next to the Brake Master Cylinder on the driver's side fender. These control the ECU power and you should hear them 'click' when you turn the key to 'Run' (not 'Start'). If you're not hearing them click, give them a firm 'whack' with a screwdriver and try again. They're nothing special - just relays to run 12V power to the ECU, but if you're not getting power there, you won't get fuel injector pulse.
6) Fusible Links - As someone else mentioned, the GSL-SE has 5 fusible links in a dark brown plastic mount at the front side of the driver's side wheel well, inside the engine bay (obviously?). One of those links is marked 'INJECTION', and if that link is burned out, no fuel. These are designed to be 'slow-blow' fuses which can carry a higher initial current than a regular fuse could handle. If you tug on both ends of the spade connectors and they're solid, that's good. Also check for continuity with a volt meter to be sure they haven't failed internally or broken and you can't see it. I always carry spare fusible links in my glovebox, just in case.
7 - (this is an RX7 forum, right?) Stuck Air Flow Meter - If you've checked everything else, the air door on the Air Flow Meter could have something jamming it closed or otherwise not be opening smoothly. There's a switch inside the air door which tells the ECU when air is opening the air door as it's being sucked into the engine, and which tells the Fuel Pump to run. This is the same switch you forced to 'ON' with the shunt in step 1, above. If the air door can't move smoothly, the ECU either doesn't register that there's air coming in, or doesn't know HOW MUCH air is coming into the engine, and thus how much fuel should be injected to be burned. Check this by removing the Air Filter lid and the Air Filter, and then running a stick or screwdriver down the throat of the Air Flow Meter until you feel the Air Door resistance. Push the stick in and out and make sure the Air Door is able to travel smoothly and without hitching or catching on anything. This is a longshot, but I thought I'd throw it in there. You could also turn your key to 'Run' (not 'Start') and listen for the Fuel Pump coming on when you open the Air Door manually.
Start with those things, and then report back. The GSL-SE can be a bit of troubleshooting to get it running well, but it's also well worth the effort and once you understand the system, it's rewarding in terms of driving comfort, performance, and reliability. Good luck,
First off - good that you have spark; running it on the starter fluid at least determines that you have solid spark and eliminates that as part of the problem. Your problem sounds like fuel injection - could be injectors, but more likely Ignitors, Coils which trigger the ECU firing the injectors, or the various wiring to the Fuel system.
Don't give up on RE-EGI just yet - it's far more reliable and easier to tune than a carbeurator, in my experience.
Method of Operation;
1) Fuel Pump - Your fuel pump is energized ONLY when the Air Flow Meter tells the ECU that there's air coming into the engine. There's a plastic connector under the Air Flow Meter that can be shunted (paperclip, or 2 spade connectors on a wire) which will run the Fuel Pump even without the engine spinning sucking in air. Be sure you have good fuel pump operation, as there's a 'Circuit Cut' relay on the same mount as the ECU under the passenger footwell which may have gone bad and isn't switching on fuel pump power. If you run the shunt, and can hear the fuel pressure at the rail (or the pump under the car), then your pump is probably fine. Fuel pumps last a good long time, and don't fail very often. If you don't hear fuel pressure, you're back to troubleshooting the pump or the wiring to it. ***Make sure you remove that test shunt under the AFM when you're done, or it can cause flooding if you have leaky injectors...
2) The ECU - To tell the injectors when to fire, the ECU takes a trigger signal from the Trailing Coil (front one on the fender) via a single white wire that goes into the harness from there. That white wire tells the ECU when the trailing plug is firing and the ECU determines the injector firing pulse from this. If your Trailing Coil is bad, you won't get a trigger signal, and the injectors won't fire. Quick test - move the white wire from the Trailing coil to the Lead Coil (same position at the bottom spade), and see if the car will start and run normally. If it does - your Trailing Coil is bad - OR, your Trailing Coil Ignitor is bad. Your car would be running pretty rich if that were the case, and while you can run it from Leading Spark only using the Lead Coil as your trigger, you'll eventually want to get that coil replaced. If switching the white trigger wire effects no change, put it back on the Trailing Coil where it belongs.
3) Ignitors - The ignitors use the Distributor to tell the ignition system when to fire the coils into the spark plugs. There are 2 Ignitors bolted to the side of the Distributor base. These do go bad from time to time, and you can follow their wiring harness to the Coil they control. The coil pointed at the front of the car is the Leading Ignitor, while the one on the side is the Trailing Ignitor. Remove the rubber boots which protect the wires, and swap the Ignitors. Try to start the car. If the car starts and runs normally, you now have Trail Ignitor firing the Trailing Coil, and a proper Trigger (white wire) to the ECU firing the Injectors, and have also identified that your Trailing Coil (or the one you swapped to the Lead position now) is bad. If no change - put the ignitors back in the positions they came from and dig deeper.
4) Injectors - Typically injectors will fail by overspraying fuel, that is - they get stuck open or partially open, and lead to flooding and rich running conditions. The injectors have a weakness whereby the wiring harness can get brittle over time and cause the electrical connection to break at the harness. These can be replaced by Borg-Warner 'Injector Pigtails' for about $7 each, and is worth looking at as a last resort. You'll want to wire them identically to how they came out, and then see if you get injector pulses - and the car should start and run normally without any other changes. My originals lasted about 185k miles, and then needed to be re-wired. The replacements have gone another 50k without issue and I don't expect to ever replace them. The injectors eventually should be cleaned and flow-balanced for best performance, and RC Engineering does this for a moderate fee. Get the car up an running for now, and consider their services down the road after it's running. Even bad, leaky injectors will allow the car to run if everything else is in order.
5) Main Relays - There are 2 round barrel relays mounted right next to the Brake Master Cylinder on the driver's side fender. These control the ECU power and you should hear them 'click' when you turn the key to 'Run' (not 'Start'). If you're not hearing them click, give them a firm 'whack' with a screwdriver and try again. They're nothing special - just relays to run 12V power to the ECU, but if you're not getting power there, you won't get fuel injector pulse.
6) Fusible Links - As someone else mentioned, the GSL-SE has 5 fusible links in a dark brown plastic mount at the front side of the driver's side wheel well, inside the engine bay (obviously?). One of those links is marked 'INJECTION', and if that link is burned out, no fuel. These are designed to be 'slow-blow' fuses which can carry a higher initial current than a regular fuse could handle. If you tug on both ends of the spade connectors and they're solid, that's good. Also check for continuity with a volt meter to be sure they haven't failed internally or broken and you can't see it. I always carry spare fusible links in my glovebox, just in case.
7 - (this is an RX7 forum, right?) Stuck Air Flow Meter - If you've checked everything else, the air door on the Air Flow Meter could have something jamming it closed or otherwise not be opening smoothly. There's a switch inside the air door which tells the ECU when air is opening the air door as it's being sucked into the engine, and which tells the Fuel Pump to run. This is the same switch you forced to 'ON' with the shunt in step 1, above. If the air door can't move smoothly, the ECU either doesn't register that there's air coming in, or doesn't know HOW MUCH air is coming into the engine, and thus how much fuel should be injected to be burned. Check this by removing the Air Filter lid and the Air Filter, and then running a stick or screwdriver down the throat of the Air Flow Meter until you feel the Air Door resistance. Push the stick in and out and make sure the Air Door is able to travel smoothly and without hitching or catching on anything. This is a longshot, but I thought I'd throw it in there. You could also turn your key to 'Run' (not 'Start') and listen for the Fuel Pump coming on when you open the Air Door manually.
Start with those things, and then report back. The GSL-SE can be a bit of troubleshooting to get it running well, but it's also well worth the effort and once you understand the system, it's rewarding in terms of driving comfort, performance, and reliability. Good luck,
Last edited by LongDuck; 02-26-17 at 02:37 PM.
02-27-17, 10:53 PM
#12
84SE-EGI helpy-helperton
Omar - post back with what you found out. I know everyone's curious what fixed it, and it's a data point for the rest of us on what to look for. Good luck,
03-10-17, 12:36 AM
#14
84SE-EGI helpy-helperton
Well, the guy joined in May of 2011 and has 11 total posts.
I can only hope that it fixed his problem for another few years and then he'll show up again to ask questions. At least it keeps another FB on the roads, right?
I can only hope that it fixed his problem for another few years and then he'll show up again to ask questions. At least it keeps another FB on the roads, right?
03-10-17, 02:19 PM
#16
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Just put engine in
Thank you
every one on the forum
i decided to convert to carburetor
it is simple, car looks nice, parts for fuel injection are expensive because of places like Mazda trix
Will post pics
03-10-17, 02:44 PM
#17
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Also parts not easy to find, but all of you know that already.
i posted some pics
now trying to install holley blue pump, pressure regulator and relay.
i was hoping to use the old lines
I tried the recommendations
The injectors relay was good, the coils were good, there was fuel all the way to the injectors, the fuel pump was new, filter new, gas tank new, car did not start, only when I apply starting fluid to throttle body
i posted some pics
now trying to install holley blue pump, pressure regulator and relay.
i was hoping to use the old lines
I tried the recommendations
The injectors relay was good, the coils were good, there was fuel all the way to the injectors, the fuel pump was new, filter new, gas tank new, car did not start, only when I apply starting fluid to throttle body
03-10-17, 02:48 PM
#18
ancient wizard...
Best of luck to you with your conversion. Did you pull out the original SE engine and install another or strip the FI parts from your engine and install carb and intake? What are your plans for Fi intake parts?